The Israel Of God Is The Church

[Keraz]

The ONLY reason I have arrived where I am at a quasi-Amillennial stance, is because I could NOT ignore 1 Cor 15 in light of Rev 20 and vice versa.

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about what will happen after the Great White Throne Judgment.
Proved by how it is then that Death will be no more.
Isaiah 65:20 shows that there will be death during the Millennium.

I have difficulty in understanding why you and AMills can't just read Rev 20 for what it says.
The whole AMill theory is untenable; in no way is this time the thousand years as stated six times in Rev 20.

 

[Naomi25]

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about what will happen after the Great White Throne Judgment.
Proved by how it is then that Death will be no more.
Isaiah 65:20 shows that there will be death during the Millennium.

I have difficulty in understanding why you and AMills can't just read Rev 20 for what it says.
The whole AMill theory is untenable; in no way is this time the thousand years as stated six times in Rev 20.

Well…I suppose that’s how we each end where we do, as baffling as it may be to each other. You seem to see Rev 20 as the guidepost that must bend all other scripture into an understanding of how times and sequences fit….and I see 1 Cor 15 as being the more obvious, straightforward text in that regard that ought to help us steer Revelation.
I can respect that you’ve arrived at where you are by faithful study of scripture, even if I disagree with you, and I suppose we can look forward to find out who was right! Because be it an pre-eternal kingdom or an eternal one, we’re still all going to win if we’re in Christ’s presence.

 

[Truth7t7]

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about what will happen after the Great White Throne Judgment.
Proved by how it is then that Death will be no more.
Isaiah 65:20 shows that there will be death during the Millennium.

I have difficulty in understanding why you and AMills can't just read Rev 20 for what it says.
The whole AMill theory is untenable; in no way is this time the thousand years as stated six times in Rev 20.

A child dying 100 years old isn't literal death, but symbolic of eternal to the human mind

Isaiah 65:17-20 and Revelation 21:1-4 are "Parallel" readings explaining the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem

Jesus Is The Lord

Isaiah 65:17-20KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Revelation 21:1-4KJV
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[GEN2REV]

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

I agree with you about this and I have only read page 1 so I apologize in advance if I am repeating anything anybody already addressed.

I'm curious what your definition of the Church is, 7T7. I believe the Church is Spiritual Israel, but I believe they are not of any one denomination, or made up of all those who still attend church regularly, etc., but that they are of all races and they are scattered abroad just as the Bible stated that they would be. In all nations, on all continents. They are those who worship Him in spirit and in truth. Some refuse to believe they are not of one single race, but you cannot deny that all races upon the earth are well-mixed by now. So, if it simply was a case of having even a tiny vestige of DNA from the original race, then we wouldn't have Jesus telling the Pharisees and Sadducees, to their face, that they were not of Abraham; when they all could trace their lineage straight back to him. Jesus Himself declared the Israel of God to be a spiritual race in that exchange.

I'd like to throw out a bit of perspective that I haven't heard anybody address before in any of these specific debates. For those who believe that God's People are Israel the race of people, or any specific race of people for that matter, consider this: If it were as simple, and obvious, as them being one specific race of people, or physical nation, it would be very easy for the enemy to destroy them. And why wouldn't he? That would completely solve his problem of the power of the Holy Spirit upon the earth. There will come a day when the Holy Spirit will be completely gone from the earth, as the Bible implies, and that will lead to the Antichrist being revealed, or at least being free at that point to do as he wishes.

So, why wouldn't the devil just destroy God's People if they were all wrapped up in a nice tidy box of race for him to destroy? I can promise you he would, and he'd likely already have long done it by now. Also, what would be the point of the crucial event in the Bible of taking the mark of the beast if the people who are a threat to the enemy are just one race of people? He wouldn't need to use the strategy of having mankind accept, or not accept, the mark in order to glean who is of God and who is not.

The fact is that God's People are a spiritual Israel. There is no other explanation that coincides with scripture on the subject, as well as with all the facts we can account for in the physical world.

Just some food for thought. I know some will be offended, I hope some will appreciate the contribution.

God bless.

 

[Keraz]

A child dying 100 years old isn't literal death, but symbolic of eternal to the human mind

To make a plainly stated scriptural fact into a symbolic non-event, requires far more proof than your opinion.
NONE of Isaiah 65:18-25 fits with Eternity. Try actually reading that passage, it cannot be for the Eternal, spiritual state, after the Millennium. It has to be before.

 

[Truth7t7]

I agree with you about this and I have only read page 1 so I apologize in advance if I am repeating anything anybody already addressed.

