The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist

[Davy]

The point I was making about a pre-70 AD date for Revelation is, that view has been held in the history of the church, centuries past, so that keeps it within orthodoxy. One can be mired down in the various arguments about the dating for Revelation. For me, there is no way possible that the following symbolism could have been written after the temple was destroyed. The idea of a revived Roman Empire and a rebuilt temple is pure nonsense with no clear scriptural basis -

"Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, “Come and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample over the holy city for forty-two months." (Rev 11:1-2 NRSV)

No one can convince me that was written after the temple had been destroyed 25 years earlier. For those who like the intricate arguments about the dating, John A. T. Robinson's 1976 book treats this beginning at page 197. On page 203 I lift the following paragraphs out of a long chapter -

Men's doctrines are simply academic type traps, even your so-called 'Orthodox Preterism', which tends to envelope everything in Christ's Olivet discourse of Matthew 24 and Mark 13 into PAST HISTORY of the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem and the 2nd temple.

And it was confirmed long ago that Apostle John was in prison on the isle of Patmos under the reign of emperor Domitian, which places the date after... the 70 A.D. destruction of the temple.

As far as the 'writing' of Lord's Book of Revelation providing ANY proof of being written prior to the destruction of the 2nd temple, there is NONE in Revelation.

The Revelation 11:1-2 verses about a standing stone temple, and those who worship in it, and the Gentiles treading the holy city linked with its outer court, that is declared during the time of the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. The 3 Woe Periods first mentioned in Rev.8 serve as 3 main time periods of various events leading up to the 'day' of Christ's future return on the LAST Woe period, the 3rd Woe. That places the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period to mean just prior to Christ's future return. And that 42 months mentioned there in Rev.11 is pointing to the same time the "dragon" is given power over the saints, and over all nations per Rev.13:4-8. That places those events AT THE VERY END OF THIS WORLD, STILL FUTURE TO US.

Because of men's deceived doctrines, some of them wrongly interpret the "temple of God" in Revelation 11 to mean the Church, when it is not the Church. Those deceived men only dream up such an idea because of false Preterist thinking with trying to place everything in the past. So when this 3rd Jewish temple is built in Jerusalem by the orthodox Jews in our near future, then you can get back with me on this matter. And those orthodox Jews in today's Jerusalem already... have the materials ready to build their new temple in Jerusalem, even the temple artifacts required for old covenant worship.

I am not a dispensationalist, nor do I believe in a pre-trib rapture theory. I believe what God's Word says, Jesus comes to END the coming time of "great tribulation", which has been shortened for His elect's sake. Then He begins His future "thousand years" reign, here on earth, with His elect, over all nations and peoples, as written in Rev.20 and Zechariah 14, and Ezekiel 40 thru 47.

 

[Timtofly]

Do you "understand" me to have made such a claim, Timtofly? Because I have not; such would be quite stupid... and neither has Covenantee... But Covenantee and I would both agree that in God's Israel, which is very different than the nation-state called Israel since 1948, and physical ethnicities, while certainly a physical reality in the past, present, and future, have no bearing on whether one is of God's Israel in the past, present, or future, but only whether he or she has been called by God or not.


Of course not, because he didn't make it. Again: goodness gracious.

Grace and peace to you.

You just did in the post before this:

God's Israel was never and never will be a physical state in the way Egypt or any other nation-state was or is.

Pretty sure God brought physical Israel out of Egypt a long time ago. I accept it was a nation with a distinct ethnicity. They were His people. 1 Kings 8:15-16

"And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, which spake with his mouth unto David my father, and hath with his hand fulfilled it, saying, Since the day that I brought forth my people Israel out of Egypt, I chose no city out of all the tribes of Israel to build an house, that my name might be therein; but I chose David to be over my people Israel."

"Now when Solomon had made an end of praying, the fire came down from heaven, and consumed the burnt offering and the sacrifices; and the glory of the Lord filled the house.... And the Lord appeared to Solomon by night, and said unto him, I have heard thy prayer, and have chosen this place to myself for an house of sacrifice.... If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people; If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. Now mine eyes shall be open, and mine ears attent unto the prayer that is made in this place. For now have I chosen and sanctified this house, that my name may be there for ever: and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually."

We do know that Israel was the physical ethnicity that God called His people. We know that Paul said Israel will be blind in part until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. There is no verse in Scripture that declares erhnic Israel came to a complete and final end at the Cross.

