The faithful and the saints: Bringing Calvinism and Arminianism together.

[amigo de christo]

To you who parse between "saints" and "believers", to what do you attribute the lack of separation of these terms in the Bible? That what is addressed to one is addressed to the other? While they are different words, and point to different things, one reflecting what we do, and one reflecting what we become, what Paul addresses to the "faithful" he likewise addresses to the "saint", and these are used quite interchangeably.

How do you account for a lack of distinction? Not just that both words are used, but the utter lack of anything that shows in Scripture that these refer to different people?

Speaking of opinions, does that mean this is simply another unsupported opinion?

Much love!

Read all the letters . It will become very clear and very quick that paul was calling those who BELEIVED IN JESUS SAINTS .

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The interminable OSAS debates seem to be more about controlling somebody else's behavior that the other person finds objectionable.

hmm…I think you’re onto something there…by George, I REALLY think you are…

 

[stunnedbygrace]

There is no difference. Paul addressed all believers as saints, even those at Corinth who were being carnal.

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

You will note that "to be" is in italics, which means the translators inserted those words. But the Greek said "called saints". Why? Because they were "sanctified in Christ Jesus". When believers are placed into the Body of Christ, then they are "sanctified in Christ Jesus". This is a work of God. So every believer is a saint, and ought to live like one.

you have the majority of people on your side, that’s for sure!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

To you who parse between "saints" and "believers", to what do you attribute the lack of separation of these terms in the Bible?

Translation error?
Lack of humility error?

That’s all I got, my two best guesses.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Embarrassingly enough, an elderly lady just called me a "saint" for a small act of kindness. Unfortunately, my halo is tarnished, it doesn't fit right, and I'm wearing it crooked.

It would be more accurate to say I recognize God has different ways of calling believers and acknowledge His sovereign right to do so.

And even though we disagree on holiness, I still recognize you as a beloved child of God. So there!

well how DARE you recognize me!

 

[marks]

Translation error?
Lack of humility error?

That’s all I got, my two best guesses.

I just stick with what's written, and so I don't have to answer those kinds of questions, "How do you get that when it's not there?"

Much love!

 

[marks]

There is no difference. Paul addressed all believers as saints, even those at Corinth who were being carnal.

Just so! But do people care about little details like that! Apparently some do not.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

Again, Its not the perseverance issue, It is where is ones faith placed issue.

I don’t know what Arminians you’ve been talking to, but anyone with the self-awareness of a Golden Retriever or higher knows their own faithfulness ebbs and flows, waxes and wanes. Our faith is in Jesus Christ, not in our own faith.

Sadly, I have met a few folks without that level of self-awareness.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I just stick with what's written, and so I don't have to answer those kinds of questions, "How do you get that when it's not there?"

Much love!

Because I see a difference between me and someone performing miracles?

 

[Lambano]

Because I see a difference between me and someone performing miracles?

That’s just a calling to different tasks. God may have more mundane tasks for you and me, but that’s okay. Remember, “We can do no great things; only small things with great love”. The woman who said that did great things. If done with love, even God’s mundane tasks can have an aura of holiness and meaningfulness.

Now go straighten up your halo; it’s flopping down over your face.

 

[Lambano]

hmm…I think you’re onto something there…by George, I REALLY think you are…

I am and I think our brother knows exactly what I’m talking about.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

That’s just a calling to different tasks. God may have more mundane tasks for you and me, but that’s okay. Remember, “We can do no great things; only small things with great love”. The woman who said that did great things. If done with love, even mundane tasks can have an aura of holiness and meaningfulness.

Now go straighten up your halo; it’s flopping down over your face.

ah…I’m still not buying it. I think you’re still a little conflicted. You CAN see a difference between righteousness and holiness though…it takes time before you can handle it in a facile manner.
But, you do grasp it, so it will be in the back of your mind when you read and you will start being able to examine which a verse is speaking of.

 

[marks]

Because I see a difference between me and someone performing miracles?

I'm talking about how the Bible addresses those it calls faithful and those it calls saints, in the context of this discussion, these are one and the same. That some perform miracles and others do not, but have different gifts, this doesn't change the fact that there isn't actually a distinction made in the Bible between "faithful" and "saint".

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I'm talking about how the Bible addresses those it calls faithful and those it calls saints, in the context of this discussion, these are one and the same. That some perform miracles and others do not, but have different gifts, this doesn't change the fact that there isn't actually a distinction made in the Bible between "faithful" and "saint".

Much love!

Well that’s why I like to use the words righteous versus holy.
While it’s rare to find a man who can understand it, those words usually work if he can see it.

 

[marks]

ah…I’m still not buying it. I think you’re still a little conflicted.

@Lambano is right on this. The appearance, the "grandeur" in our own eyes, that doesn't matter. Either our works are righteous, or they are not, and either they come from our inclusion into God's holiness, of they do not. Big or small. And the small things in our own eyes may be much larger in God's eyes.

We don't do "great things". Let us only say, I'm just doing my duty. The greatest things we do in our own eyes cannot be any greater than just the slave following his Master's command. Else we do it of ourselves, for our own reasons.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

ah…I’m still not buying it. I think you’re still a little conflicted. You CAN see a difference between righteousness and holiness though…it takes time before you can handle it in a facile manner.
But, you do grasp it, so it will be in the back of your mind when you read and you will start being able to examine which a verse is speaking of.

I’m probably more muddled about it now than when we started. Your questions have led me somewhere I wasn’t expecting.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

@Lambano is right on this.

Yes, but which thing he has said is he right on??
That there is a difference between righteous and holiness?
Or that there isn’t really?

 

[marks]

Well that’s why I like to use the words righteous versus holy.
While it’s rare to find a man who can understand it, those words usually work if he can see it.

Both are used, both are important, and both need to be understood. They are not the same, but are very intertwined.

A holy person does what is righteous, but God also makes people righteous. He also makes people holy.

The commonality and difference between righteous and holy is something I continue to meditate on. To my thinking, righteous speaks more to quality, and holy speaks more to purpose.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The interminable OSAS debates seem to be more about controlling somebody else's behavior that the other person finds objectionable.

I think that's true of many debates.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I’m probably more muddled about it now that when we started. Your questions have led me somewhere I wasn’t expecting.

I feel ya, brother. Same as me when my friend shared it with me.

Annais and Saphira? Messing around with holiness.

The guy who argued with God about going to a certain street NOT struck dead? Righteousness.

Uzzah struck dead? Holiness.

it takes awhile but lambano, it begins to unlock all the stuck places! A lot of them anyway.