The Doctrines of Grace

[BreadOfLife]

You gave zero scripture to back up your private interpretation of why you think we should pray to the dead. The scriptures you gave SAY NOTHING ABOUT PRAYING TO THE DEAD.
You assumed that we pray to the dead.
Now you're claiming you didn't.

This new comment below, you have made exposes that you are dishonest and already knew your attempt to show that there are verses in the new testament about praying to the dead are not found in the new testament.

I didn’t say that they said anything about prayers to the dead.

I said that they the intercession of the saints in Heaven TAKING our prayers to God. And Rev. 5:8 shoes just that.

Thanks for exposing yourself. You made my job easy.

Why didn't you tell the truth in the first place that you have no new testament scriptures for praying to the dead.

Now you are claiming you dont have to show Bible verses about your made up catholic doctrines.

Also,
All I've asked you is one question.
Where in the new testament does it teach we are to pray to the dead?

An honest person would have responded that we dont have any Bible verses to back up our teaching on this subject.

Instead you use a horrible tactic by saying I dont have to because you cant prove that we must go by the Bible alone.

That is such a poor argument that it shows your desperation.

Apparently, you’re not very knowledgeable of Scripture, hermeneutics or theological reasoning. Considering your childish tirade - I’m NOT surprised . . .

As I’ve already mentioned - Biblical teaching comes to us in TWO ways:
Explicit teaching and Implicit teaching. An example of explicit teaching is that Jesus was crucified.
The idea that Jesus had 2 wills (divine & human) is an implicit teaching.

Rev. 5:8 shows direct intercession from the saints in Heaven for the saints on earth. Since the Bible never forbids asking those in Heaven to pray FOR us - we can conclude that we CAN ask them for their prayerful intercession, per Rev. 5:8.

If I told you that I dont believe in Sola Scripture, it would not help your position.
You have to prove praying to the dead is in the new testament because you already claimed it was!!!!
Now you changed your argument because you knew it wasn't. So now your new position is I dont have to.

Proving you knew all along this doctrine is not in the new testament.

Very dishonest but expected.

You absolutely believe in Sola Scriptura.

If you didn’t – you wouldn’t be demanding Scriptural proof for everything, Einstein. You would also consider Sacred Tradition.
Your statements above in RED are PROOF that you are a Sola Scripturist . . .

Ummmm, talk about being dishonest . . .

 

[amigo de christo]

Beware the swiss cheese and pretzel doctrine of both THE RCC and a massive amount within the protestant realm .
Many have twisted doctrine unto their own destruction and they doctrine has more holes than swiss cheese .

 

[GodsGrace]

Given your penchant for being dishonest – I take that as a complement . . .

It doesn’t say that. It implies it.

Biblical teaching comes to us in TWO ways:
Explicit teaching and Implicit teaching.
For example - the idea that Jesus had 2 wills (divine & human) is not explicitly taught - but is a basic Christian belief.

Thanks for the lesson...it's good to post stuff like this for those reading along.

For me....I don't do implicit...
Was the resurrection implicit or do we have some kind of documentation we can depend on as Christians??
Yes.
We do.

And,,,,Jesus having 2 wills is all over the NT.
Praying to saints is NOT.

Rev. 5:8 shows direct intercession from the saints in Heaven for the saints on earth. Since the Bible never forbids asking those in Heaven to pray FOR us - we can conclude that we CAN ask them for their prayerful intercession, per Rev. 5:8.

The bible never forbids taking cocaine.
So it's OK?

We should not be concluding ANYTHING Bread.
A friend of mine that likes to read up on the saints was told by the new Deacon that she should concentrate on the bible.
Interesting, no?
But he does agree with you of course.

Now why would those in heaven have to pray FOR US if we could pray to God ourselves?

Could you please post an ECF that taught that we are to pray to the dead - for whatever reason.
I can't find anything....maybe you could.

It doesn’t take omniscience or omnipresence to hear the prayers of a FINITE number of people. And their ability to hear multiple prayers at the same time is due to the power of GOD – not the saint in Heaven. Everything that a person is capable of – on earth or in Heaven - is by the power of God. Hoe do you thing Moses and Elijah appeared at the Transfiguration. By their own power?

Don’t forget that with God - NOTHING is impossible (Luke 1:37).

