The faithful and the saints: Bringing Calvinism and Arminianism together.

[stunnedbygrace]

I feel ya, brother. Same as me when my friend shared it with me.

Annais and Saphira? Messing around with holiness.

The guy who argued with God about going to a certain street NOT struck dead? Righteousness.

Uzzah struck dead? Holiness.

it takes awhile but lambano, it begins to unlock all the stuck places! A lot of them anyway.

It’s kind of like when you think back to some of the things you did as a kid and it hits you - wow…I could have KILLED myself…

And it’s also when you begin to see a lack of fear of God and a lack of humility everywhere you look. You start saying, but…I’ve been scared for the wrong men…!

 

[marks]

This is a point which both the Arminian and Calvinist sides SHOULD agree. Though you'll note in verse 2 Paul does exhort his audience to hold tight, i.e. continue trusting in what Jesus has done.

Perseverance should not be an issue.

2 by which you also are saved, if you hold firmly to the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

This is either descriptive or imperative. Rather than saying something like, "Hold firmly to the work which I preached to you", it says, "if you hold firmly . . ." If you do, than what? You are saved. Otherwise? You believed in vain. That is, believed in an empty and meaningless way, as the seed in the stony soil.

Where perseverance comes in, is, if the Gospel is in Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, then it's completed in our being baptized into Jesus to share those with Him, to be crucified with Christ, to be buried with Christ, hid with Christ in God, to walk in newness of life, having been raised together with Christ.

Believing not in vain means that we hold tightly to the word preached. Not holding tightly does not mean we believed unto salvation, but then our belief became vain, it means we had believed in vain.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You CAN see a difference between righteousness and holiness though…it takes time before you can handle it in a facile manner.

I really think that if we correctly understand Biblical truths, we will not only be able to state them in a simple manner, but that we will be able to do so primarly from direct quotes of the Bible, showing the plain meanings of what is written.

The mysteries hidden deep in Scripture are plainly stated truths that no one recognizes until the Holy Spirit opens their eyes.

Much love!

 

[Lambano]

Yes, but which thing he has said is he right on???

At least half of what I said is probably wrong, but I don’t know which half.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I really think that if we correctly understand Biblical truths, we will not only be able to state them in a simple manner, but that we will be able to do so primarly from direct quotes of the Bible, showing the plain meanings of what is written.

The mysteries hidden deep in Scripture are plainly stated truths that no one recognizes until the Holy Spirit opens their eyes.

Much love!

Proverbs 25:2

 

[marks]

God descends on Mount Horeb in fire . . . Korah dies, he wanted to "be the one" to offer incense.
Fire comes from heaven at the dedication of the tabernacle . . . Aaron's son's died, they wanted to "be the ones" to offer incense.
Fire comes from heaven on Pentacost, Annanias and Sapphira die, they wanted the glory for giving.

God tells Moses "speak to the rock", Moses shouts, "Must WE strike the rock for you?" Moses speaking to the rock is the representative for his people, one of them. In saying, "Must we strike the rock", he separates himself from them, and stands in the place of God, as if Moses were who brought the water out.

Uzzah is someone I'm still thinking on . . . but I know that God said only certain people were to handle the Ark of the Covenant, and Uzzah was not one of those, so like in the other cases, this was someone who did not remain in their given role, but took someone else's role for themself. I don't see that Uzzah had the same motivations as the others, so I'm still thinking about that.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

At least half of what I said is probably wrong, but I don’t know which half.

The error is in mixing righteousness and holiness together.
The error is not having a very healthy fear of messing with Gods holiness.
It’s leaven/teaching of men and we were warned because it’s so difficult to remove it once we’ve swallowed it.

The priest had to wear clean linen. God forbade mixed coverings. No wool, only linen.

 

[marks]

Proverbs 25:2

That doesn't change what I said. He hides things in plain sight. It makes mockery of the wise-in-their-own-eyes.

Much love!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

God descends on Mount Horeb in fire . . . Korah dies, he wanted to "be the one" to offer incense.
Fire comes from heaven at the dedication of the tabernacle . . . Aaron's son's died, they wanted to "be the ones" to offer incense.
Fire comes from heaven on Pentacost, Annanias and Sapphira die, they wanted the glory for giving.

God tells Moses "speak to the rock", Moses shouts, "Must WE strike the rock for you?" Moses speaking to the rock is the representative for his people, one of them. In saying, "Must we strike the rock", he separates himself from them, and stands in the place of God, as if Moses were who brought the water out.

Uzzah is someone I'm still thinking on . . . but I know that God said only certain people were to handle the Ark of the Covenant, and Uzzah was not one of those, so like in the other cases, this was someone who did not remain in their given role, but took someone else's role for themself. I don't see that Uzzah had the same motivations as the others, so I'm still thinking about that.

Much love!

You are thinking it depends on men’s motivation?
That can be true concerning righteousness and training in righteousness, and thank God for that!
But concerning Gods holiness? No. They say the man who went in once a year had a rope tied around him in case he offended holiness. Who could go in to GET him if he died??

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I don’t know what Arminians you’ve been talking to, but anyone with the self-awareness of a Golden Retriever or higher knows their own faithfulness ebbs and flows, waxes and wanes. Our faith is in Jesus Christ, not in our own faith.

Sadly, I have met a few folks without that level of self-awareness.

Well if their faith is in Christ and his promise.

why do they insist we can lose salvation. Is it because they are at war with calvinists and do not even want to make it appear they agree on a doctrine. Or is it because they are in reality trusting themselves in whatever they think must be done to maintain salvation?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

He hides things in plain sight.

