The Gospel of Reconciliation

[JBO]

God still makes the first move.

Yes, 1 John 4:7-21

 

[JBO]

what work?

I was saved by grace.

Your saying your saved by works.

don;t apply something to me that is not true.

You said you responded. That is something you did. And you say doing something you did is works. So were you saved by works.

 

[JBO]

I don;t get it.

Paul makes it clear

For it is by grace We have been saved ( a completed action) period end of discussion.. anyone who will ever be saved is saved By grace,,

But god will not force anyone to be saved and recieve his grace. So paul continues BY FAITH.

Faith is not what saves us, it is how grace is applied to us.

Faith is not a work. Because it does nto earn salvation, it recieves it..

unless you don;t have faith, or you want to do it your own way

Jesus said, to believe in Jesus is work. It clealy it is not in the set of works that Paul spoke against, but it is work.

John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but (work) for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

Jesus said He is that food that they must work for.

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Right on.

God has done all that he can do for the salvation of fallen man, The law has been fulfilled. All sin has been atoned for. We are complete in him, Colossians 2:10. There is one thing that he will not do. He will not force anyone to believe in him and his Son Jesus Christ. If you want to be saved you will have to call on him to save you, Romans 10:13. If you are too proud to do that, then you are lost.

But as many as have Recieved him, to THEM he gave the right to become children of God

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You said you responded. That is something you did. And you say doing something you did is works. So were you saved by works.

I never said anything like this

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus said, to believe in Jesus is work. It clealy it is not in the set of works that Paul spoke against, but it is work.

John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but (work) for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal."

Jesus said He is that food that they must work for.

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst

Yawn, please learn how to read

 

[JBO]

I never said anything like this

You said,

lol. God tries to do it for everyone. its called being drawn to him.. Not everyone will respond though.. Some will reject outright. And some will say thank you God. But I will do it my way.

Did you respond or reject. Either way, it is something you did.

 

[JBO]

Yawn, please learn how to read

LOL I suspect I learned to read before you were even a glint in your father's eye. I suspect I was reading the Bible long before you were even reading about Spot, Dick and Jane.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

So then it is something that you do, even if that is as simple and straightforward as accepting the offer.

Yes. Does that make it a work?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You said,

Did you respond or reject. Either way, it is something you did.

I did not earn my salvation

you work for a reward.

You recieve a gift.

why is this so hard for you to understand?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

LOL I suspect I learned to read before you were even a glint in your father's eye. I suspect I was reading the Bible long before you were even reading about Spot, Dick and Jane.

Thats interesting. Then why is it so hard for you to understand a simple sentence?

When one boasts of how well they can read

then say that when God says it is HIS work that we believe. And you say it is our work.

either your reading skills are off. or maybe you are up in age and are losing some ability which happens with age.

Ido not know how old you are so i will not judge.. but either way.. There is an issue

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Yes, 1 John 4:7-21

Be still my heart.... We agree.

 

[Ritajanice]

You said,

Did you respond or reject. Either way, it is something you did.

Amen!...God is the initiator and God does it all...the process of him drawing us to Jesus etc,etc, and Spirit gives birth to spirit...he does it all.... we are just the vessel that God uses to bring us to his Son , then like the wind, who we can’t see or know where it comes from.or where it’s going.so it is everyone who is Born of the Spirit as he explains to Nicodemus.

 

[Ritajanice]

Also getting on ones knee like the taxman and looking to the serpent to believe is a work and it’s not biblical, it’s just their own spin on what they believe Gods word to be saying.....so I would like the poster to explain this in the Born Again thread...rather than us highjacking this thread again.

 

[Red Baker]

Who is the "we" in Romans 5:10?

( part one of three )

Greetings Jim~Let us look at Romans 5 to get our answer ~ one that you are not hearing, or seeing, thereby not understanding.

Romans 5:8-10~"But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."

v8~But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.​

But God commendeth his love toward us.