Yes Bread...but you see Moses and Elijah DID APPEAR at the transfiguration.
Bad analogy.

So you say the saints can hear the prayers of a finite number of people...like maybe their families?
How about all those prayers to St. Anthony, Santa Chiara, San Padre Pio (He's a biggie), I think you understand.

But, yeah, if you want to be Catholic, you MUST believe as they do.
Or do you??

 

[GodsGrace]

How do MANY of these threads become anti-Catholic tirades?

Nope. just exposin' LIES . . .

Bread, it's people like you that give Catholicism a bad name.
This really saddens me.

You should be discussing why you believe the doctrine that you do...
NOT putting persons down, calling them name and making them hate the original church that gave us Christianity.
It's embarrassing.

 

[amigo de christo]

Bread, it's people like you that give Catholicism a bad name.
This really saddens me.

You should be discussing why you believe the doctrine that you do...
NOT putting persons down, calling them name and making them hate the original church that gave us Christianity.
It's embarrassing.

Who had torah . who held the law
and who faithfully recopied it through the years . THE JEWISH leaders and scribes .
BUT GOD WAS NOT WELL PLEASED WITH THEM .
NOW something a long long long time ago WENT DEAD WRONG in that place .
The thing is GOD ALLOWED the scrips to continue
Just as HE allowed men to recopy torah .
This was for the people . THE PROBLEM IS TOO MANY TRUST IN THE SYSTEM .

 

[Titus]

I didn’t say that they said anything about prayers to the dead.

First you tried to prove with the new testament that prayers for the dead is Biblical.
Now you are changing your story and claiming you did not claim prayers for the dead is in the new testament.
Very dishonest.

Rev. 5:8 shows direct intercession from the saints in Heaven for the saints on earth. Since the Bible never forbids asking those in Heaven to pray FOR us - we can conclude that we CAN ask them for their prayerful intercession, per Rev. 5:8.

This is foolishness.

Listen very carefully to BreadofLife's logic

Since the Bible does not say anything against praying to the dead, therefore it is approved of by God.

Basically all this is, is "well you didn't say not to" argument.

Since God did not say not to pray to the dead it is ok to pray to the dead.

Since the Bible never forbids asking those in Heaven to pray FOR us - we can conclude that we CAN

The Bible never says you cannot pray to your dead grandma so its allowed.

Listen: I tell you to go buy bread at the store with my credit card.

You come back with the bread and new shoes a new watch a new jacket and a haircut.

Breadoflife, why did you come back with all these things?
I told you to buy bread.

Your logic: "well you did not say not to so that makes it allowed"

No one who understands logic reasons this way.

But apparently Catholics do and no wonder their are so many additions in their doctrines to the Bible.

The Bible does not say you cannot smoke so I guess it is allowed.

On and on it never ends with this foolish reasoning.

Revelation 5:8,
Bread of life says the fictious four living creatures and twenty four elders are evidence that christians pray for us in hades and therefore we can pray to them.

This is total desperation to use verses out of revelation which is pure symbolism not actual saints that have died.

- and when he had taken the book the four beasts and twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours which are the prayers of saints

Can I also pray to the four beasts in heaven? Can they also pray for me Breadoflife?

Fictitious creatures, its symbolism.
Notice that the prayers of the saints are not dead saints.

Psalm 141:2,
- let my(living) prayer be set forth before thee as incense and the lifting up of my hands(dead saints dont have hands) as the evening sacrifice

All you are going to find in the Scriptures, is living people praying to God.
Nowhere will you find dead people praying to the living nor the living praying to the dead.

You find it in the apocrypha.
But BreadofLife claims it's in the Bible.
Now he claims it is not.

The twenty four elders are also fictitious. Revelation is using symbolism.
There are no dead saints in this verse as BreadofLife wants to try and decieve me into believing.

The fact that you are demanding Scriptural proof for all of my claims shows that you absolutely adhere to the false man-made doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Do your hoomework

Above He is denying that He used the Bible as evidence for praying to the dead.
Below you will see he at first tried to use Scripture but failed.
Then changed his argument claiming he never claimed the Bible does teach praying to the dead.

Hello, can you produce Bible verses that command us to pray to the dead in the new testament?
Thank you

Here below BreadofLife tries to use the Bible to prove praying to the dead.

