The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Tong2020]

John 1:12 does not say that "To them who became the children of God, them He gave the power to receive Him."

It is placed in the opposite order.

First you receive Him, and then you are given the right to become a child of God.

This is what John 1:12 says “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: “

And this is what John says right after that in v.13, speaking of them he speaks of in v12, “who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Tong
R2015

 

[Tong2020]

Of course that is the basic teaching of Calvinism...so I was turning that back on you.

No sir. If you have any issue with calvinism, bring it to them, for what I bring to you is scriptures, not anything else.

Tong
R2016

 

[Tong2020]

Sorry, the Word says the whole world....everyone from Adam to the last person born at the end of the millenium....everyone who wills. HE paid the price, but does not force salvation on anyone. We still have to accept it...embrace Him. Some have and will refuse to. Refusal does not mean the price was not paid...it means it was refused.

If Christ also paid the price for the sin of those who refuse Him, are you suggesting that the blood of Christ was wasted on them?

Tong
R2017

 

[Jostler]

If Christ also paid the price for the sin of those who refuse Him, are you suggesting that the blood of Christ was wasted on them?

Tong
R2017

Anything offered, and not received, would be wasted, wouldn't it? Odd question when the answer is obvious from the statement. The lake of fire...is justice

 

[Tong2020]

Anything offered, and not received, would be wasted, wouldn't it? Odd question when the answer is obvious from the statement. The lake of fire...is justice

And that is exactly why I brought the matter of wasting the most precious blood of Christ to you, for that is what obviously is what you seem to be suggesting that results from out of what you believe.

For in my view, God will not put to waste the most precious blood of Jesus Christ.

Tong
R2018

 

[Jostler]

And yet, He offered Christ to all men, knowing some would refuse....such is love...

 

[HisLife]

Anything offered, and not received, would be wasted, wouldn't it? Odd question when the answer is obvious from the statement. The lake of fire...is justice

The Word of God doesn't return to Him void, The Lake of Fire Is for satan and his children, Justice is talked about under the Law, The New testament Is about Grace, A payment was made! Grace is very different to just behaviour or treatment.

 

[Jostler]

I have no idea what you just tried to say :) ....drive on bro, serve God as best you can figure out how :)

 

[Tong2020]

And yet, He offered Christ to all men, knowing some would refuse....such is love...

While God’s love is truly great, God does not waste. More so, knowing that He is omniscient and perfect.

Tong
R2018

 

[brightfame52]

Rom 5:18

I have been witnessing the Truth of Rom 5:19 and how it teaches that Christ one act of obedience shall make many righteous.

Now we will look at what Rom 5:18 states :

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now the gospel here states emphatically that by one man's act of righteousness, the free gift of Justification of life came upon all men.

Now who is this righteousness of one, what was his act of righteousness, and what did it accomplish according to Rom 5:18153 ?

Well the one man is the Lord Jesus Christ.

His act of righteousness was his active and passive obedience of the cross.

What did this accomplish ? It accomplishes and gives the Justification of life upon all who he lived and died for in his act of righteousness.

Now, do all without exception have justification of life ? The answer is no, so therefore, the act of righteousness by which all receive Justification of life, was not for all men without exception, hence, the doctrine of limited atonement is confirmed.

 

[Tong2020]

Rom 5:18

I have been witnessing the Truth of Rom 5:19 and how it teaches that Christ one act of obedience shall make many righteous.

Now we will look at what Rom 5:18 states :

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now the gospel here states emphatically that by one man's act of righteousness, the free gift of Justification of life came upon all men.

Now who is this righteousness of one, what was his act of righteousness, and what did it accomplish according to Rom 5:18153 ?

Well the one man is the Lord Jesus Christ.

His act of righteousness was his active and passive obedience of the cross.

What did this accomplish ? It accomplishes and gives the Justification of life upon all who he lived and died for in his act of righteousness.

Now, do all without exception have justification of life ? The answer is no, so therefore, the act of righteousness by which all receive Justification of life, was not for all men without exception, hence, the doctrine of limited atonement is confirmed.

What is the free gift referred to there in Romans 5:18 ?

With your conclusion found in your last paragraph, my view is that Christ offered His life as a sacrifice for atonement for the whole world, but have only offered His life as a sin offering for the forgiveness of sins of those whom the Father had given to Him to save and raise at the last day.