Not all of ethnic Israel made it into the church. But only because they were cut off. That is the point of the Olive Tree symbolism. Now to be in Christ, God's people, post the Cross, ethnicity does not matter. There are no natural branches, period. All individuals have to be grafted in, symbolically.

I have made no claims the blindness has been removed from Israel. But there has to be descendants of Jacob to be turned into natural branches, even though Paul never made that point specifically. Do you think the church is not still provoking Israel to repentance? Was that only applicable in the first century?

"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy."

But blindness will be removed:

"And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes."

Do you take this to heart and see them as truly enemies? As you deny a future restoration, and a return to ethnic Israel, a people still called by God's name. They will still be considered sheep and all of Israel will be redeemed and placed back into Adam's pre-disobedient state. That is what election means. Election is not part of the Law. Election has been available to all humans since Noah and his family left the ark.

Here is the declaration of the 7th Trumpet when Jesus as King of Israel is declared:

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

"There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins."

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

This is post the fulness of the Gentiles. This is ethnic Israel once again called out of Egypt for the final time. This is when sin is removed and everlasting righteousness declared. This is the firstfruits of the Day of the Lord. After cleaning house (the whole earth), all of Israel will be redeemed, as the chief nation above all nations.

 

[Timtofly]

The point is you are unable to provide a link to any post in which I've made such a claim.

Yes, totally agree. The problem with Marks is that he believes that God's choice was and is based on physical DNA, while I have continuously reemphasized that it was and is based on spiritual DNA, i.e. faith and obedience.

Which means that I am excluding the unfaithful and disobedient, irrespective of their physical DNA.

Whom God also excluded, as seen from many thousands of corpses of unfaithful disobedient Israelites.

 

[covenantee]

What's this?

 

[Timtofly]

God is not building Israel. he is building his church or his body, or the body of Christ. people need to seperate Israel and the church, they are not the same

I agree with most of what you have posted. Not sure if I have ever replied to this point, but may have.

I am not against separation. But Israel is only relatable to God's people whose ethnicity assures them a chance as long as they keep the Law of Moses. That is why the church is different, and not based on ethnicity post the Cross. The dynamic changed from ethnicity to that unseen kingdom of heaven. In fact the whole of those OT branches never cut off are currently enjoying Paradise that physical unseen place. We cannot say who all God allowed into Paradise still as natural branches, just like we cannot judge each human's heart today and their personal relationship with Christ.

When under the OT economy Israel was by ethnicity. There was no separation of church and state. There was not a separation between physical Israel and spiritual Israel. They were naturally born into God's family, until kicked out, or as Paul's analogy a natural branch cut off.

The name Israel was removed from them, as they were no longer God's people. But the ethnicity of Jacob went on and many are still called Jews to this day. Should they have taken the name Israel in 1948? I doubt it matters either way. That generation, and the generations since then are back in the spotlight as people Paul would have embraced as Israel, even though still blind in part and still natural branches still cut off.

But as we see in Matthew 25, many will still remain cut off and named goats. That is still the mystery for God to hold. Only God can pick and choose who are His and who are not. It is not up to humans to decide. The church though until that point of being caught up at the Second Coming, can choose God without denial of being included in God's family, the church.

While many acknowledge we are no longer ethnic people of God, they tend to force the churches current position back onto those living under the Law. Then they criticize us posters who point out Israel will be restored, thinking we are being like them and forcing the Law back onto the church.

The church won't even be on the earth, just like the OT have not returned to earth post the Cross. Not sure on what you see for the future earth. I just see people living generation after generation as has happened since the beginning. I do see Israel restored as well as many other nations until the thousand year reign of Christ as King is fulfilled per Revelation 20 and 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

I don't think the Law of Moses nor current salvation by faith applies during the next millennium. For one there is no need for faith when there is no spiritual blindness nor separation from God. If people think Daniel 9:24 applies now, even more so when Jesus is the King of the earth. It will be natural obedience, not a natural sin nature that defines life on earth. Isaiah 65. Also all on earth will see God on the GWT always present on earth. That was not even the case prior to the Flood as far as we know.

 

[Timtofly]

What's this?

You condemning the world??

 

[covenantee]

You condemning the world??

Link to my post containing the words "condemning" and "world".

 

[Timtofly]

Now, again, on "descendants of Abraham Isaac, and Jacob," remember what Paul said in Romans 2, namely that "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter."

