The faithful and the saints: Bringing Calvinism and Arminianism together.

[stunnedbygrace]

One source defined ἀγαπάω (agapao, to love, the verb cognate of Agape) as when the beloved one's happiness and well-being is essential to that of the one loving. I love that definition of love.

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

If agape means loving others at least as much as I love myself, that's what I think righteousness is.

Loving God as completely as that verse says, that's what I think holiness must be...

 

[Lambano]

If agape means loving others at least as much as I love myself, that's what I think righteousness is.

Loving God as completely as that verse says, that's what I think holiness must be...

Actually, I would put that into the "Righteousness" category. δικαιοσύνη: dikaiosune; Righteousness; justice or the virtue which gives each his due. God is due our whole-hearted, whole-minded love, where His desires are essential to our own.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Actually, I would put that into the "Righteousness" category. δικαιοσύνη: dikaiosune; Righteousness; justice or the virtue which gives each his due. God is due our whole-hearted, whole-minded love, where His desires are essential to our own.

Yes, I agree God is due that. But there's the problem of my will and also in not completely trusting all He has said and does and brings to me and remaining in that trust.

My will has to go. It has to ..die.

 

[David H.]

So...you mean like...no, I'm still confused. Does agape love mean love for others?

To use The Apostle John's words, it is God's love being perfected in us, It is us learning to love like Christ loved us (Jesus' "new commandment") by laying down His life for us. It is more than just brotherly love, but sacrificial love. "Not my will but thine be done" as Jesus prayed in Gethsemane. Martyrdom is often associated with the saint, though not all saints are martyred. What they are is a testimony (martyria) of the Work of God in us, Just like Job, who was allowed to suffer for the Will of God. It is the saints who overcome Satan in Revelation 12:11 that lesd to his being cast down to earth.

 

[David H.]

My will has to go. It has to ..die.

Amen. Not my will but thy will be done (Luke 22:42)

 

[David H.]

My time is up for today, Keep the conversation going as this is being fruitful.
God Bless

 

[Eternally Grateful]

As it sits right now this is true, But with rightly delineating between the faithful and the saints this would resolve itself.

can you explain?

how would this resolve the issue of a different gospel?

Its not about who is faithful. It is what is our faith in for salvation.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

To use The Apostle John's words, it is God's love being perfected in us, It is us learning to love like Christ loved us (Jesus' "new commandment") by laying down His life for us. It is more than just brotherly love, but sacrificial love. "Not my will but thine be done" as Jesus prayed in Gethsemane. Martyrdom is often associated with the saint, though not all saints are martyred. What they are is a testimony (martyria) of the Work of God in us, Just like Job, who was allowed to suffer for the Will of God. It is the saints who overcome Satan in Revelation 12:11 that lesd to his being cast down to earth.

I think it is the thought that one can learn to love like Jesus loved that I don’t believe. I don’t think it’s a matter of learning to do it as we learn to do other things…

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Agape love is the final step of our sanctification as per the lit in 2 Peter 1:5-9. They are the ones who take up the cross and follow Christ, Just as Christ laid down his life for us saints do the same for others as a testimony of the work of the Holy Spirit in them.

Final step?

Its the first step. We have to learn to love as Christ loved us. Not superficially.

Thew final step in sanctification would be agape love in every area of our life and to every person. And total unselfishness.

Which is our goal. But we would be perfect if this could happen. It won;t happen this lifetime

we grow by trusting God in different areas, the more areas we trust God in, the more mature we are. And these areas of trust can change over a lifetime..

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I was just having a private conversation with a friend and I want to post about part of it.

Thinking of holiness as set apart from the world doesn’t mean anything I can really understand.but I can see it in this way - if a clay pot was set apart for use in the temple, it meant it was to be used for God and ONLY for Gods use. And if it became contaminated, or was used for anything other than Gods use, it had to be destroyed and could not be used again.

I see I obviously do not sit here for ONLY Gods use. I am not holy. I am an ordinary, common clay pot, thank goodness, so I don’t have to be destroyed.

If my own will died, then I believe…well, I don’t know I haven’t got there yet.

 

[Lambano]

Yes, I agree God is due that. But there's the problem of my will and also in not completely trusting all He has said and does and brings to me and remaining in that trust.

My will has to go. It has to ..die.