Jim, you are not listening to the Holy Ghost speaking through Paul. If you were, then you would at least admit that God commendeth his love not to those who who believe, repent and be baptized, but his love was toward men who were by nature his enemies, even worst, sir, they were at enmity against him, which is worse than a enemy~we were by nature at war against God, his truth, his Son and his people. Read Romans 8:7~which said:

Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

God is love, but He is also wise and glorious; He arranged to love sinners in order to exalt His love. This choice, and the timing, commends ~ exalts, honors, praises – God’s love: we were ungodly. It is by this arrangement of circumstances and timing that exalts and magnifies God’s love for His elect, for He died for them when they had no ability or will to assist or comply or offer Him at all. But God sent His Son Jesus Christ to die for His elect when they were weak and ungodly sinners. To this point (5:6-8), Paul commended God’s gracious gift of His Son by our corrupt condition. Paul then will commend God’s gracious gift that is yet to be realized by the justified elect (5:9-10). Paul then will commend God’s gracious gift by the subsequent life of Jesus Christ for us (5:9-10).

In that, while we were yet sinners~Instead of being God’s righteous and/or good friends, we were His ungodly and sinful enemies.

Here again is the inspired yet, for there was no progress made by our fathers or by us – we were without strength and ungodly (5:6) and sinners (5:8); there was no improvement to motivate Him. Here is the explanation, in that, for how God commended his love – He loved us while His enemies.

We ask you JIm: Did He love sinners, or no (Hab 1:13; Ps 5:5; 11:5)? He loved in election, but Christ died for sinners. Did God love us as sinners in Christ (Eph 1:4; II Tim 1:9)? It is the only way that He could love us.

Christ died for us.~Ah, the love of God. How great it is! It fully crushes and disgraces any story of human affection. Jim, Christ died for US, that is......, "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ"~Romans 1:7!

​

 

[Red Baker]

v9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.​

Much more then.

This verse and the next comprise the second lesson in this wonderful section – a future deliverance.

If God justified us from weakness, ungodliness, sin, and enmity by His Son’s death, how much more then can He guarantee the deliverance of justified men from coming wrath by His Son’s life!

To be short, I ask you and my readers to consider this quesiton~if sinners are justified by Jesus' life, death, resurrection ( by his blood ), and we are according to this one verse and many more throughout the scriptures~ how can anyone preached that we are legally justified by our works, which includes all works/conditions that false religion lays on man to do before he can take comfort of his free salvation from sin and condemnation? I believe Paul when he clearly states:

Being now justified by his blood~Rather than shout about sola fide, let us shout about sola blooda! It is Christ’s blood that justifies.

In what sense then is 5:1, where justification is by faith? They must be grasped separately. Our legal justification before God, changing our standing in heaven, is by Jesus Christ’s death, only.

Our practical justification before God, showing we are justified and righteous, is by our faith.

Legal justification with God was obtained by Jesus Christ’s righteous life and substitutionary death for us, as numerous scriptures abundantly declare (Rom 3:24; 4:25; 8:32-35; Titus 3:7; etc.).

Practical justification, or subjective justification, the evidence and proof we are God’s justified elect is by our faith, which is worthless unless confirmed and complemented by good works following.

Legal salvation by His death guarantees secures salvation by His life (Rom 5:9-10; 8:34; Heb 7:25-27). If justified has been completed by His blood, then He will certainly deliver us from coming wrath.

We shall be saved from wrath through him.

There is a great Day of Judgment coming, toward which the universe moves (Ec 12:13-14; Matthew 25:31-46; John 5:28-29; Romans 2:5,16; 14:10-12; 2nd Corinthians 5:9-11; Hebrews 9:27; Revelation 20:11-15). This epistle after salutation, introduction, and summary immediately told of wrath (Romans 1:18). Jesus Christ paid for our future deliverance from this great Day of Wrath (Ist Thess 1:10). Though we have been saved legally by justification and vitally by regeneration, we yet await the fullness of salvation, when we shall be declared righteous by God and glorified with Him (8:29-30; Romans 13, etc.

Part two of three​

 

[Red Baker]

Part three of three....​

v10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.​

For if, when we were enemies~Paul used this verse to elaborate further the precious lesson introduced in the previous verse (5:9). Notice the much more in this and the previous verse, for Paul had moved up in glory from 5:6-8. The two improvements over 5:6-8 are (1) we are now justified and reconciled as sons of God, and (2) it is the victorious and powerful life of Jesus as Surety and Mediator that guarantees the future.