Which part of Matthew 25 portrays an inward perspective?

"And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents."

I fully get that God looks at one's heart and sees who trust God and who don't. I also don't see circumcision as pertaining to anything but sacrifice of obedience. If one did the outward act even in the OT, but was never sincere in the heart, it never mattered anyway. It was done as a point of pain and giving up something physical as obedience, even the physical act. Having it done as a baby, never meant anything to that individual, as it was not the baby's choice. So how could it being done to a child serve any purpose, other than someone's obedience to God?

So the point was not that the act changed, but was still based on one's heart, even in the OT. So your point cannot be based on the physical act any more than the act of the heart. Circumcision is not hereditary and automatic like ethnicity.

Obedience to the Law of Moses was 100% physical. But the physical is still 100% related to the heart. Even more so than today. We can see it is not easy to live by the law, and neither is living by grace easy. How would anyone know one was circumcised or not. Seems rather as private as one's heart.

 

[Timtofly]

Link to my post containing the words "condemning" and "world".

Link to a post that states that as a declaration and not a question.

 

[covenantee]

Link to a post that states that as a declaration and not a question.

Link to your own posts.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wait... Leviticus 6? Or Leviticus 26, which you specified before? Regardless, the civil and ceremonial law is in effect no longer, as the writer of Hebrews is very clear on in chapter 7 of that letter:

"Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron? For when there is a change in the priesthood, there is necessarily a change in the law as well... For on the one hand, a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God." (Hebrews 7:11-19)​

Since the coming of Christ Jesus. Only the moral law remains. Jesus said Himself that the law hangs on two commandments, loving God (with all your heart, mind, and strength) and loving your neighbor (everyone else).

Lev 26, concerning the nation israel living in their land in peace

40 ‘But if they confess their iniquity and the iniquity of their fathers, with their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, and that they also have walked contrary to Me,
41 and that I also have walked contrary to them and have brought them into the land of their enemies;
if their uncircumcised hearts are humbled, and they accept their guilt—
42 then I will remember My covenant with Jacob, and My covenant with Isaac and My covenant with Abraham I will remember;
I will remember the land.

Is this not what I have said many times? It is...

If you did, I did not see it.. forgive me

Ohhhhh yes... it does... :)

No it does not

Gentiles were not promised land..

Lev 26 was not given to gentiles

The law was not given to Gentiles.

Right, so, you don't mean to be, certainly, but you're contradicting the first part of this sentence you wrote (above) with this second part. Quite incredible.

I did not contradict anything, read the OT/ Israel will be in her land, With Jesus himself as king. Nations (gentiles) will come to jerusalem once a year. To worship the king.. they come from their own land. Not the land promise to israel

Its quite incredible that you do not know this part

Israel was not a nation-state ~ a nationality in that sense ~ until 1948. But yes, way back and even now, he calls ethnic Jews and makes them a part of His Israel.

Israel is still in sin, i do nto consider the isreal in her land restored israel. She still has many wars to go. Rev 13 says the last Great War God himself will need to protect her 9the woman)

Hmmm... well there's a general call to repent and believe, sure. This is the outward call, and it goes out to everyone. But there's an inward call issued by God via His Holy Spirit, and this is issued only to His elect and does not fail to save ~ to make the individual receiving this call part of His Israel, the Israel of God.

I am a member of the body of Christ, not the Israel of God..

I was not promised land, or peace int hat land if I am obedient and follow God. If anything, I am promised tribulation and suffering..

Not what I'm saying... :)


LOL! No... <SIGH>


I never said God is done with Israel, Eternally Grateful. Never. So no, I don't in any way do what you think I'm doing. And I keep saying that, and you keep foisting it on me. It's astounding.


Of course not; I agree! Holy moly. But the smaller points to the greater; it is the lesser manifestation of the greater. Wow.


Right... I acknowledged that before... but it was worth speaking to.


I see Covenantee as asking you pointed ~ and what should be leading ~ questions. But not attacking. But I can understand feeling like you are being attacked.

Grace and peace to you, Eternally Grateful.

So you believe that Jesus will come back, Israel will repent. Be restored to her land. And Jesus will rule with a Rod of Iron from HIS FATHERS house in JERUSALEM?

 

[St. SteVen]

Wow, no bias in that thread title. - LOL
I thought Preterist was heretical and Dispensationalist was... maybe okay?