May gently I disagree with this also? Your will, your wants and needs and desires and plans, are part of what makes you God’s unique creation. A unique creation of which He is quite fond, I might add. It's a part of what makes you, you. Even the Son of God had a will separate from the Father's:

41 And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,
42 Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.
- Luke 22:41-42

So, you are to align your will with the Father's, not kill it.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Mmm…okay, yes sort of. Except my will is traitorous. My will is ugly and self seeking. It’s His will that is good and perfect.

I want His will but if I say that and then get upset and cranky at the circumstance I find myself in, that’s my own will wanting comfortable ness rather than what He has set me in.

 

[Lambano]

I was just having a private conversation with a friend and I want to post about part of it.

Thinking of holiness as set apart from the world doesn’t mean anything I can really understand.but I can see it in this way - if a clay pot was set apart for use in the temple, it meant it was to be used for God and ONLY for Gods use. And if it became contaminated, or was used for anything other than Gods use, it had to be destroyed and could not be used again.

I see I obviously do not sit here for ONLY Gods use. I am not holy. I am an ordinary, common clay pot, thank goodness, so I don’t have to be destroyed.

If my own will died, then I believe…well, I don’t know I haven’t got there yet.

I disagree at a couple of points. First and most important, you are not a Temple pot; you're a beloved daughter of the King. Second, regarding "ONLY": God gave you freedom. Your holiness is making yourself available for His use WHEN HE WANTS TO USE YOU. And responding affirmatively when He calls. When you and He have accomplished whatever task He had in mind, you are once again free until He has another task. Freedom is a gift; use it wisely.

BTW, this kind of freedom applies to both Saints and Believers

So you are no longer a slave, but a daughter, and if a daughter, then an heir through God. (Galatians 4:7)

See how great a love the Father has given us, that we would be called children of God; and in fact we are. (1 John 3:1)

 

[Lambano]

Mmm…okay, yes sort of. Except my will is traitorous. My will is ugly and self seeking. It’s His will that is good and perfect.

I want His will but if I say that and then get upset and cranky at the circumstance I find myself in, that’s my own will wanting comfortable ness rather than what He has set me in.

Me too, sister. Me too. But He loves us anyway. (Thank you, God!) And that's one of the reasons I want to love Him right back.

We love Him, because He first loved us. (1 John 4:19)

 

[Lambano]

Your holiness is making yourself available for His use WHEN HE WANTS TO USE YOU. And responding affirmatively when He calls.

If somebody wants to point out that our holiness is due to our position as adopted daughters and sons of God, I would absolutely accept correction on that point.

 

[marks]

One source defined ἀγαπάω (agapao, to love, the verb cognate of Agape) as when the beloved one's happiness and well-being is essential to that of the one loving. I love that definition of love.

And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

I've come to define agapao love as one's commitment to the wellbeing of others.

Much love!

 

[marks]

if I may, not to be rude.

but these two sides teach different gospels.

While yes. there are many doctrinal differences. The salvation issue comes first and foremost. And because of this, they can never truly come together.

Yes, there are very different gospels being taught here.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Agape love is the final step of our sanctification as per the lit in 2 Peter 1:5-9.

Rather, this is what qualifies us to begin to edify the church.

Ephesians 4:14-16 KJV
14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16) From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.


Much love!

 

[marks]

If somebody wants to point out that our holiness is due to our position as adopted daughters and sons of God, I would absolutely accept correction on that point.

Rather, our recreation.

Ephesians 4:23-24 KJV
23) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

if I may, not to be rude.

but these two sides teach different gospels.

While yes. there are many doctrinal differences. The salvation issue comes first and foremost. And because of this, they can never truly come together.

Mmmm ... maybe. Different gospels? Both sides, of course, accept Paul's summary of "the Gospel".

15 Now I make known to you, brothers and sisters, the gospel which I preached to you, which you also received, in which you also stand, 2 by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. 3 For I handed down to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures... (1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

However, one side of the debate would claim that the Saint class and the Believer class must necessarily be one and the same. What, the "L" you say? As of the time of this writing, the debate about the identity of "our" is up to, let's see, 140 pages and 2781 posts now. My own opinion on that subject was post #1493 of that thread. My very first post on this board.

I still don't see any exegetical or hermeneutical justification for understanding the words "saints" and "believers" differently, but I believe the concept David H. has presented may well be true. Thinking about it, my position pretty much logically requires the concept of both an irresistibly-called class and a free-will-called class of believers in order to remain true to scripture. Words versus the concepts they describe. This has been a good thread.