Hypostatic Dilemma - Do you have one?

[Ronald Nolette]

He did not, but he did say he wasn't either. What became of him when he died on the cross?

Yes He did, its all in there in the gospels.

He went to Abrahams Bosom when He died

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What this means is that if you don't know the Son of Man, it must also imply that you don't truly understand the Son of God. However, what you do know doesn't align with the truth, so I'd say your understanding is diminished.

Now, if you can explain the Messiah as the Son of Man, as Jesus himself used the term and understood his purpose, then we can have a meaningful discussion. But as long as you hold onto this misunderstanding, we really have no common ground.

F2F

Well I have had a relationship with Jesus Christ and my Father in heaven for over 50 years now.

ands all your implications that I don't do not disprove that. I understand it. As written. How do you understand it?

 

[MonoBiblical]

Yes He did, its all in there in the gospels.

He went to Abrahams Bosom when He died

He was given angelic powers.

 

[Lambano]

I think...

My time would be better spent focusing on how I relate to Jesus Christ and His Father as distinct Persons, rather than trying to puff up my already over-inflated ego by pretending I understand the nature of God when I obviously don't and can't.

 

[Lambano]

 

[Lambano]

What I think I do understand is that the claims for Christ, both in the Bible and in the understanding of the early Church, include attributes normally reserved for God (such as existence prior to creation and co-credit for Creation) that have to be reconciled with the non-negotiable principles of Jewish monotheism. It took us a couple of centuries, but we had to develop this neo-Platonic theology to do it. It had to be done.

"Cognitive dissonance is a mental discomfort that arises when a person holds two or more contradictory beliefs, values, or attitudes. This can lead to a state of tension and anxiety, as the person tries to reconcile their conflicting thoughts."

And then we made belief in this borderline incoherent theology normative for inclusion in the body of Christ.

 

[Johann]

What I think I do understand is that the claims for Christ, both in the Bible and in the understanding of the early Church, include attributes normally reserved for God (such as existence prior to creation and co-credit for Creation) that have to be reconciled with the non-negotiable principles of Jewish monotheism. It took us a couple of centuries, but we had to develop this neo-Platonic theology to do it. It had to be done.



And then we made belief in this borderline incoherent theology normative for inclusion in the body of Christ.

Be it as it may @Lambano-


Your observation about reconciling the claims of Christ with Jewish monotheism touches on a central challenge faced by the early Church. The New Testament indeed attributes qualities to Jesus-such as preexistence (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16-17), co-creation (1 Corinthians 8:6), and divine identity (Philippians 2:6; Hebrews 1:3)-that belong to God alone, forcing early Christians to grapple with how Jesus fits within the framework of strict monotheism. However, this process wasn’t about creating a “borderline incoherent theology,” but about articulating the reality revealed in Scripture.

Jewish Monotheism and Divine Plurality
Jewish monotheism, as rooted in the Shema (Deuteronomy 6:4), does not deny complexity within God's being. The Old Testament hints at divine plurality through passages like Genesis 1:26 ("Let us make man in our image"), the "Angel of the Lord" (e.g., Exodus 3:2-6), and the Messianic figure of Daniel 7:13-14, who receives worship and authority. Early Christians interpreted these as anticipatory of the fuller revelation of God's triune nature.

Biblical Basis for the Trinity
The New Testament presents the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as distinct yet united in essence and work:

The Father sends the Son (John 3:16), but the Son is fully God (John 1:1; 20:28).

The Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (John 15:26) and shares in divine attributes like omniscience and omnipresence (1 Corinthians 2:10-11; Psalm 139:7-8).

These biblical truths required the Church to articulate a framework that upheld both the unity of God and the divinity of the Son and Spirit, leading to the development of Trinitarian doctrine.

Philosophical Language and Theological Coherence
The use of neo-Platonic or philosophical terms (e.g., homoousios, "of the same essence") was not about imposing foreign concepts on Scripture but about preserving its teachings against heresies. The doctrine of the Trinity is not incoherent but paradoxica-God's nature transcends human comprehension, yet Scripture reveals truths that can be systematized coherently without contradiction.

Belief and Inclusion
The early Church did not arbitrarily make belief in the Trinity normative for inclusion. This belief emerged naturally from the recognition of Jesus' divine identity and His role in salvation. To worship Christ as God while affirming monotheism demanded a clear doctrinal expression. The Nicene Creed (325 AD) was a response to preserve the faith against theological errors (e.g., Arianism) that undermined the biblical portrayal of Jesus and salvation itself.

Reconciling Apparent Tensions
Cognitive dissonance may arise when attempting to grasp divine mysteries, but tension does not equate to incoherence. God's nature, as infinite and beyond human comprehension, necessarily challenges finite understanding. The early Church's theological development was not about forcing contradictions into coherence but about faithfully articulating the biblical revelation of the triune God.