The Orthodox Preterist versus the Heretical Dispensationalist​

 

[PinSeeker]

Which part of Matthew 25 portrays an inward perspective?

I'm a bit puzzled as to why you would ask this question about Matthew 25 in response to my quoting Paul in Romans 2:28-29... but no matter...

"And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents."

We could use this, or the parable of the ten virgins above, but it's even more clear in Jesus's graphic description of the final Judgment in Matthew 25:31-46. The ones on His left He never had hearts of mercy, as Paul says of being born of God in Ephesians 2 ~ some are made alive together with Christ and are thus God's workmanship created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God created beforehand, that they should walk in them... and some are not. It is a matter of the heart, the inward being, which God makes alive... or not.

I fully get that God looks at one's heart and sees who trust God and who don't.

Hmmm... well, He Himself regenerates the heart (or not) by rebirth of the Holy Spirit. Yes, God sees the heart and we don't, for sure, but He is the one that makes us a new creation in Christ, creates us ~ again in Paul's words in Ephesians 2 ~ creates us in Christ Jesus for good works, that we should walk in them. Our conversion to Christ is a work of God, by His grace saved through faith, and this is not our own doing, it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that we may not boast.

I also don't see circumcision as pertaining to anything but sacrifice of obedience. If one did the outward act even in the OT, but was never sincere in the heart, it never mattered anyway. It was done as a point of pain and giving up something physical as obedience, even the physical act. Having it done as a baby, never meant anything to that individual, as it was not the baby's choice. So how could it being done to a child serve any purpose, other than someone's obedience to God?

Very interesting (and very good) question! :) Circumcision in the Old Testament and baptism in the New is really about the parents acknowledging that their child is a gift to them from God, dedicating their child to God in faith that He will one day work in their baby's heart giving him/her a saving faith, and promising God that they will bring him/her up in the admonition of the Lord. A lot more could be said about this, but that should be enough for now, except to say circumcision in the Old Testament and baptism in the New, both outward signs and works of men, never saved anyone. Now, in the case of someone who was never baptized as an infant, that's okay, it can be done at any age, just... as soon as possible. :) The infant's choice is not

So the point was not that the act changed, but was still based on one's heart, even in the OT.

Right, agree; see above.

So your point cannot be based on the physical act any more than the act of the heart. Circumcision is not hereditary and automatic like ethnicity.

Agree. But the outward act of circumcision was, and baptism now should, be done as early in life as possible. As parents, they were and we are calling in faith on God's promise to work in that child's life and call him/her to Himself. And our prayer is that he/she would never know a day when he/she did not know Jesus Christ as his/her Lord.

Obedience to the Law of Moses was 100% physical. But the physical is still 100% related to the heart. Even more so than today.

Hmmm, this statement is a little confusing. You would agree, Timtofly, would you not, that one can go through the motions, as it were, and obey in that way, but in compulsion rather than proceeding from the heart, no? I mean, just as an example, regarding our giving, we are commanded by God to do this just as those in Old Testament times were, but Paul exhorts the Christians at Corinth (and us by extension) to do this as we decide is appropriate in our heart and therefore to be cheerful givers, and not reluctantly or according to compulsion (1 Corinthians 9:7). Incidentally, this is why God honored Abel's offering and not Cain's, and that was in Genesis 4, as I'm sure you remember.

We can see it is not easy to live by the law, and neither is living by grace easy.

Well, right, but Jesus's yoke is easy, with we take upon us to learn from Him, for He is gentle and lowly in heart, and we will find rest for our souls. Yes, His yoke is easy, His burden light (Matthew 11:29-30), as opposed to that of the Civil/Ceremonial Law, right? This is the Law of Christ that Paul speaks of.

How would anyone know one was circumcised or not.

It was an outward sign and a public act, just as baptism is now.

Seems rather as private as one's heart.

Well, yes, circumcision of the heart, just as baptism by the Spirit, which is what really matters, is a work of God and an inward matter. It is "private" in the sense that no one actually sees it done, even the receiver. As Jesus says to Nicodemus in John 3 regarding being born again of the Spirit, using the wind as a metaphor, "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." But the natural result of it is cheerful obedience to and abundant praise for God, and can be seen by all.

Grace and peace to you!

 

[PinSeeker]

Gentiles were not promised land...

Gentile believers are heirs according to the promise... "...if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3:29).