1 Cor. 12 says that, as the Body of Christ, we ALL need each other. EVERY part needs ALL the other parts (1 Cor. 12:20-21). And, if we’re ALL parts of the Body – James 5:16 says that we should ALL pray for each other. Therefore, asking a member of the Body in Heaven to pray for me is NO different than asking a loved one here on earth to pray for me.

Breadoflife uses any tactics he can to win a debate.
Now listen as he attacks my intelligence with Ad hominem.

 

[GodsGrace]

Who had torah . who held the law
and who faithfully recopied it through the years . THE JEWISH leaders and scribes .
BUT GOD WAS NOT WELL PLEASED WITH THEM .
NOW something a long long long time ago WENT DEAD WRONG in that place .
The thing is GOD ALLOWED the scrips to continue
Just as HE allowed men to recopy torah .
This was for the people . THE PROBLEM IS TOO MANY TRUST IN THE SYSTEM .

What system?

 

[GodsGrace]

First you tried to prove with the new testament that prayers for the dead is Biblical.
Now you are changing your story and claiming you did not claim prayers for the dead is in the new testament.
Very dishonest.


This is foolishness.

Listen very carefully to BreadofLife's logic

Since the Bible does not say anything against praying to the dead, therefore it is approved of by God.

Basically all this is, is "well you didn't say not to" argument.

Since God did not say not to pray to the dead it is ok to pray to the dead.


The Bible never says you cannot pray to your dead grandma so its allowed.

Listen: I tell you to go buy bread at the store with my credit card.

You come back with the bread and new shoes a new watch a new jacket and a haircut.

Breadoflife, why did you come back with all these things?
I told you to buy bread.

Your logic: "well you did not say not to so that makes it allowed"

No one who understands logic reasons this way.

But apparently Catholics do and no wonder their are so many additions in their doctrines to the Bible.

The Bible does not say you cannot smoke so I guess it is allowed.

On and on it never ends with this foolish reasoning.

Revelation 5:8,
Bread of life says the fictious four living creatures and twenty four elders are evidence that christians pray for us in hades and therefore we can pray to them.

This is total desperation to use verses out of revelation which is pure symbolism not actual saints that have died.

- and when he had taken the book the four beasts and twenty four elders fell down before the Lamb having every one of them harps and golden vials full of odours which are the prayers of saints

Can I also pray to the four beasts in heaven? Can they also pray for me Breadoflife?

Fictitious creatures, its symbolism.
Notice that the prayers of the saints are not dead saints.

Psalm 141:2,
- let my(living) prayer be set forth before thee as incense and the lifting up of my hands(dead saints dont have hands) as the evening sacrifice

All you are going to find in the Scriptures, is living people praying to God.
Nowhere will you find dead people praying to the living nor the living praying to the dead.

You find it in the apocrypha.
But BreadofLife claims it's in the Bible.
Now he claims it is not.

The twenty four elders are also fictitious. Revelation is using symbolism.
There are no dead saints in this verse as BreadofLife wants to try and decieve me into believing.



Above He is denying that He used the Bible as evidence for praying to the dead.
Below you will see he at first tried to use Scripture but failed.
Then changed his argument claiming he never claimed the Bible does teach praying to the dead.

Here below BreadofLife tries to use the Bible to prove praying to the dead.

Breadoflife uses any tactics he can to win a debate.
Now listen as he attacks my intelligence with Ad hominem.

Bread attacks everyone...don't go feeling too special !
LOL

And I don't know much about eschatology, but I agree with the rest of what you've posted.

 

[amigo de christo]

What system?

The catholic system
The RCC has duped souls for hundreds upon hundreds of years .
That was said out of GREAT LOVE for i desire only good for souls and that none perish .
Beware the protestant realm too . Few to NONE even truly teach truth any more .
THEM CHURCHES ARE ALL UNDER the influence of a love that came of the world , cloaked and claimed IS OF GOD
but it is of satan himself to decieve man . That probably sounds like its just too impossible to beleive .
BELEIVE IT . INTERFAITH ALL INCLUSIVE WILL TAKE THEM ALL TO PERDITION on the day of the LORD .