We were reconciled to God~God was in Jesus Christ as His mighty Mediator reconciling His elect to Himself (II Cor 5:18-20). Reconciliation, a relational term, tells of God having His animosity and enmity against us removed. It is this great work of God, satisfying His own just wrath, that made Jesus the Mediator (Ist Timothy 2:5).

By the death of his Son~Jim, it is very clear that by Jesus' death God's elect were reconcile to him! You can fight this truth, but you are only fighting against God and his testimony concerning the doctrine of reconciliation of sinners by the life, death and resurrection for his elect. Jim, Jesus died for our sins, shed His blood, but now He makes intercession for us (Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25)~he does not make intercession for his enemies, he has wrath stored up for them!

Much more~Notice the much more in this and the previous verse, for Paul had moved up in glory from 5:6-8.

If the death of Jesus Christ could reconcile us to God from His enmity for us, then how much more certainly will His life deliver those reconciled children from the coming Day of Judgment? Glory!

If His death accomplished reconciliation, how much more will His intercessory life accomplish? HIs death did not just make it available, but actually secured our reconciliation in full.

If we rightly appreciate the value of scripture for our comfort and faith, we will love these words. If you believe and trust salvation past, you can surely do so for that in the future by much more then.

Being reconciled.Jim, reconciliation is a past and completed event by our Lord’s death satisfying claims of God’s justice. The apostle declared plainly enough to Corinth about its past fulfillment by Jesus (2nd Corinthians 5:18-19). The preaching of salvation declares the end of hostilities from God’s side and asks for surrender. If Christ’s intercessory life began with us reconciled, how certain and sure our salvation by His life!

We shall be saved by his life~Jim, please take notice...If we were saved by his life, then we are not saved by any work that we must do, as you vainly teach. There is no condemnation to those called to be saints based upon Jesus' faith, obedience and righteousness. Because it is by virtue of Jesus Christ’s death for us and life for us that we are saved from sin and condemnation. What we enjoy is on the behalf of what Jesus did for us! Philippians 1:28,29. ...it cannot be both!

 

[JBO]

Yes. Does that make it a work?

Yes, it makes it a work. But it is not a work of the law, and that is the key.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the Law says, it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be closed and all the world may become accountable to God;
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

Paul is not saying that no one will be justified in His sight by doing something. He is saying no one will be justified in His sight by doing the works of the Law. That distinction is important and is so very often ignored and rejected. Then Paul proceeds in verses 21 through 31 to discuss the righteousness of God through faith. He does so, in part, because so many of the Jews, and specifically the Scribes and the Pharisees, seriously thought that they would get to heaven by keeping the Law of Moses. Recall the parable Jesus told about the Pharisee and the tax collector in Luke 18. Paul was constantly being confronted by the Judaizers and he actually spent a good bit of time rebutting their views on such things. That is what Paul is doing in Romans 3. In fact the entire passage in Romans from 1:18 through 3:20 is Paul's assertion of the impotence of the law as a way of salvation. He then follows that with his discussion Romans 3:21 through 5:21 of the all-sufficiency of grace as the way of salvation.

So I repeat. Paul nowhere here or elsewhere ever says that you don't have to do anything to be saved.

 

[Red Baker]

We cannot reconcile ourselves to God by works, laws or religion. The Catholic church cannot reconcile anyone to God. If you believe that it can, you have been deceived. Many believe that they can reconcile themselves to God by keeping the commandments. Others believe that they can reconcile themselves to God by living holy lives. If you believe that you can do something or become something that will reconcile you into God, you have been deceived.

Why is this so? It is so, because we have ALREADY been reconciled unto God by Jesus Christ. Multitudes are trying to do in their flesh through works, laws and religion what God has ALREADY done in Jesus Christ.

"God was in Christ reconciling us and the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation" 2 Corinthians 5:19.

Before we were ever born Jesus had ALREADY reconciled us and the world unto God. This is the good news of the Gospel. God now stands before us with open arms saying... "Though your sins be as scarlet, they can be as white as snow" Isaiah 1:18. God offers reconciliation to everyone that wants it. If you don't want to be reconciled unto God, you don't have to. God is not going to threaten you. It's your choice.