Lev 26 was not given to gentiles

Not immediately, no. I have never asserted otherwise.

The law was not given to Gentiles.

Well, but the law does serve a purpose for us; it is a mirror that pushes us to Christ. And if we are Christ’s, then we are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise (Galatians 3:29). And that includes the land, which, as I have said, is not merely a strip of land in the Middle East, the Lesser Promised Land, but the whole earth, the Greater Promised Land, which the Lesser points to.

Israel will be in her land, With Jesus himself as king...

Right, and we are in part now, but when He returns, in full. This is the now-and-not-yet aspect of the Gospel.

Nations (gentiles) will come to jerusalem once a year. To worship the king.. they come from their own land. Not the land promise to israel

Disagree. No offense, and this is surely not an insult to your intelligence, though it may come across that way, but your thinking on this is far, far too small.

I am a member of the body of Christ, not the Israel of God.

And I say that if you are a member of the body of Christ, then you also are a member of the Israel of God. Again, your thinking regarding the Israel of God is far too small.

I was not promised land, or peace in that land if I am obedient and follow God. If anything, I am promised tribulation and suffering.

If you are in Christ, you are promised all these things, although:

1.) the tribulation and suffering are in this life only, but there will be no such thing in eternity, the new heaven and new earth (John 16:33, Revelation 1:9)​

​

2.) the land that you will inherit will be the whole earth (Matthew 5:5) and the peace you receive will be Jesus Himself and His rest (you have these things now, but not yet in full)​

So you believe that Jesus will come back, Israel will repent

Well, really the other way around. I do believe that after the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in ~ to the Israel of God ~ then the partial hardening now on Israel will be removed, and in this way, all of Israel will be saved. This is exactly what Paul says in Romans 11:25-26.

...be restored to her land...

yes, the whole earth, the Greater Promised Land.

And Jesus will rule with a Rod of Iron from HIS FATHERS house in JERUSALEM?

Well, Jesus will strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty (Revelation 19:15). This is a metaphorical description of the final victory of Jesus over all evil, sin, and death after the end of the present age.

Grace and peace to you, EG.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Gentile believers are heirs according to the promise... "...if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3:29).

yes, the promise "in you shall all ther nations of the world be blessed"

we are talking about a different promise, only given to one people group

Not immediately, no. I have never asserted otherwise.

it was never given to Gentiles.. No gentile nation was promised peace if they obeyed. and no gentile nation was promised if they disobey they would be punished, successfully 7 times greater up to being removed from your land and scattered all over the world and your cities laid waste

Well, but the law does serve a purpose for us; it is a mirror that pushes us to Christ. And if we are Christ’s, then we are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise (Galatians 3:29). And that includes the land, which, as I have said, is not merely a strip of land in the Middle East, the Lesser Promised Land, but the whole earth, the Greater Promised Land, which the Lesser points to.

No, the lesser does not point to that.

I was not promised the whole earth either.. I was promised the new heaven and new earth. this earth will pass away

Right, and we are in part now, but when He returns, in full. This is the now-and-not-yet aspect of the Gospel.

It has nothing to do with the gospel.

Disagree. No offense, and this is surely not an insult to your intelligence, though it may come across that way, but your thinking on this is far, far too small.

You disagree with the word then.

Zech 14: 16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the [i]punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

And I say that if you are a member of the body of Christ, then you also are a member of the Israel of God. Again, your thinking regarding the Israel of God is far too small.

If you are in Christ, you are promised all these things, although:

1.) the tribulation and suffering are in this life only, but there will be no such thing in eternity, the new heaven and new earth (John 16:33, Revelation 1:9)​

​

2.) the land that you will inherit will be the whole earth (Matthew 5:5) and the peace you receive will be Jesus Himself and His rest (you have these things now, but not yet in full)​

Well, really the other way around. I do believe that after the fullness of the Gentiles has been brought in ~ to the Israel of God ~ then the partial hardening now on Israel will be removed, and in this way, all of Israel will be saved. This is exactly what Paul says in Romans 11:25-26.

Thats a misrepresentation of Rom 11. Romans 9 - 11 is Paul making known that God did not make a mistake chosing national ISRAEL. AND THAT God is not done with them

again, No gentile is part of that covenant.

yes, the whole earth, the Greater Promised Land.

then why are we not living in peace.. and how can we be punished and removed from our land if we do not obey?