 

[GodsGrace]

The catholic system
The RCC has duped souls for hundreds upon hundreds of years .
That was said out of GREAT LOVE for i desire only good for souls and that none perish .
Beware the protestant realm too . Few to NONE even truly teach truth any more .
THEM CHURCHES ARE ALL UNDER the influence of a love that came of the world , cloaked and claimed IS OF GOD
but it is of satan himself to decieve man . That probably sounds like its just too impossible to beleive .
BELEIVE IT . INTERFAITH ALL INCLUSIVE WILL TAKE THEM ALL TO PERDITION on the day of the LORD .

Well, as you know I agree to the above.
The CC started out just great.
But, alas, they embroiled themselves with the governments of those days and the power hungry always ruin everything.
So, yes, the Reformation was necessary....
But what we have is not good either.
Some on this forum think they're Christian but don't believe Jesus is God, or the Trinity or the hypostatic union....
This is not good either.
God will handle it.

 

[KUWN]

Okay - but you ARE a Sola Scripturist.
Prove to me - from the BIBLE - that everything er belive in MUST be found on the pages of Scipoture.

The Bible IS Authorittative - but it's NOT our ONLY Authority. Jesus gave full Authority to His Church to represent Him (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, Hogn 16:12-15, John 20:21-23).

2 Pt 1.3
His divine power has given us everything required for life and godliness through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

 

[GodsGrace]

2 Pt 1.3
His divine power has given us everything required for life and godliness through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

Big problem with your statement KUWN.
Everyone on the forum believes something different about Jesus.
Whom shall we believe?

How does 2 Peter 1:3 prove that everything we know has to come straight out of the bible?
How does the bible teach us to baptize?
I'm on another thread and most on there don't even know how to baptize!

 

[Titus]

Bread attacks everyone...don't go feeling too special !
LOL

And I don't know much about eschatology, but I agree with the rest of what you've posted.

I appreciate your honesty.

 

[amigo de christo]

Well, as you know I agree to the above.
The CC started out just great.
But, alas, they embroiled themselves with the governments of those days and the power hungry always ruin everything.
So, yes, the Reformation was necessary....
But what we have is not good either.
Some on this forum think they're Christian but don't believe Jesus is God, or the Trinity or the hypostatic union....
This is not good either.
God will handle it.

How does GOD operate through the body .
Correction good . hugging and not correcting bad .
Hugs are good , but hugs without truth and correction are very very bad and lead to the destruction
and not rather THE EDIFICATION of the church . Let us always remember that .
Seasoned men have a big responsibilty to help lead the church UP
and not rather as many BE co helpers to its destruction .
So warning is good .
Beholding both the severity and goodness of GOD . IS GOOD .
But when a message begins to overlook or down play the severity of GOD , YA BETTER WATCH OUT
cause even its goodness is bad and wont be the truth .
I have , for years and for years witnessed whole churches GO DOWN FAST once the methods of men
who used ricky the warren and his special book and books . That was NO NEW WAY to evangelize
IT was but a means to eventually REMOVE THE PREACHING OF THE ONE TRUE GOSPEL . NOW they knew darn
well what they was doing . Men had their orders and the order was WE GOTS TO CHANGE them churches from within
TO mold them into a religoin that ALL RELIGOINS will be able to WORK TOGETHER AS ONE under .
SO they came up with a version of the golden rule . But beleive you me their version
HAS NO LOVE FOR GOD and thus the love it has for man IS NO LOVE at all . IT WILL LEAVE THEM BLIND , IN SIN
and UNBELIEF and just finding common ground . MAN it came of satan . and HE KNOWS darn well
how to make something seem so darn loving , so darn good , WHEN its truly meant FOR THE DESTRUCTION
and death of humanity . SHEEP DONT HEED HIS VOICE or the voice of his hirelings .

 

[KUWN]

Big problem with your statement KUWN.
Everyone on the forum believes something different about Jesus.
Whom shall we believe?

How does 2 Peter 1:3 prove that everything we know has to come straight out of the bible?
How does the bible teach us to baptize?
I'm on another thread and most on there don't even know how to baptize!

Whom do we believe? The one who is in agreement with Scripture.

How does the bible teach us to baptize? John the Baptist demonstrated that for us.

I'm on another thread and most on there don't even know how to baptize! If so, they are ignorant of scripture.

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm not excluding the Jews or even faithful gentiles that died during the old testament.

