The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[BarneyFife]

A person under conviction isn't yet saved.

I think you're conflating God's grace with salvation.

 

[CharismaticLady]

That's not what I posted.

Wasn't it about the "elect." I'd have to go back and check, but I think it was. I guess you don't want to "discuss" so bye.

 

[BarneyFife]

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (Titus 2:11)

Read very closely. The object of the prepositional phrase "that bringeth salvation" is "the grace of God."

What the grace of God does is "appear to all men."

All men are not saved. it's pretty simple really.

The grace of God does more than save only.

It does two things in this verse.

Got to get to Sesame Street.

 

[BarneyFife]

Wasn't it about the "elect." I'd have to go back and check, but I think it was.

Hi, CL!

 

[CharismaticLady]

Hi, CL!

Hi BF

 

[Tong2020]

Oh I disagree!
"Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Jesus gives the condition before he talks about God giving him certain people.

And he repeats it, just in case they missed it the first time:
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Then he explains how they should have been led to believe:
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

"47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life."

Woop!... there is the condition again!

And again, in metaphor this time:

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Enabled isn't an irresistible force. I am enabled to do lots of things I don't do..

But Jesus knew whose heart was open and who was ready at that time and who wasn't.

As far as being chosen:
"Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Being chosen obviously isn't about chosen for salvation.

To believe in the one God has sent, whose work is it?

In John 6:37, who does it says can come to Christ? What does it mean to come to Christ? The answer is in the context.

In John 6:44, who can come to Christ if not those whom the Father draws to Him? John 6:45 tells us how the Father draws and how one is drawn by the Father to come to Christ. Again, what does it mean to come to Christ? Again, the answer is in the context.

In the first part of John 6, many seek Him, but not because they knew and believe that He is the Messiah, until they found Him on the other side of the sea. In John 6:65, after all that He told them before v.65, Jesus said to them, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.” Do you know now what it means to “come” to Christ?

In v.65, the Greek word translated “enabled” in the version you quoted is “didomi” which is better translated as “granted” or “given” which refers back to what He said in v.44.

And finally, regarding being chosen, God chose people for salvation like the genuine Christians, and God also chose people for some specific purpose, like Judas, Pharoah, and God also chose people both for salvation and for some specific purpose, like the eleven apostles, Paul, the virgin Mary, John the baptist.

Tong
R2025

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
The drawing spoken of in John 12:32 isn’t about being drawn to come to Christ, that is, believe in Christ.

The ministry of the Spirit spoken in John 16:8-11does not mean that all people will be drawn to Christ and likewise with Titus 2:11.

<<<If God draws all men, that must mean most have the opportunity to seek Him and repent, but they don't go through with it.>>>

But that is simply not what scriptures says. What scriptures says is that no man can come to Christ to be raised up in the last unless the Father draws him. Clearly the drawing spoken by Jesus in John 6 is a drawing which end is one’s resurrection unto salvation. Now if you are taking reference to John 12:32, the drawing there isn’t the same drawing in John 6:44. The drawing in John 12:32 has to do with what death Jesus would die. The drawing per John 6:44 have those drawn to be raised up in the last day, while the drawing per John 12:32 is not like so.

Very confusing but not at all convincing. Being drawn doesn't always end in redemption. You never resist the Spirit?

Why are you confused? What’s confusing?

Read John 6:44 and see that the drawing there by the Father is for them to come to Christ, who shall do the Father’s will concerning them, that is, to raise them up in the last day.

<<<You never resist the Spirit?>>>

What has that got to do with God’s drawing people to come to Christ to be raised up on the last day?

Tong
R2026

 

[Wrangler]

I think you're conflating God's grace with salvation.

Easy to conflate since one is a subset of the other. God's Grace > Salvation.

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (Titus 2:11)

Read very closely. The object of the prepositional phrase "that bringeth salvation" is "the grace of God."

What the grace of God does is "appear to all men."

All men are not saved. it's pretty simple really.

I confess that I cannot read KJV. The VOICE translation came out in 2012. Titus 2:11 We have cause to celebrate because the grace of God has appeared, offering the gift of salvation to all people.

"Offering the gift" is the operative word in this modern translation, making the meaning clear, agreeing with your analysis of the near middle English. However, I have to admit another modern translation, CEV, coming out in 1995 seems to agree with Renniks' take; 'God has shown us how kind he is by coming to save all people.'

If the myth were true, Christianity would be synonymous with universalism. And while I like this idea, it has scant evidence in Scripture.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Of course that is the basic teaching of Calvinism...so I was turning that back on you.

Who is Calvinist? You or Tong?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
How does that prove your point?

If a person was already destined for damnation, hardening them serves no point. They would not respond to God regardless. If one is as destined for salvation, nothing could keep them from responding to God regardless. It only makes sense if all can be saved.

It may be that hardening serves no point to you, but only as far as your reasoning is concerned. But not that they are not chosen for salvation that God could not do to them to serve His purpose. Remember Pharaoh? He was an unbeliever, and was not among the chosen for salvation. But nonetheless, God had hardened him to serve His purpose in him. Not only had God hardened him, but even raised him up for His purpose.

If one is among those chosen for salvation, it does not mean that he had no choice but to believe in Christ, but that, God will work it out, until he believes in Him whom God had sent, that is, Jesus Christ.

Tong
R2027

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Your question does not prove nor refute the truth that there are those whom God gives to the Son to raise up in the last day and there are those who are not given.

Yes, those not given didn't learn from the Father as they could have. He was speaking to the Jews who had the Torah. Why would he tell them this if they were incapable of believing? Why would he reportedly tell them to believe if that was all already pre destined?