I'm curious what your definition of the Church is, 7T7. I believe the Church is Spiritual Israel, but I believe they are not of any one denomination, or made up of all those who still attend church regularly, etc., but that they are of all races and they are scattered abroad just as the Bible stated that they would be. In all nations, on all continents. They are those who worship Him in spirit and in truth. Some refuse to believe they are not of one single race, but you cannot deny that all races upon the earth are well-mixed by now. So, if it simply was a case of having even a tiny vestige of DNA from the original race, then we wouldn't have Jesus telling the Pharisees and Sadducees, to their face, that they were not of Abraham; when they all could trace their lineage straight back to him. Jesus Himself declared the Israel of God to be a spiritual race in that exchange.

I'd like to throw out a bit of perspective that I haven't heard anybody address before in any of these specific debates. For those who believe that God's People are Israel the race of people, or any specific race of people for that matter, consider this: If it were as simple, and obvious, as them being one specific race of people, or physical nation, it would be very easy for the enemy to destroy them. And why wouldn't he? That would completely solve his problem of the power of the Holy Spirit upon the earth. There will come a day when the Holy Spirit will be completely gone from the earth, as the Bible implies, and that will lead to the Antichrist being revealed, or at least being free at that point to do as he wishes.

So, why wouldn't the devil just destroy God's People if they were all wrapped up in a nice tidy box of race for him to destroy? I can promise you he would, and he'd likely already have long done it by now. Also, what would be the point of the crucial event in the Bible of taking the mark of the beast if the people who are a threat to the enemy are just one race of people? He wouldn't need to use the strategy of having mankind accept, or not accept, the mark in order to glean who is of God and who is not.

The fact is that God's People are a spiritual Israel. There is no other explanation that coincides with scripture on the subject, as well as with all the facts we can account for in the physical world.

Just some food for thought. I know some will be offended, I hope some will appreciate the contribution.

God bless.

The Church are those who are saved and sealed by God the Holy Spirit, it's that simple

Denomination plays no part, if you are sealed your saved and part of the Church

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

 

[Truth7t7]

To make a plainly stated scriptural fact into a symbolic non-event, requires far more proof than your opinion.
NONE of Isaiah 65:18-25 fits with Eternity. Try actually reading that passage, it cannot be for the Eternal, spiritual state, after the Millennium. It has to be before.

We disagree, it's screaming in your face (Behold, I Create New Heavens And A New Earth) same New Jerusalem, same no more crying, same former shall not be remembered, passed away

A child dying 100 years old isn't literal death, but symbolic of eternal to the human mind

Isaiah 65:17-20 and Revelation 21:1-4 are "Parallel" readings explaining the New Heaven, Earth, Jerusalem

Jesus Is The Lord

Isaiah 65:17-20KJV
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

Revelation 21:1-4KJV
And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

[Taken]

The Israel Of God Is The Church
OP ^

It’s an in-depth study.
In brief;
* God chose a particular people.
The particular people Agreed to obey the God.
...Freewill effected. ^
* The particular people NAMED...Israel, Israelites, Gods People.
Particular Promises from God to His People Israel.
Generations are born.
...Freewill of individuals prevails.
* Israelites descend by bloodline.
* Mans bloodline does not Save a man.

Issue;
Israelites scattered, Stray from God.
* God sends His Word in the likeness as a man.
* Gods Word, Jesus, preaches to the strayed.
Israelites headmaster teachers fear losing cushy positions.
* Israelites line drawn, Division effected:
(Luke 12:51 ~ John 7:43 ~ John 9:16 ~ John 10:19)
* Branches remaining, Branches cut off.

Introduction;
* Gentiles ~ without God ~ without Gods Word.
* Gentiles hearing, sharing, believing, embracing, committing.
* A New Promises
* A Reverse...of sorts...
.....Gentiles gravitate to Gods Word...then God
.....Israelites gravitate to God....then “earthly mans” word

Conclusion;
* Israelites “enduring” in God...Saved AT physical death, YES.
* Israelites “rejecting” God...Cut off, YES.
* Israelites “converting”...Saved B-4 physical death, YES
* Gentiles “enduring” in Lord...Saved AT physical death, YES
* Gentiles “converted” in Lord God..Saved B-4 phy-death, YES
* Gentiles “rejecting” God...Excluded, YES.

* Israelites DO NOT become Gentiles.
* Gentiles DO NOT become Israelites.

SAVED Israelites and SAVED Gentiles BECOME yoked together brethren AS: sons of God;
Together they BECOME: recipients of the Lord Gods “PROMISES”.

