The faithful and the saints: Bringing Calvinism and Arminianism together.

[Eternally Grateful]

Mmmm ... maybe. Different gospels? Both sides, of course, accept Paul's summary of "the Gospel".

15 Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, 2 by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures... (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

However, one side of the debate would claim that the Saint class and the Believer class must necessarily be one and the same. What, the "L" you say? As of the time of this writing, the debate about the identity of "our" is up to, let's see, 140 pages and 2781 posts now. My own opinion on that subject was post #1493 of that thread. My very first post on this board.

I still don't see any exegetical or hermeneutical justification for understanding the words "saints" and "believers" differently, but I believe the concept David H. has presented may well be true. Thinking about it, my position pretty much logically requires the concept of both an irresistibly-called class and a free-will-called class of believers in order to remain true to scripture. Words versus the concepts they describe. This has been a good thread.

I am sorry my friend I can not agree

One side teaches salvation can be lost, its based on what we do

The other side teaches salvation can not be lost because it is not based on us.

They teach two different gospels.

 

[Lambano]

I am sorry my friend I can not agree

One side teaches salvation can be lost, its based on what we do

The other side teaches salvation can not be lost because it is not based on us.

They teach two different gospels.

Perseverance is a side issue, not the Gospel.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Perseverance is a side issue, not the Gospel.

I am not talking about perseverance.

I am talking about where ones faith is placed.

A Calvinist places their total faith in Christ

An Armenian by definition has to place faith in self. Otherwise. There could be no loss of salvation possible.

 

[Lambano]

I am not talking about perseverance.

I am talking about where ones faith is placed.

A Calvinist places their total faith in Christ

An Armenian by definition has to place faith in self. Otherwise. There could be no loss of salvation possible.

Not correct, and that is a common misunderstanding of Arminian theology. It is analogous to saying a Calvinist has faith in a presumed decision that was made before the foundation of the world, not in Christ. If you want what I consider a good, reasonably fair reference for understanding the Arminian position, I recommend Robert Picirilli's Grace, Faith, and Free Will. Then we can talk about what we really believe, not strawmen characterizations.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Not correct, and that is a common misunderstanding of Arminian theology. It is analogous to saying a Calvinist has faith in a presumed decision that was made before the foundation of the world, not in Christ. If you want what I consider a good, reasonably fair reference for understanding the Arminian position, I recommend Robert Picirilli's Grace, Faith, and Free Will. Then we can talk about what we really believe, not strawmen characterizations.

Do Armenians teach salvation can be lost? I have yet to meet one (I have only met a few mind you) and they all believe salvation can be lost. One of their biggest arguments against calvinisim is the fact Calvinists think salvation is eternally secure. Which they reject.

I have disagree free will with a few of them. It just shows they are trusting in self and their ability to keep trusting Christ, and not Christ and his ability to keep them

John said our faith is rooted in the fact we know we have eternal life. An arminian type person does not believe we have it and our salvation is rooted in keeping faith. Not our faith being rooted in the promise of God,

 

[Lambano]

Laying down my sword. Ain't a-gonna study war no more.

 

[Lambano]

Most Arminians don’t worry about apostatizing precisely because we DO trust Christ, and believe He is worthy of trust. Instead, we worry we weren’t elected before the foundation of the world, our trust in Christ is in vain, and there is no gospel for us because Christ didn’t die for our sins as 1 Corinthians 15:3 says.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I've come to define agapao love as one's commitment to the wellbeing of others.

Much love!

I see it more as…that you are concerned for the well-being of others at least as much as your own. In my mind I see it that way.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I disagree at a couple of points. First and most important, you are not a Temple pot; you're a beloved daughter of the King. Second, regarding "ONLY": God gave you freedom. Your holiness is making yourself available for His use WHEN HE WANTS TO USE YOU. And responding affirmatively when He calls. When you and He have accomplished whatever task He had in mind, you are once again free until He has another task. Freedom is a gift; use it wisely.

BTW, this kind of freedom applies to both Saints and Believers

So you are no longer a slave, but a daughter, and if a daughter, then an heir through God. (Galatians 4:7)

See how great a love the Father has given us, that we would be called children of God; and in fact we are. (1 John 3:1)

I am heartened that you see a difference between saints and believers. I don’t agree with what you say about holiness, but you see a difference at least, which is rare!

 

[marks]

I see it more as…that you are concerned for the well-being of others at least as much as your own. In my mind I see it that way.

