The Myth of saying that Jesus Christ died for all men without exception !

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
From where did you get that so called halfway point? Have any scriptures that support such teaching?

Let me ask, did the Father gave to the Son, all mankind, to save and raise at the last day? If not, then there are those the Father gave to the Son for salvation and there those who are not. Those who are not, needless to say, will not come to Christ and those who were will and will be saved. If there be any that the Father draws to the Son to be saved, it will be those whom He had given to the Son.

There is a condition to being raised up on the last day. Belief is that condition. We wouldn't have passages about falling away if it were not possible to fall away. It's weird to me that so many people read "I will raise them up on the last day." as some kind of deal where God just drags us by the hair into heaven when there's tons of verse encouraging us to remain faithful and tons of verses warning about false teachers leading us astray.

In John 6, the Lord Jesus said “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.” Is all mankind given to the Son by the Father. Can all mankind then come to Christ? And what “come” there means, but that they will believe in Him.

Now, concerning the coming to Christ, in John 6, the Lord Jesus said “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.” Does the Father draws all mankind to Christ? If all, then all will be saved and raised at the last day. So, not all mankind will be drawn by the Father to Christ to be saved but only those whom the Father gives to the Son. Who are they? They are the ones who will come to Christ. They shall be in time manifested, them who will hear His voice, that is, believe in Him. They are the sheep spoken by Jesus in John 10, given by the Father to Him.

Their being given by the Father to the Son isn’t based on a condition, nor is based on them meeting the condition. God elected and have chosen them based on His divine nature and character, and will.

<<<We wouldn't have passages about falling away if it were not possible to fall away. >>>

But those who fall away are of those who shall not be raised in the last days unto eternal life. As such, they are not among those the Father had given to Son to raise up at the last day.

<<<It's weird to me that so many people read "I will raise them up on the last day." as some kind of deal where God just drags us by the hair into heaven when there's tons of verse encouraging us to remain faithful and tons of verses warning about false teachers leading us astray.>>>

Not like that. There are no scriptures that teach that. But that the Father is Him who have mercy on whom He wills to have mercy, and wills for the Son, to raise them up in the last day.

The tons of verses encouraging the church to remain faithful does not have anything to do with the election of grace regarding God’s salvation. The tons of verses warning about false teachers leading the church astray also has nothing to do with the election of grace regarding God’s salvation.

Tong
R2022

 

[CadyandZoe]

Thanks for proving my point. Why would God have to harden them if some were already chosen for salvation and some for damnation?

The question is, why does he harden them at all?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That is what you teach but I don’t see scriptures teaching that. Please show scriptures which teach that.

John 12:32 declares that all men are drawn to Christ.
John 16:8-11 we see that the ongoing ministry of the Spirit is to convict the entire world of its sin of unbelief (the suppression of truth cf. Rom. 1:18-32).
Titus 2:11 clearly states that God's grace has appeared to all men but from this passage we cannot conclude that all men will be saved. Yet the grace spoken of here cannot be explained as simply a common grace. This is because the purpose of the grace spoken of was to bring people to salvation

Just because the word "prevenient grace" isn't in the Bible doesn't mean the concept isn't. If God draws all men, that must mean most have the opportunity to seek Him and repent, but they don't go through with it.

The drawing spoken of in John 12:32 isn’t about being drawn to come to Christ, that is, believe in Christ.

The ministry of the Spirit spoken in John 16:8-11 does not mean that all people will be drawn to Christ and likewise with Titus 2:11.

<<<If God draws all men, that must mean most have the opportunity to seek Him and repent, but they don't go through with it.>>>

But that is simply not what scriptures says. What scriptures says is that no man can come to Christ to be raised up in the last unless the Father draws him. Clearly the drawing spoken by Jesus in John 6 is a drawing which end is one’s resurrection unto salvation. Now if you are taking reference to John 12:32, the drawing there isn’t the same drawing in John 6:44. The drawing in John 12:32 has to do with what death Jesus would die. The drawing per John 6:44 have those drawn to be raised up in the last day, while the drawing per John 12:32 is not like so.

Tong
R2023

 

[Tong2020]

Thanks for proving my point. Why would God have to harden them if some were already chosen for salvation and some for damnation?

How does that prove your point?

<<<Why would God have to harden them if some were already chosen for salvation and some for damnation?>>>

There are a lot of questions you can ask, such as why did God not save all mankind, or why did God not save any fallen angels, or why did God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil if He did not want Adam to eat of it? But throwing that question you asked here does not prove anything at all.

Your question does not prove nor refute the truth that there are those whom God gives to the Son to raise up in the last day and there are those who are not given.

Tong
R2024

 

[brightfame52]

Yes the verse says “the free gift” came upon all men unto justification of life. Does that say what the free gift is? Unless you take the verse as saying the free gift is justification unto life.

Tong
R2020

I know what the verse says, I posted it remember.

 

[Renniks]

Their being given by the Father to the Son isn’t based on a condition, nor is based on them meeting the condition

Oh I disagree!
"Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

Jesus gives the condition before he talks about God giving him certain people.

And he repeats it, just in case they missed it the first time:
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Then he explains how they should have been led to believe:
45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

"47 Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life."

Woop!... there is the condition again!