Tong
R2019

 

[brightfame52]

tong

What is the free gift referred to there in Romans 5:18 ?

It tells you in the verse, read it: Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

 

[Tong2020]

tong



It tells you in the verse, read it: Rom 5:18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Yes the verse says “the free gift” came upon all men unto justification of life. Does that say what the free gift is? Unless you take the verse as saying the free gift is justification unto life.

Tong
R2020

 

[CadyandZoe]

Of course, but no one is forced to submit to God's softening of their heart. Even using the word "Rebellious" insinuates that the person has the opportunity to submit to God, otherwise, what is he rebelling against? Jesus said he would draw all men to himself. Not some men. But not all men submits to his drawing.

39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.”

Again, in order to make contact with the truth about God, one must never lose sight of the fact that he creates. He never forces, coerces, or causes anyone to do anything. Consider what the Bible says about the heart, that it is desperately wicked. Consider what Paul said about the idea that God, not man, choses which hearts to change.

And what picture comes to mind when Jesus says "I will draw all men to myself"? What does that look like? John says Jesus spoke these words in order to indicate the kind of death he was to die. When does this "drawing" take place?

Read John 12:36-43 and consider why some in Israel could not believe.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Roman 9 is Paul responding to the question, has God made a mistake choosing Israel, since Israel rejected the messiah sent to them. Why did God make such a mistake...

if we interpret it in this way it makes total sense when we read.

the Bible speaks of election because it gives god credit, and gives us security.
But Roman 9 is not about our election, Romans 11 is about God keeping his promise to israel, in the end he keeps his promises even after they rejected him

I disagree with your conclusion since Paul himself states his thesis statement in Romans 9:6. The objection Paul is addressing is the claim that Paul's gospel is false teaching based on the fact that it logically leads to the conclusion that God's promise to Israel has failed. He isn't concerned whether or not God should have picked Israel in the first place. He is concerned whether God is willing and able to keep his promises. He concludes his discourse on Israel in the 11th chapter of Romans with the revelation of a mystery. The body of Christ is comprised of both Jews and Gentiles, what Paul calls "the fulness" and he says that there will remain a partial hardening of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. Then God will fulfill his promise to Israel, to remove their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh.

Title: The Fullness

 

[Nancy]

What did he mean? Who is the troller?

I think he's talking about Brightframe?

 

[Renniks]

From where did you get that so called halfway point? Have any scriptures that support such teaching?

Let me ask, did the Father gave to the Son, all mankind, to save and raise at the last day? If not, then there are those the Father gave to the Son for salvation and there those who are not. Those who are not, needless to say, will not come to Christ and those who were will and will be saved. If there be any that the Father draws to the Son to be saved, it will be those whom He had given to the Son.

Tong
R2010

There is a condition to being raised up on the last day. Belief is that condition. We wouldn't have passages about falling away if it were not possible to fall away. It's weird to me that so many people read "I will raise them up on the last day." as some kind of deal where God just drags us by the hair into heaven when there's tons of verse encouraging us to remain faithful and tons of verses warning about false teachers leading us astray.

 

[Renniks]

That is what you teach but I don’t see scriptures teaching that. Please show scriptures which teach that.

Tong
R2013

John 12:32 declares that all men are drawn to Christ.
John 16:8-11 we see that the ongoing ministry of the Spirit is to convict the entire world of its sin of unbelief (the suppression of truth cf. Rom. 1:18-32).
Titus 2:11 clearly states that God's grace has appeared to all men but from this passage we cannot conclude that all men will be saved. Yet the grace spoken of here cannot be explained as simply a common grace. This is because the purpose of the grace spoken of was to bring people to salvation

Just because the word "prevenient grace" isn't in the Bible doesn't mean the concept isn't. If God draws all men, that must mean most have the opportunity to seek Him and repent, but they don't go through with it.

 

[Renniks]

39 For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40 “He has blinded their eyes and He hardened their heart, so that they would not see with their eyes and perceive with their heart, and be converted and I heal them.”

Thanks for proving my point. Why would God have to harden them if some were already chosen for salvation and some for damnation?

 

[Nancy]

Thanks for proving my point. Why would God have to harden them if some were already chosen for salvation and some for damnation?

Excellent question...