(And not to overlook, those who Reject God, also become subject to Gods “negative” promises.)

God is Just. All will receive as their hearts desired.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[michaelvpardo]

No unbelievers are children of God. That does not cancel the fact that after the second coming of Christ large number of Jews will become children of God, and even during the Tribulation, many will be saved. So don't try and skew things for the sake of your faulty theological. Start with Romans 11, and then do a serious Bible study. Also using the word "flesh" means nothing in this context.

Do unbelievers have spirit? Why does the Bible call God the Father of all spirits and then call only born again believers His children? I'm not implying anything in particular but trying to reconcile reformation doctrine to scripture.
Note: I recollect at least one passage that mentions the children of rebellion and a few that refer to the son of perdition, but I'm reasonably sure that neither rebellion or perdition are actual entities.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Not so, Truth.

The word "nation" here is the Greek word ethnos, and sometimes is simply translated "people." This is the proper translation here in context, because Jesus was talking about the spiritual leadership of the people of God being taken from the Pharisees and given over into the hands of the apostles and leaders of the early church. If you do not think so, then tell me who the vineyard is in this parable:

The Parable of the Wicked Vinedressers

33 “Hear another parable: There was a certain landowner who planted a vineyard and set a hedge around it, dug a winepress in it and built a tower. And he leased it to vinedressers and went into a far country. 34 Now when vintage-time drew near, he sent his servants to the vinedressers, that they might receive its fruit. 35 And the vinedressers took his servants, beat one, killed one, and stoned another. 36 Again he sent other servants, more than the first, and they did likewise to them. 37 Then last of all he sent his son to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 38 But when the vinedressers saw the son, they said among themselves, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him and seize his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and cast him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?” 41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.” 42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a people bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.” 45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they perceived that He was speaking of them. 46 But when they sought to lay hands on Him, they feared the multitudes, because they took Him for a prophet.

Nations has always applied to people (some are nomadic), while country applies to real estate. EG: The Mongols would've been considered a nation, like the Cherokee or Sioux, but they didn't tend to stay in one place for long.

 

[Enoch111]

Do unbelievers have spirit?

The soul is alive but the spirit it dead. Dead "in trespasses and sins". That is why the New Birth is imperative to enter and see the Kingdom of God.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Gods words clearly show (Two Israel's) below

1.) Israel of the flesh (Jews)

2.) Israel of the promised seed (Church)

Scripture clearly teaches Israel of the flesh, they aren't the children of God, it's that simple

Romans 9:6-8KJV

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Yes the Kingdom of God has been taken from National Ethnic Israel, And Given To The Church, a "Holy Nation" as clearly seen below

Matthew 21:43KJV

3 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

1 Peter 2:9KJV

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Well you are correct that God clearly shows two Israels'. You are incorrect in saying that the Church is the Israel of God!

Paul in his writings clearly distinguishes Jew and Gentile. Gods Israel is the spiritual Israel which is in the church!

the nation of Israel is still gods Promised people and covenanted people for as Pual said in reference to jews:

Romans 11:25-31
King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

The Prophets clearly show that Israel was to be set aside as a nation (nit indiviuals) for the calling out of the gentiles a people fo rHis name.

Once that full number of Gentiles are come in- then God once again restores Israel as is promised and prophesied! The promises to Israel still belong to Israel, including the New covenant which replaces the old which Gentiles as people groups were never under.

 

[michaelvpardo]

The soul is alive but the spirit it dead. Dead "in trespasses and sins". That is why the New Birth is imperative to enter and see the Kingdom of God.

I believe your statement, but I'm not sure that it answers the question. (Or i wouldn't have asked it). We understand from the New Testament that the natural state of man is one of enmity with God ( not that He hates man, but that we naturally have a problem with Him). We also have this spiritual definition of death which is not physical death, but separation from God (lost fellowship with God, as there's no escaping His presence). But scripture tells us:
. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now Romans 8:20-22

Now, is Paul defining all creation as humanity, or did he mean what he said? This suggests that birds and beasts, even the potential inhabitants of other worlds will all be delivered from the bondage of corruption. If this is the case, why would God deliver beasts but destroy those outside the church? I can't find a reconciliation to scripture from reformation doctrine, though I find reformation doctrine more grounded in scripture than church dogma.
I suppose that most people are more concerned about their final destiny than about other souls, or the spirits of animals for that matter, but scripture and specifically our Lord, mentions God's care for "sparrows " as an example, as well as a covenant made with the beasts of the Earth immediately after the flood (the "rainbow " covenant is made with both beasts and men. ) I understand that only man was created in His image, but all recieved the breath of life, a metaphor for spirit. Scripture also calls the serpent more accursed than all the beasts, yet God has placed all creation under a curse "for man's sake."
God's revealed purpose in scripture is to renew man in His image, but the Scripture implies a greater unspoken purpose. Who does the church minister to as "rulers " in the millenial kingdom? Do we take turns sitting on thrones to rule over each other? Does God create a worldly hierarchy among Christians when He's defined a very different order for ruling men?
There remains a lot of holes in our doctrines, but we tend to disregard them as irrelevant to our salvation (and they are), but they aren't irrelevant to our understanding of God.

