The faithful and the saints: Bringing Calvinism and Arminianism together.
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So…mercy is to treat a man who did something wrong as if he instead did something right…? So it’s like make believe?
No, I'm not playing "Let's Pretend" when I say, Though you've hated me, yet will I not hold that against you, but will love you. Though you are my enemy, yet will I save you. Mercy and truth.
Much love!
No mercy is to spare the sinner from his or her just punishment. Grace is to deem a sinner as righteous as Christ because that person has repented and believed on the Lord Jesus Christ. It is NOT make believe since God imputes righteousness when He justifies by His grace.
Desire Of All Nations
Well-Known Member
Contrary to what you seem to believe, God choosing people isn't exclusive from His grace. Read the OT scriptures where God talks about choosing Jacob's descendants to be His people, even though they were lowly slaves and did nothing to deserve such an honor. That's grace. God choosing and calling the patriarchs, Noah, Enoch, Abel, the prophets, etc. were all acts of God extending His grace to them. People erroneously believe grace is a concept that is exclusive to the NT because they don't know or understand what grace actually is.
It doesn't really matter what you personally believe. A Christian is supposed to believe what the Bible says, and it shows Paul saying in 2 Corinthians that it is completely possible for a believer to serve a false Christ. Therefore, whoever is serving a false Christ isn't serving the Christ. The belief that every believer is serving Jesus is akin to believing a counterfeit $20 bill that was printed up in someone's garage is just as legal as an authentic $20 bill that was issued by the U.S. government.
You are woefully wrong:
“But he who endures to the end shall be saved." - Matt. 24:13
“Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life." - Rev. 2:10
It is about being faithful, and it always has been about being faithful. As James said, faith that doesn't include obeying God is completely worthless.
That's not what Jesus says:
“The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.” - Mar. 1:15
Jesus said repent AND believe the gospel. Jesus did not say "repent or believe the gospel". The word "and" automatically implies two or more parts are being joined together as 1 thing. And since Jesus said "repent and believe the gospel", the implication is being made 100% clear that being faithful is part of that gospel!
Tit. 1:16 and 2 Cor. 11 debunks this theology. Paul's letters are perfectly consistent with Jesus saying that not everyone who claims to be a Christian is in fact a Christian. The Bible only refers to true followers of God as saints, not people who merely believe in His existence. They are not the same thing, especially because Paul spent 2 Cor. 11 talking about false converts teaching false ideas of Christ and false gospels. People who teach those things are clearly not saints.
It is mentioned in 2 Sam. 6:6 that Uzzah's intent was to steady the ark from falling off the cart because the oxen driving the cart had stumbled on the road.
I think grace is kindness and mercy shown. It’s not really to deem someone to be something they aren’t. It’s just kindness and mercy. I’m not sure why men have decided grace is to deem someone to be something they aren’t…isn’t it enough to be shown mercy and be forgiven?
But if a man thinks he is “deemed” (whatever that means) to be as righteous as a righteous man, even if he isnt, the man sure isn’t going to ask for what he lacks. You have told him he has no lack. I’ve never seen a rich man begging. Is a man going to hunger for righteousness in his inner man and ask from that hunger if he thinks he’s already righteous? And…you don’t have because you don’t ask has to mean something, doesn’t it?
But if you convince a man he’s rich and in need of nothing, he certainly won’t ask for what he lacks.
It just makes no rational sense. And worse, it keeps him from more grace.
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Did you carefully read what I wrote? And do you know nothing about justification by grace through faith and imputed righteousness?
Naomi25
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God’s mercy and grace to those ‘found in Christ’ is called, in theological terms, “imputed righteousness”. It’s a core doctrine…fundamental to our understanding of our salvation.
Romans 4:7-8
“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”
2 Corinthians 5:19-21
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
This is no ‘make believe’…and even though we do not live perfect lives, when God looks at us, he sees Christ’s perfection. This is also sometimes called ‘the great exchange’.
Without this doctrine, Christ lived a perfect life, this is true, and he died a sacrificial death…but it did nothing for us…could do nothing for us. Unless the ‘great exchange’ occurred, then we are still in our sins and counted unrighteous.
The problem is, I don’t see those doctrines in those scriptures. At all.
And “so that we might become” does not read like “so we are.”
Would I say, I planted this seed today and hope it might become an apple tree. Or do I say, I planted this seed today and it is now an apple tree?
And “so that we might become” does not read like “so we are.”
Would I say, I planted this seed today and hope it might become an apple tree. Or do I say, I planted this seed today and it is now an apple tree?
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Got to love people who think they can be worthy.
I will add yu to my prayer list
Lambano
Well-Known Member
Watch what Jesus did. Those who think they are holy and righteous need to be broken. Those who are broken and know it need to be told they are clean.
I spoke when I should have listened. Now I will watch.
There are all kinds of men with all kinds of upbringings. Some had a relatively good childhood, some had a terrifying childhood. God gives every man what he can bear when he can bear it and you have to let men alone with God some. If you see a simple man and can see his heart is tender and circumcised by God, you worry less for him, even if you think he has some things twisted up in a knot. You know Father knows what He’s doing. It’s when you see a man in such certainties that he is abusive and beating and murdering others with his tongue that you worry for him because you know the awful tumble he is going to have. Paul said he tried to be all things to all men if he might save or help a few. So with a simple and gentle man, be simple and gentle. After all, will he even hear you if he sees you look and sound nothing like his Lord?
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Lambano
Well-Known Member
oh hey, I forgot, what were those 3 terms you said to look up and see which one you thought sounded most terrible? I remember I wanted to look them up. Was it in this thread?
So that’s not what I thought we were talking about. I was specifically addressing the added part of the simple meaning of grace. The one that says: Part of grace is that I’m righteous even when I do unrighteously because God doesn’t see me but sees Jesus…Because I don’t say or think that. I say, even when I do unrighteously, He will forgive me because His mercy is tremendous and I will ask Him when I see I lack and need more grace and power.
There is a righteousness that comes by trust. It’s not a He doesn’t see me adjustment. It’s an actual power to stop murdering in my heart and mind. It’s a great relief to no longer be ruled over by your passions inside. And don’t ask me how He does it, you just ask and He does. He first shows me what I’m doing wrong that seems like no big deal because everyone’s doing it at all times inside so it just seems normal. That makes me ask for what I see I lack. If I can’t see it, I won’t ask.
It isn’t, (or wasn’t for me), immediate. But : after you’ve struggled with sin for awhile, He will strengthen, confirm and establish you in the inside of your cup.
He blesses those who hunger for righteousness in their hearts. But first, He let’s you hunger to see what you will do. Will you keep trusting and keep asking, or will you think since no man can see what’s in your heart it’s okay because the outside of your cup looks clean to others. God desires truth in the inward parts. He sees the heart and mind of a man. Some men’s sins are out in the open. Other men’s sins are hidden inside and will be seen in the end.
But until you will agree with Him that to have anger in your heart is to have already murdered a man, you won’t get anywhere, because for two men to walk together they have to be in agreement.
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