Good...

I simply was not discussing them.

Fair enough...

The new testament teaches that physical Israel, those of ethnic Hebrew origin. Are no longer Gods chosen people.

Ah well, physical Israel and God's Israel, regardless of timeframe, are two different things. There is some overlap, but... well, as Paul says in Romans 9, "not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel," and "not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring" (vv.6-7). So Israel always was and always will be God's chosen people, but the question, again, regardless of timeframe, is, who is... or, who does God's Israel consist of? What is your understanding of that?

All those saved under the new testament gospel of Jesus Christ are now referred to by Paul as spiritual Israel.

Everyone saved was always saved through faith in Jesus Christ. Hebrews 11 is very clear on this... And Paul is, too, in Romans 2:28-29, specifically, where he writes, "...no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God." This has always been the case, and always will be. Think of the physical Israel of the Old Testament as an object lesson of sorts. It was the "lesser" iteration of God's Israel, and the Israel of the New Testament is not different, but the "greater" Israel, the real thing, including both Jew and Gentile, all those in Christ.

Physical Israel = ethnic Jews of old testament
Spiritual Israel= All of mankind that are saved put in the Lords church by God. Both Jews and gentiles that believe in Jesus.

Right, except that I would say that Spiritual Israel includes "physical Israel," ethnic Jews of the Old Testament, who were in Christ.

Gods people today are not ethnic jews. They are anyone who believes and obeys Jesus. A spiritual house, spiritual Israel

Um, well, right, except there are ethnic Jews who have come to Christ, right? And there were in Old Testament times, too. Right, this is spiritual Israel, God's Israel, the household of God.

When Jesus died on the cross His blood went backwards and forwards.

Right.

It cleansed all the sins of those who died faithful to God before Gods crucifixion on the cross.

Absolutely.

It is Christ's sacrifice that redeemed the Jews of the old covenant and all those to come until the return of Jesus.

Right.

So when Jesus died and shed His blood He purchased all the old testament saints and they are now in the new covenant, the new testament church.

I mean, we're all one in Christ Jesus. That's all that needs to be said. But sure.

So... what exactly is it, then, that you hate about Reformed theology? <smile> Limited atonement, maybe... Well, maybe someday you'll respond to what I said above in Posts #506 and #507. I mean... you don't... have to... of course... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I think we could agree.

Maybe... <smile>

How would it be unlimited in scope? Why? What would that particular atonement theory look like? What would that particular atonement theory look like?

I've been very clear about this. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all, and in that sense is for the whole world, for everyone... unlimited. However, we know that not everyone will be saved, Christ's atonement is only applied to and effectual for those who have been given to Christ by the Father, the elect. In that sense, Christ's atonement is indeed limited... to the elect of God. As Christ Himself said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (John 6:37), and "No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44), and "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:27-30).

In the bible TO CALL means to be invited to.

A call in Scripture can be in one of two senses, and is... either/or, of course... in different places in Scripture:

• There is a general call of the Gospel, and this is issued to all. Yes, this is an invitation
• But there is the inward call to salvation in Christ, issued individually and inwardly by the Spirit only to God's elect. This calling of God always results in the conversion of the heart to Christ. Yes, we are called out of darkness and into His marvelous light. In receiving this call, we are then born again, and no longer children of the devil (of Satan) but children of God (of God).

Ohhhh... I sure here we go with free will again, as if I'm saying there is no such thing...

Also, you seem to be ignoring Joel 2:28 I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND.

Not at all. Here we talk about God's grace, which in one sense is common and given to all. Everyone, whether they know it or not, acknowledge it or not, is given grace by God in varying measure... starting with life itself. But not everyone will receive God's salvific grace, what we sometimes call particular grace, which is given by God to His elect only.

Joel 2:32 WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE DELIVERED. We have to read the entire passage.

Sure we do. Absolutely. And in concert with other passages. The 'whoever' here is exactly what Jesus is referring to in John 3:16, and Paul in Romans 10:9. And this 'whoever' depends first on receiving God's call. It is absolutely true that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved/delivered. But only those who are called by God will call on the name of the Lord... our calling on the name of the Lord is the direct result of our having received, by the Spirit, the salvific call of God and having been born again of the Spirit.