 

[Truth7t7]

the nation of Israel is still gods Promised people and covenanted people for as Pual said in reference to jews:

Romans 11:25-31
King James Version

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

The Prophets clearly show that Israel was to be set aside as a nation (nit indiviuals) for the calling out of the gentiles a people fo rHis name.

Once that full number of Gentiles are come in- then God once again restores Israel as is promised and prophesied! The promises to Israel still belong to Israel, including the New covenant which replaces the old which Gentiles as people groups were never under.

Jesus Christ fulfilled all the promises made to Abraham as seen below

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus Christ fulfilled all the promises made to Abraham as seen below

Galatians 3:16KJV
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

But we are not talking the promises to Abraham, but to the descendants(seeds) of Abrahm, Isaac and Jacob aka Israel. god made specific covenants with Israel that He will fulfill.

The Abrahamic covenant is different from the Davidic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant and the Palestinian or land covenant.

 

[Truth7t7]

But we are not talking the promises to Abraham, but to the descendants(seeds) of Abrahm, Isaac and Jacob aka Israel. god made specific covenants with Israel that He will fulfill.

The Abrahamic covenant is different from the Davidic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant and the Palestinian or land covenant.

By all means start posting these covenants, waiting?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

By all means start posting these covenants, waiting?

The Mosaic covenant also known as the old covenant or the law- was not made with Abraham, but through Moses to the nation of Israel.

The Davidic Covenant made to David and His offspring. To be fulfilled in Jesus

The Land covenant- Made to Israel and the promised land given them, for a perpetual covenant.

The New Covenant , Propheised through Jeremiah to all 12 tribes of Israel.

None of these covenants were made to or through Abraham.

 

[Keraz]

None of these covenants were made to or through Abraham.

You missed Genesis 15:6-19, where God makes a Covenant with Abraham that his descendants will inherit the area from the Nile to the Euphrates. The entire holy holy Land, which his descendants thru Isaac and Jacob, never have inhabited.
Now, since Jesus came, we know from Galatians 3:26-29, 1 Peter 2:9-10, that it isn't Abrahams ethnic descendants, but all those people who have the faith in God, as Abraham did. Who are now the the Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. John sees them in the holy Land in Revelation 7:9.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Mosaic covenant also known as the old covenant or the law- was not made with Abraham, but through Moses to the nation of Israel.

The Davidic Covenant made to David and His offspring. To be fulfilled in Jesus

The Land covenant- Made to Israel and the promised land given them, for a perpetual covenant.

The New Covenant , Propheised through Jeremiah to all 12 tribes of Israel.

None of these covenants were made to or through Abraham.

Not one scripture presented to support your claims, waiting?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You missed Genesis 15:6-19, where God makes a Covenant with Abraham that his descendants will inherit the area from the Nile to the Euphrates. The entire holy holy Land, which his descendants thru Isaac and Jacob, never have inhabited.
Now, since Jesus came, we know from Galatians 3:26-29, 1 Peter 2:9-10, that it isn't Abrahams ethnic descendants, but all those people who have the faith in God, as Abraham did. Who are now the the Christian peoples from every tribe, race, nation and language. John sees them in the holy Land in Revelation 7:9.

Well you forget that the Land covenant was confirmed to Isaac and then reconfirmed to Jacob and His seed(plural) for perpetual generations. so that shoots your theory down.

In both Ex. and Zech. And Jer. God promised the future dispersion of Israel, There divorce and remarriage to Him and there inhabiting the land forever.

If I am not to take God at His Word, why should I take Keraz at his word??????????????????????? You take a passage about teh church being one body and then make it binding on everything Jewish. that is eisegesis and not exegesis. IOW that is spouting opinions and personal interpretations and not what is written.

But then again as you reject Jesus having a 1000 year kingdom on earth, Israe reigning and the gentile nations having to bring offerings to Jerusalem as is written by God, I should not be surprised you would use a verse that does not talk about teh promises made to Israel (not Abraham) and wrongly connect them.