Then why did He say:To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

If you think a parable is very plain it is doubtful you’ve understood it…

 

[marks]

The priest had to wear clean linen. God forbade mixed coverings. No wool, only linen.

No flesh, only Christ counts. Nothing else.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Then why did He say:To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.

If you think a parable is very plain it is doubtful you’ve understood it…

We should talk about the parable of the 10 virgins sometime.

I didn't say the meaning of Scripture is plain. I said it's hid in plain sight, but you'll not see it until the Holy Spirit opens your eyes to see it, and then you will see what's been right there in front of you the entire time, only, you didn't recognize it. Once you realize that the words mean exactly what they say, that remains yours.

People come up with all sorts of esoteric and arcane interpretations of the Bible because their eyes have not been opened to see the plainness of it's truth. But their interpretations will always be contrary in some way to the plainly stated truths.

Parables, prophecy, and really all Scripture which contains some ambiguity, a word you could honestly read this way or that way, these are always, I repeat, always made clear by other passages that are not ambiguous.

The spiritual understand of Scripture is that you won't understand it until the Holy Spirit opens your understanding. But you can know whether or not you have the true spiritual understanding because you will see it, be able to quote it, clearly written. And some people will agree with you, and others will maintain their arcane interpretations.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You are thinking it depends on men’s motivation?

I don't know. Uzzah's motives appear to have been that he wanted to protect the Ark. The others show promoting themselves. I don't know that Uzzah didn't have a self-interest, only, that it's not said.

That can be true concerning righteousness and training in righteousness, and thank God for that!
But concerning Gods holiness? No. They say the man who went in once a year had a rope tied around him in case he offended holiness. Who could go in to GET him if he died??

This was true while the former tabernacle stood, but now we have another way to the holy place, through Christ.

Much love!

 

[amigo de christo]

you have the majority of people on your side, that’s for sure!

The scary thing is , i always noticed that what the majority goes for and supports , is contrary to biblical doctrine .
I say this as a blanket statement . A general reminder . Just cause more support it dont mean its TRUTH .
I am just saying this in general , not to accuse anyone .

 

[amigo de christo]

We should talk about the parable of the 10 virgins sometime.

I didn't say the meaning of Scripture is plain. I said it's hid in plain sight, but you'll not see it until the Holy Spirit opens your eyes to see it, and then you will see what's been right there in front of you the entire time, only, you didn't recognize it. Once you realize that the words mean exactly what they say, that remains yours.

People come up with all sorts of esoteric and arcane interpretations of the Bible because their eyes have not been opened to see the plainness of it's truth. But their interpretations will always be contrary in some way to the plainly stated truths.

Parables, prophecy, and really all Scripture which contains some ambiguity, a word you could honestly read this way or that way, these are always, I repeat, always made clear by other passages that are not ambiguous.

The spiritual understand of Scripture is that you won't understand it until the Holy Spirit opens your understanding. But you can know whether or not you have the true spiritual understanding because you will see it, be able to quote it, clearly written. And some will agree with you, and others will maintain their arcane interpretations.

Much love!

The parable of the ten virgins is real simple and can easily be summed up by saying this .
BETTER KNOW JESUS , BETTER BE FOLLOWING HIM , Cause WHEN HE ARRIVES there aint no second chance .
Notice five were wise but five were what ............FOOLISH
and the FOOLISH never got a second chance . You could sum it up by saying , BE WATCHING , BE YE READY
for ye know not the HOUR your LORD does come .

 

[Lambano]

Well if their faith is in Christ and his promise.

why do they insist we can lose salvation. Is it because they are at war with calvinists and do not even want to make it appear they agree on a doctrine. Or is it because they are in reality trusting themselves in whatever they think must be done to maintain salvation?

Both theories must account for the biblical phenomenon of apostasy, in which someone who was trusting Jesus finally and irrevocably stops trusting Jesus (and might even become hostile to Jesus). Homework assignment: Look up the term “arrogated grace”, also known as “temporal grace” or “evanescent grace” and tell me which explanation of apostasy is more horrible.

 

[marks]

The parable of the ten virgins is real simple and can easily be summed up by saying this .
BETTER KNOW JESUS , BETTER BE FOLLOWING HIM , Cause WHEN HE ARRIVES there aint no second chance .
Notice five were wise but five were what ............FOOLISH
and the FOOLISH never got a second chance . You could sum it up by saying , BE WATCHING , BE YE READY
for ye know not the HOUR your LORD does come .

I completely agree.

It's too late to get ready when the bridegroom comes.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Both theories must account for the biblical phenomenon of apostasy, in which someone who was trusting Jesus finally and irrevocably stops trusting Jesus (and might even become hostile to Jesus).

But you must also account for those places that clearly show the children of God never being lost, that those risen with Him will appear with Him, "We know we will be like Him", places like that.

Much love!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Both theories must account for the biblical phenomenon of apostasy, in which someone who was trusting Jesus finally and irrevocably stops trusting Jesus (and might even become hostile to Jesus). Homework assignment: Look up the term “arrogated grace”, also known as “temporal grace” or “evanescent grace” and tell me which explanation of apostasy is more horrible.

A child of God can not lose salvation period.

An apostate was never saved, John said they were never of us

If your depending on your ability or power not to walk away from God and reject him. Then your faith is in your ability. Not Gods ability to keep you from falling.