Well, Jesus will strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty (Revelation 19:15). This is a metaphorical description of the final victory of Jesus over all evil, sin, and death after the end of the present age.

Grace and peace to you, EG.

Yes, and he will rule the nations. And Israel will be back in her land, because she repented.. and Christ rule rule from Davids house.

 

[PinSeeker]

we are talking about a different promise, only given to one people group

It's really not a different promise, Eternally Grateful, but rather the lesser, immediate manifestation of the greater, with the lesser pointing to the greater. You get that, no? Surely you do.

it was never given to Gentiles.

Not immediately, no. I will agree with you insofar as that.

No gentile nation was promised peace if they obeyed. and no gentile nation was promised if they disobey they would be punished, successfully 7 times greater up to being removed from your land and scattered all over the world and your cities laid waste

Right, not immediately, no.

No, the lesser does not point to that.

Okay, well, we obviously disagree.

I was not promised the whole earth either.

If you are in Christ, you are one of the meek (Matthew 5:5), and you most certainly are promised that, as are all those who are in Christ, past, present, and future.

I was promised the new heaven and new earth. this earth will pass away

Ah, well, in Revelation 21, Eternally Grateful, God says, "Behold, I am making all things new." Surely you understand the difference between Him saying that and, on the other hand, "Behold, I am making all new things." He is restoring the things He made to their rightful state ~ to the condition they were in before the fall of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 ~ and in this way making all things new.

It has nothing to do with the gospel.

Oh, my...

You disagree with the word then.

Oh, my... No, I disagree with your understanding of God's Word, at least in the context we are talking about.

Zech 14: 16...

An immediate, lesser fulfillment, and an ultimate, greater fulfillment...

Thats a misrepresentation of Rom 11.

Well, according to your, um, understanding... :) of Romans 11, yes, but, well, in my opinion, at least, you do not understand it correctly, so, in view of what your representation is, you're calling it a "misrespresentation" is a good thing. :) We disagree; we can leave it at that, I think.

Romans 9 - 11 is Paul making known that God did not make a mistake choosing national ISRAEL. AND THAT God is not done with them

Disagree. Clearly, really throughout Romans, but especially Romans 9:6-8, where Paul (ultimately God, by His Spirit) says, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named'... this means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring"; the Israel of God is not the same as "national Israel." I well understand that that is the dispensational understanding, but Scripture is covenantal, not dispensational.

again, No gentile is part of that covenant.

In the lesser, immediate sense no, but in the larger, greater sense yes. All the promises of God have their yes and amen in Christ Jesus.

then why are we not living in peace...?

Because Jesus has not returned and thus defeated sin and death permanently... yet, but He will. So, we can have peace now, but not fully... yet. But we will have it in full... Yes, the LORD is our shepherd, and we shall not want. He makes us lie down in green pastures, leads us beside still waters, and restores our souls, leading us in paths of righteousness for His name's sake. Even though we walk through the valley of death, we should fear no evil, because He is with us, He prepares a table for us even in the presence of our enemies. He anoints our heads with oil, and our cups overflow. Goodness and mercy will follow us all the days of our lives, and we will dwell in the house of the LORD forever (Psalm 23). Do you not think this is true for you, too, Eternally Grateful? You do, I know... :)

...how can we be punished and removed from our land if we do not obey?

Well, God does "reprove and discipline those He loves, you know, and chastises every son whom He receives" (Hebrews 12:5-6; Revelation 3:19). So even today, we can receive judgments from God... But thanks be to God, His keeping His promises does not depend on our behavior, except in the sense that, because He has taken out our hearts of stone, our behavior will ultimately be what He wants it to be, as we can see from what Ezekiel writes in chapter 36 of His prophecy, which has an immediate, lesser fulfillment and an ultimate, greater fulfillment, which is the pattern of all Biblical prophecy:

"I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be My people, and I will be your God." (Ezekiel 36:24-28)​

Regarding the land, when Jesus says, in Matthew 5:5 ~ and really all of what we call the Beatitudes ~ "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth," He is speaking of the ultimate, greater fulfillment of God's promise(s). As we read in Revelation 5, Christ Jesus ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and He has made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth (Revelation 5:9-10).

Yes, and he will rule the nations. And Israel will be back in her land, because she repented.. and Christ rule rule from David's house.