The reformed use the OT because of all the different types of language there: Two would be poetic writing and narrative writing. Easy to find almost anything there.

Ah, so it's irrelevant, and has nothing to do with the New Testament, and we should completely ignore it. I see... <smile> Goodness gracious. So this is not really a Reformed "issue," GodsGrace, but rather, really, a covenantal thing as opposed to a dispensational thing, which has... well, far-reaching ramifications. Scripture is covenantal and intimately connected, rather than dispensational and disjointed.

Sticking to only the NT is difficult for the reformed. Want to try it?

LOL! Jesus and all the New Testament writers quote the Old Testament very, very, extensively. Come on, GodsGrace, you know that.

Re Romans 9: Corporate salvation.

Individual. Paul starts if off by referring to Jacob, whom He loved, and Esau, whom He hated. Then he goes on to say that being one of His elect depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. Just a rhetorical question here: If Paul is speaking of corporate salvation, then is he referring to corporate will here? Of course not. And Paul goes on to say ~ quoting Moses from Exodus 33, who there quotes God ~ God has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills. This is irrefutably a giving of mercy to certain individuals, and a hardening of certain individuals. Then Paul drives it home by saying, "Has the Potter no right over the clay..." (an Old Testament reference) "... to make out of the same lump..." (all) "...one vessel..." (one person) "...for honorable use and another..." (another person) "...for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels..." (people/individuals) "...of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels..." (people/individuals) "...of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called..." (clearly Paul is inferring here that there are some who are not called) "...not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles" (regardless of ethnicity).

Paul's listener's knew what Paul meant.

Ummm... some probably didn't.

as does every denomination EXCEPT the reformed .... they have their very own belief system on Romans 9, 10 and 11.

Again, not a reformed issue, GodsGrace. Scripture is covenantal, not dispensational. That's the issue.

Good... except for the predestination.

LOL! Yeah, no such thing as God's predestination ~ "for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of his glorious grace..." (Paul, Ephesians 1:5). Oh wait, yes there is... <smile> And that's even the New Testament, not the Old, which we are to ignore... <smile>

Do you believe we predestine ourselves? If so, isn't that a post-destination? God post-destines those who choose Him? Even though we read there in Ephesians 1 that "God ...has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world..." ~ "...though (we) were not born yet and before any of us had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls," drawing from Paul's words in Romans 9:11 ~ "...that we should be holy and blameless before him"...? Come on GodsGrace. You're a smart person. This is not hard to understand.

There is predestination in the NT,,,but not regarding individual salvation.

Yes it is. See above. If you want to call it corporate, it is corporate in the sense that this is for all God's Israel, every single member of His household, His elect, the household of God.

If it meant this,,,the entire NT would make no sense at all.

Goodness gracious.

Why even write it if God is going to choose?

So... again, rhetorical questions: We should give ourselves glory? We should glorify ourselves? Even praise and (GASP) worship ourselves for our salvation?

Oh no Pinseeker. God knows everything.

LOL! I just said that; thanks for agreeing. Yes, He knows everything and everyone, and He knows beforehand everything that everyone will do. But again, the irrefutable insinuation of "those He foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is that there are some that He did not foreknow. So this foreknowledge that Paul is speaking of is not in reference to everyone but only to a select group less than the whole of humanity, and because of that, it cannot be a mere cognitive knowledge beforehand. It cannot.

we're not discussing Adam KNOWING his wife.

Interesting that you bring this up, as I didn't mention it, but great; yes, the translated-to-English 'foreknew' is from the Greek root of 'know,' and that is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word used in Genesis 4:1. Yes, Adam knew his wife Eve, and she conceived a son, and it is absolutely analogous to God's knowing His elect ~ foreknowing, in reference to what Paul says in Romans 8:29.

God FOREKNEW who would come to accept Him.

No, He fore-loved them. And that fits perfectly with what John says in 1 John 4:19, that "(w)e love because He first loved us."

Let's stick to the discussion please.

<chuckles>

Paul did NOT mean foreknow in this way...

He did.

Continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

This is not orthodox Christian knowledge...

It is. But dispensationalism is pervasive, especially in the West.

if you care to post something I'll take a look. You might want to post something from the Institutes or one of the Confessions...I've never seen anywhere what you're stating. (this doesn't mean it doesn't exist).