In sum, the doctrine of the Trinity was not an artificial construct but a necessary articulation of what Scripture reveals about the one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. While it is a profound mystery, it remains coherent within the biblical witness and central to Christian faith.

J.

 

[Johann]

Who Is Jesus Christ?

Background
Jesus has been acclaimed as the greatest religious leader who ever lived, as being the most influential person to have lived on our planet, and as being unique to the degree that no one can be compared to Him.

But considering Jesus Christ merely on the basis of an exemplary life and His superior moral teaching will not remove the stumbling blocks to Christianity raised by an unbelieving world. The real test of what one thinks of Him must revolve around who He claimed to be and what He accomplished during His brief mission to our planet. Our conclusion must be that there is no Christianity without Christ; all centers in Him.

The predominant theme of the Scriptures is the Person and the work of Jesus Christ. He is God. He became a human being, died by crucifixion, and was buried. He rose again from the dead. He is the only, all-sufficient Savior of the world. He will come again to this earth. Removing this from the Scriptures robs them of all coherent meaning and continuity.

Jesus Christ is God:
Deity is the only explanation for all that He was and all that He did.

(1) He was pre-existent with the Father. “The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made” (John 1:2, 3, KJV). (Also see John 17:5 and Colossians 1:17.)

(2) He is the Son of God.

His enemies admitted: “He...said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God” (John 5:18, KJV).
Peter confessed: “And we believe and are sure that thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God” (John 6:69, KJV).
Jesus affirmed: “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30, NIV).
(3) He was sinless, as only God can be.

Jesus challenged His enemies: “Which of you convinceth me of sin?” (John 8:46, KJV).
Peter testified: “...Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth” (1 Peter 2:21, 22, KJV).
Paul stated: “For he...made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him” (2 Corinthians 5:21, KJV).
(4) He forgives sin, as only God can.

The Scribes said: “Who can forgive sins but God only?” (Mark 2:7, KJV).
Jesus said: “But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins...” (Matthew 9:6, KJV). (Also see John 8:11.)
Peter wrote: “Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed” (1 Peter 2:24, KJV).
(5) He performed miraculous works.

He healed the sick: Matthew 8:9-13; Luke 4:31-44; 5:12-15; John 4:43 to 5:16; and other references.
He fed the hungry: John 6; Mark 8, etc.
He raised the dead: Luke 7:11-18; John 11:1-46.
Jesus Christ Became Man:
“And the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us...full of grace and truth” (John 1:14, KJV). (See also Philippians 2:7, 8.)

(1) His miraculous birth was prophesied 800 years before His coming: “Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Emmanuel” (Isaiah 7:14, KJV).

(2) The prophecy was fulfilled to the letter. “Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favor with God. And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus” (Luke 1:30, 31, KJV).

(3) Jesus demonstrated human characteristics: He became tired (John 4:6). He thirsted (John 19:28), He ate food (Luke 24:40-43), He showed feelings (Mark 6:34), He wept (John 11:35), He knew temptation (Hebrews 4:15), and He died (John 19:30).

Jesus Christ Accomplished the Works of His Father:
(1) He died on the Cross. This is the fundamental theme of the Gospel.

The fact of His death—One-fourth of the Gospels are dedicated to His Passion and Resurrection. (a) For this purpose He came into the world (John 12:27). (b) His death was prophesied hundreds of years before He came (Isaiah 53:3-8).
The meaning of His death. (a) It was a ransom for sin (Matthew 20:28; Romans 3:24; 1 Peter 1:18). (b) It was to pay the penalty for sin (Romans 3:24; 1 John 2:2; 4:10). Man is the object of God’s wrath because of rebellion and sin, but God took the initiative in satisfying His wrath by sending His own Son to Calvary. (c) It is a reconciliation. The enmity between us and God has ended (Romans 5:10), and we are restored to God (2 Corinthians 5:18, 19). (d) It is a substitution: He died in our place (1 Peter 3:18; 2 Corinthians 5:21). (e) In summary, the matter of sin has been completely dealt with (1 Peter 2:24; Hebrews 9:26; Hebrews 10:12).
(2) He was resurrected from the dead: This is unique and fundamental to Christianity.

The reality of the Resurrection (John 20:1-10; 1 Corinthians 15:4).
The credibility of the Resurrection: (a) Jesus predicted it: Matthew 13:39-41; Luke 24:1-7. (b) The tomb was empty: John 20:11-13. (c) Many witnesses saw Him alive: the women (Luke 23:55, 56); Mary Magdalene (John 20:1, 2, 11-18); Peter and the other disciples (John 20:3-9, 19, 20, 24-31; 21:1-14).
The Results of His Work:
(1) He ascended to His Father (Luke 24:49-53; Acts 1:6-11).