Right, well, in the much greater sense of the land and David's house. Jesus is the Greater David. And it's actually David's throne, which is to say His position and preeminence over Israel, which in David's day was national Israel (I agree with you insofar as that), but was only a type/shadow of the Israel of God, which consists of all God's elect. That little strip of land on the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea will be far to small to contain that innumerable multitude, described in Revelation 7. :)

Grace and peace to you, Eternally Grateful.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

It's really not a different promise, Eternally Grateful, but rather the lesser, immediate manifestation of the greater, with the lesser pointing to the greater. You get that, no? Surely you do.

No it is a different promise

God made a covenant with Abraham.

within that covenant, he made a clause which was just for one people group.

Not immediately, no. I will agree with you insofar as that.


Right, not immediately, no.


Okay, well, we obviously disagree.


If you are in Christ, you are one of the meek (Matthew 5:5), and you most certainly are promised that, as are all those who are in Christ, past, present, and future.


Ah, well, in Revelation 21, Eternally Grateful, God says, "Behold, I am making all things new." Surely you understand the difference between Him saying that and, on the other hand, "Behold, I am making all new things." He is restoring the things He made to their rightful state ~ to the condition they were in before the fall of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3 ~ and in this way making all things new.


Oh, my...


Oh, my... No, I disagree with your understanding of God's Word, at least in the context we are talking about.


An immediate, lesser fulfillment, and an ultimate, greater fulfillment...


Well, according to your, um, understanding... :) of Romans 11, yes, but, well, in my opinion, at least, you do not understand it correctly, so, in view of what your representation is, you're calling it a "misrespresentation" is a good thing. :) We disagree; we can leave it at that, I think.


Disagree. Clearly, really throughout Romans, but especially Romans 9:6-8, where Paul (ultimately God, by His Spirit) says, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but 'Through Isaac shall your offspring be named'... this means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring"; the Israel of God is not the same as "national Israel." I well understand that that is the dispensational understanding, but Scripture is covenantal, not dispensational.


In the lesser, immediate sense no, but in the larger, greater sense yes. All the promises of God have their yes and amen in Christ Jesus.


Because Jesus has not returned and thus defeated sin and death permanently... yet, but He will. So, we can have peace now, but not fully... yet. But we will have it in full... Yes, the LORD is our shepherd, and we shall not want. He makes us lie down in green pastures, leads us beside still waters, and restores our souls, leading us in paths of righteousness for His name's sake. Even though we walk through the valley of death, we should fear no evil, because He is with us, He prepares a table for us even in the presence of our enemies. He anoints our heads with oil, and our cups overflow. Goodness and mercy will follow us all the days of our lives, and we will dwell in the house of the LORD forever (Psalm 23). Do you not think this is true for you, too, Eternally Grateful? You do, I know... :)


Well, God does "reprove and discipline those He loves, you know, and chastises every son whom He receives" (Hebrews 12:5-6; Revelation 3:19). So even today, we can receive judgments from God... But thanks be to God, His keeping His promises does not depend on our behavior, except in the sense that, because He has taken out our hearts of stone, our behavior will ultimately be what He wants it to be, as we can see from what Ezekiel writes in chapter 36 of His prophecy, which has an immediate, lesser fulfillment and an ultimate, greater fulfillment, which is the pattern of all Biblical prophecy:

"I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in My statutes and be careful to obey My rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be My people, and I will be your God." (Ezekiel 36:24-28)​

Regarding the land, when Jesus says, in Matthew 5:5 ~ and really all of what we call the Beatitudes ~ "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth," He is speaking of the ultimate, greater fulfillment of God's promise(s). As we read in Revelation 5, Christ Jesus ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, and He has made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth (Revelation 5:9-10).


Right, well, in the much greater sense of the land and David's house. Jesus is the Greater David. And it's actually David's throne, which is to say His position and preeminence over Israel, which in David's day was national Israel (I agree with you insofar as that), but was only a type/shadow of the Israel of God, which consists of all God's elect. That little strip of land on the eastern end of the Mediterranean Sea will be far to small to contain that innumerable multitude, described in Revelation 7. :)

Grace and peace to you, Eternally Grateful.

God keeps his promises

His gifts and calling are irrevocable. for this reason. Israel is an enemy concerning the gospel. but beloved concerning the election. (romans 11)

God said he would prove to the world he is the one true God through that nation he chose and separated unto himself.

he said continuously when he retuns them to their own land and makes them one nation again, not only would THEY know he is the one true God. but the world who witnesses their return will know (ps. 1948 is not the return, Israel is still in sin.

if God does not keep his promise to them, I have no trust he will keep his promise to me..