And again, in metaphor this time:

53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day."

Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”

Enabled isn't an irresistible force. I am enabled to do lots of things I don't do..

But Jesus knew whose heart was open and who was ready at that time and who wasn't.

As far as being chosen:
"Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” 71 (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)

Being chosen obviously isn't about chosen for salvation.

 

[Renniks]

The question is, why does he harden them at all?

To advance the gospel. They were already hard, so he used that to reach the gentiles. Read Romans.

 

[Renniks]

The drawing spoken of in John 12:32 isn’t about being drawn to come to Christ, that is, believe in Christ.

The ministry of the Spirit spoken in John 16:8-11 does not mean that all people will be drawn to Christ and likewise with Titus 2:11.

<<<If God draws all men, that must mean most have the opportunity to seek Him and repent, but they don't go through with it.>>>

But that is simply not what scriptures says. What scriptures says is that no man can come to Christ to be raised up in the last unless the Father draws him. Clearly the drawing spoken by Jesus in John 6 is a drawing which end is one’s resurrection unto salvation. Now if you are taking reference to John 12:32, the drawing there isn’t the same drawing in John 6:44. The drawing in John 12:32 has to do with what death Jesus would die. The drawing per John 6:44 have those drawn to be raised up in the last day, while the drawing per John 12:32 is not like so.

Tong
R2023

Very confusing but not at all convincing. Being drawn doesn't always end in redemption. You never resist the Spirit?

 

[Renniks]

How does that prove your point?

If a person was already destined for damnation, hardening them serves no point. They would not respond to God regardless. If one is as destined for salvation, nothing could keep them from responding to God regardless. It only makes sense if all can be saved.

 

[Renniks]

Your question does not prove nor refute the truth that there are those whom God gives to the Son to raise up in the last day and there are those who are not given.

Yes, those not given didn't learn from the Father as they could have. He was speaking to the Jews who had the Torah. Why would he tell them this if they were incapable of believing? Why would he reportedly tell them to believe if that was all already pre destined?

 

[CadyandZoe]

To advance the gospel. They were already hard, so he used that to reach the gentiles. Read Romans.

Negative. Does that actually make sense? The text says that God hardened their hearts. If their hearts were already hardened, then why lie about it? Why claim that God hardened them if they were already hardened? Please.

 

[BarneyFife]

You are mistaken.

For God is able to help an unregenerated man to come to faith and surrender in and to Christ (2 Corinthians 6:2)



That scripture has nothing to do with the context of what I am saying.

The halfway point is when a man is being drawn to Christ and it only lasts for a short period of time in which the person has an opportunity to guve their heart to Christ or else ultimately reject Him.

Oh, context, schmontext.

A person is either converted or unregenerate.

 

[BarneyFife]

A person who is at the "halfway point" is covered by the same grace of God that both or either the saved and the unsaved receive. I don't see the point in classifying conviction as a third option. It's not Biblical, anyway.

 

[BarneyFife]

2 Corinthians 6:1-2 gives us a principle that is applied as holy scripture...that those who will be saved will be helped to make a decision for Christ on their day of salvation.

How does that constitute a halfway point? Did you study this out or was it taught to you? And don't tell me I have a bias against the truth.

 

[Renniks]

Negative. Does that actually make sense? The text says that God hardened their hearts. If their hearts were already hardened, then why lie about it? Why claim that God hardened them if they were already hardened? Please.

Just like pharaoh. He hardened his heart first, and then God hardened him farther so he could use him to free israel.

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” (Romans 11:25)
11. So I'm asking you: They haven't stumbled so that they've fallen permanently, have they? Absolutely not! But salvation has come to the Gentiles by their failure, in order to make Israel jealous.

 

[Wrangler]

Just like pharaoh. He hardened his heart first, and then God hardened him farther so he could use him to free israel.

Coincidently in church today the pastor explained 'hardened' in this context means to wring out from the heart the evil that was there.

 

[BarneyFife]

For, there is a halfway point between total depravity and being regenerated; which halfway point is being drawn by the Holy Spirit to Christ: in which a man, being not yet regenerated, is enabled to make a decision either for or against Christ that is unhindered by the flesh or the enemy.

God may grant a person time to make a decision, but that is not some state of limbo. :)

To be almost saved is to be totally lost. It's not even worth debating. It's just vain philosophy. :

Not that I consider you a vain person by any accounting, but we've all had goofy ideas.

 

[Renniks]

A person who is at the "halfway point" is covered by the same grace of God that both or either the saved and the unsaved receive. I don't see the point in classifying conviction as a third option. It's not Biblical, anyway.

A person under conviction isn't yet saved. Some churches used to have mourning benches for seekers. Have you never seen someone under obvious conviction resist? The Spirit isn't irresistible. I must have sat through 100 alter calls and always resisted.

 

[BarneyFife]

Just like pharaoh. He hardened his heart first, and then God hardened him farther so he could use him to free israel.

"Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” (Romans 11:25)
11. So I'm asking you: They haven't stumbled so that they've fallen permanently, have they? Absolutely not! But salvation has come to the Gentiles by their failure, in order to make Israel jealous.

What actually happened was that Pharoah committed the unpardonable sin. God's Spirit will not always strive with man.

 

[BarneyFife]

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