(2) He is our eternal Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 8:6; 1 John 2:1.

(3) He is our Savior: “Thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins” (Matthew 1:21, KJV). “Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Savior, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins” (Acts 5:31, KJV).

He is the only Savior. “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved” (Acts 4:12, NIV).
He is a complete Savior. “Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them” (Hebrews 7:25, KJV).
He is a personal Savior. “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness: and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation” (Romans 10:9, 10, KJV).
The Consummation of His Work:
(1) He shall return again to this earth (Acts 1:11; Hebrews 10:37; John 14:3).

(2) Believers in Christ shall be bodily resurrected to begin a new, undying life (1 Thessalonians 4:17-18; 1 Corinthians 15:51-58).

(3) He will reign as King of kings and Lord of lords over His new creation (2 Peter 3:10-13; Revelation 22:3-5).

Who Is Jesus Christ? | Bible.org

BackgroundJesus has been acclaimed as the greatest religious leader who ever lived, as being the most influential person to have lived on our planet, and as being unique to the degree that no one can be compared to Him.But considering Jesus Christ merely on the basis of an exemplary life and His...

bible.org

J.

 

[Lambano]

However, this process wasn’t about creating a “borderline incoherent theology,” but about articulating the reality revealed in Scripture.

What I have said is that the process was about reconciling contradictory claims within scripture itself and with the beliefs and practice of the early Church. The end result is a theology that utilized concepts from the natural philosophy of the time and is really not understood by most laypersons. Thus, these internet discussions inevitably degenerate into a goat rodeo of angry silliness. Should I judge the process by the product it produced?

From what I see, most Christians who would insist that belief in the Trinity is normative to be considered a Christian do not fully appreciate the real conflicts inherent in postulating an entity simultaneously having a fully human and a fully divine nature (or really understand what a divine nature really is), nor do they fully appreciate the problem of relating ("personhood" implies relationship) to three distinct Persons as "God". As a result, they effectively choose to prefer one of Christ's natures over the other, or conflate the Person of the Father with the Person of the Son and treating them as interchangeably one and the same Person. Which they're not.

If this gets me back on your Ignore list, it's regrettable, but so be it.

 

[Scott Downey]

What I have said is that the process was about reconciling contradictory claims within scripture itself and with the beliefs and practice of the early Church. The end result is a theology that utilized concepts from the natural philosophy of the time and is really not understood by most laypersons. Thus, these internet discussions inevitably degenerate into a goat rodeo of angry silliness. Should I judge the process by the product it produced?

From what I see, most Christians who would insist that belief in the Trinity is normative to be considered a Christian do not fully appreciate the real conflicts inherent in postulating an entity simultaneously having a fully human and a fully divine nature (or really understand what a divine nature really is), nor do they fully appreciate the problem of relating ("personhood" implies relationship) to three distinct Persons as "God". As a result, they effectively choose to prefer one of Christ's natures over the other, or conflate the Person of the Father with the Person of the Son and treating them as interchangeably one and the same Person. Which they're not.

If this gets me back on your Ignore list, it's regrettable, but so be it.

Christ has his own will, so distinctly separate. He said His will was to do the Father's will.
After He was resurrected, the Father gave all authority in heaven and earth to the Son, His Christ, so then His will is done, which is also the Father's will.
It's all intertwined into the family of God, so they are all of one.

John 4:34
Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.

John 5:30
I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Non trinitarians come up short on the truth that Christ came down from heaven as they tend to deny HIS eternal preexistence with God in heaven. And they also have then an issue with Christ as Creator.
And they also refuse to worship Christ, even God commands and says let all worship the Son, which the apostles did do, and all the angels of God also.

 

[Johann]

What I have said is that the process was about reconciling contradictory claims within scripture itself and with the beliefs and practice of the early Church. The end result is a theology that utilized concepts from the natural philosophy of the time and is really not understood by most laypersons. Thus, these internet discussions inevitably degenerate into a goat rodeo of angry silliness. Should I judge the process by the product it produced?

From what I see, most Christians who would insist that belief in the Trinity is normative to be considered a Christian do not fully appreciate the real conflicts inherent in postulating an entity simultaneously having a fully human and a fully divine nature (or really understand what a divine nature really is), nor do they fully appreciate the problem of relating ("personhood" implies relationship) to three distinct Persons as "God". As a result, they effectively choose to prefer one of Christ's natures over the other, or conflate the Person of the Father with the Person of the Son and treating them as interchangeably one and the same Person. Which they're not.