 

[covenantee]

he said continuously when he retuns them to their own land and makes them one nation again, not only would THEY know he is the one true God. but the world who witnesses their return will know (ps. 1948 is not the return, Israel is still in sin.

if God does not keep his promise to them, I have no trust he will keep his promise to me..

I see you've swapped your 100 ounces of gold for silver.

 

[PinSeeker]

No it is a different promise

Well, I don't disagree, but I don't agree either. Or, better put, I both agree in one sense and disagree in another.

God keeps his promises

Certainly.

His gifts and calling are irrevocable...

Absolutely...

...for this reason. Israel is an enemy concerning the gospel. but beloved concerning the election. (romans 11)

Ah, Romans 11:28, a very misunderstood (by many) verse... Paul is saying that as a corporate body, ethnic Israel is presently opposed to the Lord. This is the partial hardening that he has just spoken of In Romans 11:26. But the same corporate Israel is "beloved for the sake of their forefathers," so yes, God continues in His faithfulness to love the collective whole of ethnic Israel because of His promises to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. We know that God will never "abhor [the Jews] so as to destroy them utterly and break [His] covenant" that He made with them (Leviticus 26:44), as you pointed out. I'm not sure whether you think otherwise or not, but this is not a promise to save each and every person of Jewish descent, for "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel" (Romans 9:6). In verse 6 alone Paul distinguishes between what you call national Israel and His true Israel. God absolutely does promise that He will never cast off the Jews as a whole (again, Leviticus 26:44). He will some number (maybe most; we don't know the percentage) of them so that we can speak of the salvation of Israel, even if not every single Jew who has ever lived will be saved, even if if not every single Jew who has ever lived, in view of Romans 9:6, will be members of God's true Israel. Yes, He will not go back on His word (Romans 11:29).

God said he would prove to the world he is the one true God through that nation he chose and separated unto himself.

And Gentiles are now included in that. Again, a true Jew is one who is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not the letter. This is speaking directly to the Lord's promise of the New Covenant through Jeremiah:

"Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more" (Jeremiah 31:31-34).​

If you don't understand Gentiles to be full partakers of this, then... Well, you're your own person. But He has put His law within us, and He has written it on our hearts, those of us who are in Christ, regardless of ethnicity. All in Christ, past, present, and future, are together the Israel of God. And we shall inherit the true Promised Land, the earth.

if God does not keep his promise to them, I have no trust he will keep his promise to me.

Sure, well, see above... :)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

No it is a different promise

God made a covenant with Abraham.

within that covenant, he made a clause which was just for one people group.

I guess you think you know something Paul didn't know?

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

God keeps his promises

Of course. We all believe that.

His gifts and calling are irrevocable. for this reason. Israel is an enemy concerning the gospel. but beloved concerning the election. (romans 11)

This is not what Paul said. You need to read all of Romans 11 in order to understand what he was saying in Romans 11:28.

Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. 7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Notice here that Paul differentiated between the "remnant according to the election of grace" (which he also called "the election") and "the rest" who "were blinded".

Keep that in mind while reading this:

Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

Who "are enemies for your sakes"? That would be "the rest" who "were blinded". Surely, "the election" who were remnant of believers were not enemies for the Gentiles sakes. And who "are beloved for the father's sakes"? Does that include "the rest" who "were blinded"? Of course not. People like the Pharisees and scribes that Jesus ranted against were not beloved. It was "the election", the remnant of believers, who were beloved.

God said he would prove to the world he is the one true God through that nation he chose and separated unto himself.

No, He proved it through His Son who died for the sins of the whole world. It's also proven by what He has made (Romans 1:18-20).

he said continuously when he retuns them to their own land and makes them one nation again, not only would THEY know he is the one true God. but the world who witnesses their return will know (ps. 1948 is not the return, Israel is still in sin.

if God does not keep his promise to them, I have no trust he will keep his promise to me..

You have no authority to dictate how God keeps His promises. What more does God need to do for them than to send His only Son to die for their sins, as He did long ago? Your way of thinking is carnal. You place more importance on a useless piece of land than on eternal salvation. Those who know God are looking for "a better country" which is "heavenly" and "a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God" (Hebrews 11:8-16).