Ohhhh, it exists. Here's the Westminster Confession of Faith. There are 33 chapters but it's really not that long a read. Relevant to what we're discussing, you might focus on Chapter 3 (Of God's Eternal Decree), chapter 9 (Of Free Will), Chapter 10 (Of Effectual Calling). Yeah, published in 1647; it's just a magnificent document. Not Scripture, of course, but saturated with Scripture references.

I think I've covered everything.

Ah yes. <chuckle>

If you want to discuss Romans 9 I'm willing.

See above.

It's your ONLY hope...

I don't even know what this means... other than maybe you're saying there's nothing anywhere else in the Bible that says these things, but that's not true at all. Paul makes several Old Testament references in Romans as a whole and chapter 9 in particular, and he talks about the same things in different ways in his other epistles, and Peter, who also references the Old Testament extensively, says some of the same things, albeit in different ways.

and it doesn't even refer to individual salvation but to the nation of Israel.

Well, individuals who make up God's Israel. This whole discourse is not just Romans 9, but really Romans 9-11, where Paul finally says, "Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened... a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel..." ~ every single member of God's Israel, His household ~ "...will be saved..."

Perhaps we could discuss Pharaoh too?

You mean the Pharoah that God hardened? <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

How does GOD operate through the body .
Correction good . hugging and not correcting bad .
Hugs are good , but hugs without truth and correction are very very bad and lead to the destruction
and not rather THE EDIFICATION of the church . Let us always remember that .
Seasoned men have a big responsibilty to help lead the church UP
and not rather as many BE co helpers to its destruction .
So warning is good .
Beholding both the severity and goodness of GOD . IS GOOD .
But when a message begins to overlook or down play the severity of GOD , YA BETTER WATCH OUT
cause even its goodness is bad and wont be the truth .
I have , for years and for years witnessed whole churches GO DOWN FAST once the methods of men
who used ricky the warren and his special book and books . That was NO NEW WAY to evangelize
IT was but a means to eventually REMOVE THE PREACHING OF THE ONE TRUE GOSPEL . NOW they knew darn
well what they was doing . Men had their orders and the order was WE GOTS TO CHANGE them churches from within
TO mold them into a religoin that ALL RELIGOINS will be able to WORK TOGETHER AS ONE under .
SO they came up with a version of the golden rule . But beleive you me their version
HAS NO LOVE FOR GOD and thus the love it has for man IS NO LOVE at all . IT WILL LEAVE THEM BLIND , IN SIN
and UNBELIEF and just finding common ground . MAN it came of satan . and HE KNOWS darn well
how to make something seem so darn loving , so darn good , WHEN its truly meant FOR THE DESTRUCTION
and death of humanity . SHEEP DONT HEED HIS VOICE or the voice of his hirelings .

I can't argue with you Christo.
The CC has many good things about it....
But it is also afraid to preach in the method you've stated above.
Does it make a difference?
I'm not sure and I'll discuss with you if you wish to, but I'll tell you this...
in all the time I've been a born again Christian and had to leave the CC, I have NEVER seen
ANY denomination change...MAYBE the Nazarene church but I'm not 100% sure.
Catholics are right about the sacraments...they're all found in scripture....but they should not be ADDED to salvation but
only be a PART of it. It's true that grace comes ALSO by participating in sacraments....everything we do for God will give us blessings and will give us ever the more of His grace; but the CC makes it sound like sacraments are the only way to get grace.

Anyway, that's it for now.

 

[GodsGrace]

Whom do we believe? The one who is in agreement with Scripture.

KUWN Why don't you learn how to do what I'm doing right now so your replies are easier for YOU and easier for the reader?

So if we have different opinions HOW do I know who is right?
Is OSAS right or is it wrong?

Is there a sure-fire way to know?

How does the bible teach us to baptize? John the Baptist demonstrated that for us.

John the baptist baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?

If not...

do we trust John the Baptist or Jesus? Matthew 28:19

I'm on another thread and most on there don't even know how to baptize! If so, they are ignorant of scripture.

Hmmm. So scripture explains EVERYTHING VERY CLEARLY?

This is great!
It means that ALL CHRISTIANS should be believing EXACTLY the same doctrine!

Do YOU think all Christians believe exactly the same doctrine?