If this gets me back on your Ignore list, it's regrettable, but so be it.

So you are a strict Jewish monotheist-correct?

J.

 

[Scott Downey]

They are God

John 14:18
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

 

[Johann]

They are God

John 14:18
I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

John 14:23
Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.

John 14:26
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

You are doing a sterling work here @Scott Downey-much appreciated-you and @Verily.

J.

 

[Johann]

Christ has his own will, so distinctly separate. He said His will was to do the Father's will.
After He was resurrected, the Father gave all authority in heaven and earth to the Son, His Christ, so then His will is done, which is also the Father's will.
It's all intertwined into the family of God, so they are all of one.

John 4:34
Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work.

John 5:30
I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

John 6:38
For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Non trinitarians come up short on the truth that Christ came down from heaven as they tend to deny HIS eternal preexistence with God in heaven. And they also have then an issue with Christ as Creator.
And they also refuse to worship Christ, even God commands and says let all worship the Son, which the apostles did do, and all the angels of God also.

Love this man!

Scripture and short, powerful commentary @Scott Downey!

Johann.

 

[Taken]

Hypostatic Dilemma - Do you have one?

What is a hypostatic dilemma?

 

[Lambano]

So you are a strict Jewish monotheist-correct?

J.

Not at all. I don't KNOW what Christ's nature really is. I don't think it's possible to truly know that. What I do know definitively is that the Biblical writers made claims for Christ that are in conflict with basic Jewish monotheism. But I don't think it can be stated that Christ was merely human, to go to one of the extremes.

 

[Lambano]

Hypostatic Dilemma - Do you have one?

What is a hypostatic dilemma?

I think there's one in the toolbox, behind the hammers.

 

[Lambano]

Hypostatic Dilemma - Do you have one?

What is a hypostatic dilemma?

I think there's one in the toolbox, underneath the hammers.

And that is a major problem for the average Christian layman. To know what the concept of Trinity actually says in the original terminology, one needs at least a working knowledge of neo-Platonic form-and-substance philosophy and a glossary of Greek terms such as ousia, morphe, and hypostasis.

With the internet, such information is readily available, but does the average layman even want to invest the time in it? Yet we consider belief in the Trinity a gatekeeper for defining who is and isn't a brother or sister in Christ?

 

[Johann]

And that is a major problem for the average Christian layman. To know what the concept of Trinity actually says in the original terminology, one needs at least a working knowledge of neo-Platonic form-and-substance philosophy and a glossary of Greek terms such as ousia, morphe, and hypostasis.

With the internet, such information is readily available, but does the average layman even want to invest the time in it? Yet we consider belief in the Trinity a gatekeeper for defining who is and isn't a brother or sister in Christ?

I don’t think so-@Lambano- what is imperative is a personal relationship with Christ Jesus, which is sealed with the Holy Spirit. This relationship is nurtured through daily prayer and the reading of Scripture.

Scripture teaches that salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ (John 14:6, Ephesians 2:8-9), not by a complete understanding of complex theological concepts. In fact, Jesus Himself said, "Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" (Matthew 19:14).

To claim that one must fully understand the doctrine of the Trinity before being saved is not supported by the Bible. The apostle Paul writes that "if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" (Romans 10:9). Salvation is based on genuine faith in Christ, not on having all theological details figured out.

It is important to remember that the Holy Spirit works in the hearts of believers, teaching and guiding them into all truth over time (John 14:26, 1 Corinthians 2:10).

Johann.

 

[face2face]

The Trinity and the hypostatic union are among the most difficult doctrines in systematic theology. The difficulties originate from several sources: The doctrines are distinctive of theology, they are a mystery beyond human comprehension, adequate methodology to study them is lacking, and no effective analogies have existed for comparison. Michael J. Bozack

"It (the Hypostatic Union) defies and transcends any human intellectual effort to explain or analyze it"

Charles Lee Feinberg, "the Hypostatic Union" Bibliotheca Sacra, ed. Lewis Sperry Chafer 92 (1935): 261.

Unlike the Trinitarians in this forum we find many Scholars who are at the least honest about this formulated conumdrum!

What happens when you push man-made thinking on the inspired text?

we find that the New Testament contains no systematic or formal setting forth of the doctrine of the two natures in the Person of Christ.

Charles Lee Feinberg,"the Hypostatic Union" Bibliotheca Sacra 92 (1935): 412.

If we were to look for an example of apostasy, this would surely be the clearest indication that Trinitarians view their doctrine as unquestionable dogma.

@Wrangler @APAK

I have a book in which a physicist attempts to find natural analogies from the earth to help define and explain the Hypostatic Union.

Talk about trying to find the end of a rainbow!

F2F