Those that have rejected God's offer of reconciliation through Jesus Christ and are trying to reconcile themselves to God through works, laws and religion are still enemies with God. When they die in their sins, they will go into the judgment and be judged and condemned. God has done all that he can do to save us and reconcile us to himself through Jesus Christ. All that we have to do to be saved is to accept our reconciler, who is Jesus Christ and God's offer to be reconciled.

Sir, you are doing what many do in religion, talking out of both sides of your mouth~you are contradicting yourself and you seem to not even know you are doing so, this is called deceiving self.

You said in one breath:

We cannot reconcile ourselves to God by works, laws or religion. The Catholic church cannot reconcile anyone to God. If you believe that it can, you have been deceived. Many believe that they can reconcile themselves to God by keeping the commandments. Others believe that they can reconcile themselves to God by living holy lives. If you believe that you can do something or become something that will reconcile you into God, you have been deceived.

Then in your next breath said:

Before we were ever born Jesus had ALREADY reconciled us and the world unto God. This is the good news of the Gospel. God now stands before us with open arms saying... "Though your sins be as scarlet, they can be as white as snow" Isaiah 1:18. God offers reconciliation to everyone that wants it. If you don't want to be reconciled unto God, you don't have to. God is not going to threaten you. It's your choice.

So, God has done his part, now man must do his part before he is reconcile unto God?

Sir, any way you slice and dice your words, they still loudly proclaim a work gospel, and said that God has NOT reconcile the world ( Jews and Gentiles ) unto him. That's another gospel.

So, has Jesus or has he not reconcile God's elect unto God by his life, death and resurrection? I say that he has indeed and not one of them will be lost.

 

[JBO]

( part one of three )

Greetings Jim~Let us look at Romans 5 to get our answer ~ one that you are not hearing, or seeing, thereby not understanding.

v8~But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.​

But God commendeth his love toward us.

Jim, you are not listening to the Holy Ghost speaking through Paul. If you were, then you would at least admit that God commendeth his love not to those who who believe, repent and be baptized, but his love was toward men who were by nature his enemies, even worst, sir, they were at enmity against him, which is worse than a enemy~we were by nature at war against God, his truth, his Son and his people. Read Romans 8:7~which said:

God is love, but He is also wise and glorious; He arranged to love sinners in order to exalt His love. This choice, and the timing, commends ~ exalts, honors, praises – God’s love: we were ungodly. It is by this arrangement of circumstances and timing that exalts and magnifies God’s love for His elect, for He died for them when they had no ability or will to assist or comply or offer Him at all. But God sent His Son Jesus Christ to die for His elect when they were weak and ungodly sinners. To this point (5:6-8), Paul commended God’s gracious gift of His Son by our corrupt condition. Paul then will commend God’s gracious gift that is yet to be realized by the justified elect (5:9-10). Paul then will commend God’s gracious gift by the subsequent life of Jesus Christ for us (5:9-10).

In that, while we were yet sinners~Instead of being God’s righteous and/or good friends, we were His ungodly and sinful enemies.

Here again is the inspired yet, for there was no progress made by our fathers or by us – we were without strength and ungodly (5:6) and sinners (5:8); there was no improvement to motivate Him. Here is the explanation, in that, for how God commended his love – He loved us while His enemies.

We ask you JIm: Did He love sinners, or no (Hab 1:13; Ps 5:5; 11:5)? He loved in election, but Christ died for sinners. Did God love us as sinners in Christ (Eph 1:4; II Tim 1:9)? It is the only way that He could love us.

Christ died for us.~Ah, the love of God. How great it is! It fully crushes and disgraces any story of human affection. Jim, Christ died for US, that is......, "To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ"~Romans 1:7!

​

All that is nice, even though I disagree with some of it, but you failed to identify who the "we" are in Romans 5:10. You did lay out who they once were, namely, sinners. However, those he is writing to are no longer sinners. In fact, Paul begins chapter 5 with, "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith...." They are no longer sinners, they are saints.

And for what it is worth, I really do with you would stop with the Old English designation of the Holy Spirit as a ghost. It is a serious misnomer in modern English, in which the word ghost specifically means "the soul of a dead person, a disembodied spirit imagined, usually as a vague, shadowy or evanescent form, as wandering among or haunting living persons." That is not a description of the Holy Spirit.