To me it's more like, instead of your own.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

To me it's more like, instead of your own.

Much love!

Hah! You are entitled to your opinion!

 

[marks]

Hah! You are entitled to your opinion!

For me, walking in the Spirit includes caring for others while allowing God to care for me.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Perseverance is a side issue, not the Gospel.

Perserverance either comes from God or comes from yourself. If it comes from God, "salvation" is one thing. If it comes from yourself, "salvation" is a very different thing. Yes . . . two gospels.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Mmmm ... maybe. Different gospels? Both sides, of course, accept Paul's summary of "the Gospel".

15 Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, 2 by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures... (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

The Gospel as presented here is exclusively this, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised from the dead on the third day.

It's exclusively what Jesus did.

Much love!

 

[marks]

To you who parse between "saints" and "believers", to what do you attribute the lack of separation of these terms in the Bible? That what is addressed to one is addressed to the other? While they are different words, and point to different things, one reflecting what we do, and one reflecting what we become, what Paul addresses to the "faithful" he likewise addresses to the "saint", and these are used quite interchangeably.

How do you account for a lack of distinction? Not just that both words are used, but the utter lack of anything that shows in Scripture that these refer to different people?

Speaking of opinions, does that mean this is simply another unsupported opinion?

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

The Gospel as presented here is exclusively this, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised from the dead on the third day.

It's exclusively what Jesus did.

Much love!

This is a point which both the Arminian and Calvinist sides SHOULD agree. Though you'll note in verse 2 Paul does exhort his audience to hold tight, i.e. continue trusting in what Jesus has done.

Perseverance should not be an issue. The interminable OSAS debates seem to be more about controlling somebody else's behavior that the other person finds objectionable.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

This is a point which both the Arminian and Calvinist sides SHOULD agree. Though you'll note in verse 2 Paul does exhort his audience to hold tight, i.e. continue trusting in what Jesus has done.

Perseverance should not be an issue. The interminable OSAS debates seem to be more about controlling somebody else's behavior that the other person finds objectionable.

Can you explain this please, Controlling someones behavior?

Again, Its not the perseverance issue, It is where is ones faith placed issue.

Perseverance can be a bad, thing, Depending on how it is seen.

 

[Lambano]

I am heartened that you see a difference between saints and believers. I don’t agree with what you say about holiness, but you see a difference at least, which is rare!

Embarrassingly enough, an elderly lady just called me a "saint" for a small act of kindness. Unfortunately, my halo is tarnished, it doesn't fit right, and I'm wearing it crooked.

It would be more accurate to say I recognize God has different ways of calling believers and acknowledge His sovereign right to do so.

And even though we disagree on holiness, I still recognize you as a beloved child of God. So there!

 

[Enoch111]

I am heartened that you see a difference between saints and believers.

There is no difference. Paul addressed all believers as saints, even those at Corinth who were being carnal.

Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

You will note that "to be" is in italics, which means the translators inserted those words. But the Greek said "called saints". Why? Because they were "sanctified in Christ Jesus". When believers are placed into the Body of Christ, then they are "sanctified in Christ Jesus". This is a work of God. So every believer is a saint, and ought to live like one.

 

[amigo de christo]

The Gospel as presented here is exclusively this, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised from the dead on the third day.

It's exclusively what Jesus did.

Much love!

And john said if men dont bring this gospel , FLEE THEM .
The glorious gospel . That if you shall confess with the mouth JESUS and believe from the heart that GOD has rose HIM
from the dead you shall be saved . For with the heart man believes unto righteousness and with the mouth confession
of JESUS CHRIST is made unto SALVATION . Dont heed a word of this all inclusive gospel which francis and many others
have brought into the churches . That thing is a sham and a lie .
Though i know you dont believe that junk . I Do want to give us another reminder .
Mr inclusive teaches that if muslims and buddists do good works they know God and are saved . But that is a lie .
CORNELIOUS . REMEMBER CORNELIOUS .
That man believed IN THE GOD of abraham issac and jacob , HE did many good works , many prayers
many alms to the poor . YET HE STILL NEEDED ONE THING . SEND FOR PETER and HE WILL TELL YOU WHAT YOU OUGHT TO DO .
If doing good works and many prayers and alms could have saved CORNELIOIUS , WHY DID HE HAVE TO SEND FOR PETER
and BELEIVE IN THE GOSPEL . Exactly . ONLY FAITH IN JESUS SAVES . TAKE IT TO YOUR GRAVE MY FRIEND . NEVER let them sway us .