That’s right, those who did not learn from the Father are those who were not taught by the Father. For if and when the Father teach one, he would certainly learn. Not that they were taught by the Father and just did not learn, for that would render the Father as not a good teacher. But the Father is not a bad and ineffective teacher, but a good and perfectly effective teacher.

<<<He was speaking to the Jews who had the Torah. Why would he tell them this if they were incapable of believing?>>>

Tell them what?

<<<Why would he reportedly tell them to believe if that was all already pre destined?>>>

Are you referring to Jesus as the “he” in your question? Please clarify.

Tong
R2028

 

[Tong2020]

Who is Calvinist? You or Tong?

Not me. I am a Christian. I don’t follow Calvin. I follow Christ.

Tong
R2029

 

[Renniks]

In John 6:44, who can come to Christ if not those whom the Father draws to Him? John 6:45 tells us how the Father draws and how one is drawn by the Father to come to Christ. Again, what does it mean to come to Christ? Again, the answer is in the context.

"Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me."

And it says they all shall be taught by God. Obviously, not all choose to learn.

 

[Renniks]

Why are you confused? What’s confusing?

You denying the plain meaning of verses is confusing.

 

[Renniks]

What has that got to do with God’s drawing people to come to Christ to be raised up on the last day?

Everything. Being raised up is conditional on continuing to follow God. Non believers will not be raised up to heaven. Being drawn doesn't equate to being dragged.

 

[Renniks]

Remember Pharaoh? He was an unbeliever, and was not among the chosen for salvation.

Scripture never says he couldn't have been saved. Calvinist read everything backwards.

 

[Renniks]

That’s right, those who did not learn from the Father are those who were not taught by the Father. For if and when the Father teach one, he would certainly learn. Not that they were taught by the Father and just did not learn, for that would render the Father as not a good teacher. But the Father is not a bad and ineffective teacher, but a good and perfectly effective teacher.

<<<He was speaking to the Jews who had the Torah. Why would he tell them this if they were incapable of believing?>>>

Tell them what?

<<<Why would he reportedly tell them to believe if that was all already pre destined?>>>

Are you referring to Jesus as the “he” in your question? Please clarify.

Tong
R2028

Yes he told them to believe. It doesn't matter how good the teacher is if the students refuse to learn. Which Israel did repeatedly according to God. Again you twist it backwards.

Isaiah 5:4 What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it? When I looked for good grapes, why did it yield only bad?

Matthew 23:37-39 37"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

Calvinist: " Oh that means God didn't make them willing. "
baaaackwards!

 

[BarneyFife]

You denying the plain meaning of verses is confusing.

And he will do so very politely, at times, until you go bananas. Been there; done that.

 

[BarneyFife]

Not me. I am a Christian. I don’t follow Calvin. I follow Christ.

Tong
R2029

If you believe in predestination with no free will, you may be a follower of Christ, but you are also a Calvinist.

 

[justbyfaith]

This is what John 1:12 says “But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: “

And this is what John says right after that in v.13, speaking of them he speaks of in v12, “who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”

Tong
R2015

Which does not invalidate my point; which is that a person receives Christ and then is given the power or right to become a child of God; not the other way around.

No sir. If you have any issue with calvinism, bring it to them, for what I bring to you is scriptures, not anything else.

Tong
R2016

You are bringing the doctrines of Calvinism.

God does not waste.

Chapter and verse?

Rom 5:18

I have been witnessing the Truth of Rom 5:19 and how it teaches that Christ one act of obedience shall make many righteous.

Now we will look at what Rom 5:18 states :

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Now the gospel here states emphatically that by one man's act of righteousness, the free gift of Justification of life came upon all men.

Now who is this righteousness of one, what was his act of righteousness, and what did it accomplish according to Rom 5:18153 ?

Well the one man is the Lord Jesus Christ.

His act of righteousness was his active and passive obedience of the cross.

What did this accomplish ? It accomplishes and gives the Justification of life upon all who he lived and died for in his act of righteousness.

Now, do all without exception have justification of life ? The answer is no, so therefore, the act of righteousness by which all receive Justification of life, was not for all men without exception, hence, the doctrine of limited atonement is confirmed.

Obviously the verse in question is saying that the offer of eternal life is given to all men without exception; but we know from other scripture that all men without exception do not receive that gift.

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” Does the Father draws all mankind to Christ? If all, then all will be saved and raised at the last day. So, not all mankind will be drawn by the Father to Christ to be saved but only those whom the Father gives to the Son.

Notice it does not say, everyone whom the Father draws to me will come to me." It says something rather different: that a person cannot come to the Father unless he is drawn by the Holy Spirit. It is operated in negative terms.

The drawing spoken of in John 12:32 isn’t about being drawn to come to Christ, that is, believe in Christ.

This should be good. If John 12:32 isn't about being drawn to Christ, what is it about?

I will agree that not everyone who is drawn, actually believes.

A person who is at the "halfway point" is covered by the same grace of God that both or either the saved and the unsaved receive. I don't see the point in classifying conviction as a third option. It's not Biblical, anyway.

You need to read your Bible a little but more extensively. Conviction of the Holy Spirit is indeed a reality in the Bible.

How does that constitute a halfway point? Did you study this out or was it taught to you? And don't tell me I have a bias against the truth.

I studied it out.

God may grant a person time to make a decision, but that is not some state of limbo. :)

To be almost saved is to be totally lost. It's not even worth debating. It's just vain philosophy. :

Not that I consider you a vain person by any accounting, but we've all had goofy ideas.

Right...to be almost saved is to be totally lost. Those who are being drawn by Christ are still lost, until they make a decision to receive Christ as their Lord and Saviour. It is not vain philosophy that I am preaching to you; but biblical doctrine.