The Doctrines of Grace

[Titus]

converted believers are the elect, the elect are converted believers.

1John 2:2 says He died for the WHOLE World

You are telling me those not yet converted that become converts are the elect.

Well sure, that is true.

So if we apply the unconverted to becoming the elect then...

- He Himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins(elected) and not only our sins(elected) but the sins of ALL the world(to be elected)

So All of the world based on what you said is the elect.
That is the context.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

1John 2:2 says He died for the WHOLE World

You are telling me those not yet converted that become converts are the elect.

Well sure, that is true.

So if we apply the unconverted to becoming the elect then...

- He Himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins(elected) and not only our sins(elected) but the sins of ALL the world(to be elected)

So All of the world based on what you said is the elect.
That is the context.

Are you a Universalist?

Do you believe all humans will go to heaven and nobody in hell?

 

[Titus]

Are you a Universalist?

Do you believe all humans will go to heaven and nobody in hell?

No, I used what you told me to interpret the verse.
That was not my interpretation it was yours.

converted believers are the elect, the elect are converted believers

1John 2:2

By what you said then all the world in this passage are the elect to be.

 

[Titus]

Are you a Universalist?

Do you believe all humans will go to heaven and nobody in hell?

Sorry but I'm feeling puny. Need to rest. I'll respond later if you want to continue.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

No, I used what you told me to interpret the verse.
That was not my interpretation it was yours.


1John 2:2

By what you said then all the world in this passage are the elect to be.

Many definitions of "world" in the Bible.

The whole world but not all persons without exception.

And not for ours only but also for those (the sins) of the whole (holos) world (kosmos - humanity in general) - Not for ours only refers to John and the believers he is addressing.

 

[PinSeeker]

You just admitted that you could be going against your gods will.

You're conflating a couple of things, Titus. Regarding believers, yes, believers like me can go against God's will for my life in a multitude of ways, which is sin; He wants us all to be perfect as he is perfect. So, experientially speaking, yes, we can go against God's will. But even then, what He does in this case is, He continually, by the working of His Holy Spirit in us through faith, draws us back to Him in repentance and confession and asking forgiveness, which means... <smile>... God's will, even regarding sin itself, is that He allows sin, and in that sense, The same is true for unbelievers, who He gives over to their own selfish passions (Romans 1). His will is always done, without fail. And one day, there will be no more sin, as all things will be made new (Revelation 21:5). Again, ultimately speaking, God's will is always done, without fail, 100 percent of the time.

My belief that calvinist' never hold to their doctrine is 100% correct.

Not in the least, but you're welcome to your opinion.

Do aborted babies go to hell?

Possibly. There is nothing in the Bible that tells us one way or the other. Generally speaking, God, before the foundation of the world, elected some unto salvation... to be conformed to the image of His Son (Ephesians 1). My opinion on babies ~ in the womb or outside ~ in some proportion are either elect of God or not. So again... possibly.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

1John 2:2 says He died for the WHOLE World

Titus, I know this was/is a conversation between you and @ElectedbyHim, but if I may... <smile> There is a sense in which Jesus did die for the whole world, for sure, and 1 John 2:2 is not the only place where we see that. But there is also a sense, a different sense, in which He only died for the elect, those given to Him by the Father. Both are equally true. So... those two things have to be held together, and they can be; because they are in different senses, there is absolutely a resolution between the two. And the latter is the sense in which John Calvin's "limited atonement" is firmly couched.

You are telling me those not yet converted that become converts are the elect.

Well sure, that is true.

So if we apply the unconverted to becoming the elect then...

- He Himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins(elected) and not only our sins(elected) but the sins of ALL the world(to be elected)

Again, this is a conflation. See directly above. To put it very clearly, Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all, and in that sense is for the whole world, for everyone... unlimited. If God wanted to save everyone, He could certainly apply Christ's sacrifice to all and it would atone for the sins of all, without exception. However, we know that not everyone will be saved, Christ's atonement is only applied to and effectual for those who have been given to Christ by the Father, the elect. In that sense, Christ's atonement is indeed limited... to the elect of God. As Christ Himself said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (John 6:37), and "No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44), and "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:27-30).

Look at what Paul says in Romans 8. He says, in Romans 8:29-30, "those whom He foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.

The first thing to see there, irrefutably, is that there is no failure when it comes to God saving people. This is what we call the "golden chain" of salvation. God predestines, calls, justifies, and ultimately glorifies. His salvific act never fails..

Secondly, at the very beginning, it says "those He foreknew." We'll talk about this foreknowing in a moment, but the irrefutable insinuation of "those He foreknew" is that there are some that He did not foreknow. So those He foreknew are a group less than the whole, so not all of humanity. As for God's foreknowledge, here, to 'know' something sometimes means, in the Bible, just a cognitive knowledge, like to know who they are, or what they did, are doing, or will do. But in this case, this 'knowing' is far, far more than mere cognition, because in that sense, God foreknows everyone and everything. To 'know' someone in the Bible is also used in the sense of loving that person with an intimate, personal action, a distinguishing love, which even denotes choosing, as a father does his child (I love everybody in one sense, right? But my children, who are adults now, I love with an intimate, personal, even distinguishing love). It is in this sense that Paul writes of God foreknowing ~ so, virtually synonymous with fore-loving and fore-choosing. This is God's foreknowing His elect.

So All of the world based on what you said is the elect. That is the context.

IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII don't think so. <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Titus.

 

[PinSeeker]

....you just make me a bit nervous...
<smile>

Yikes. I certainly don't mean to do that... Grace and peace to you!

 

[GodsGrace]

1John 2:2 says He died for the WHOLE World

You are telling me those not yet converted that become converts are the elect.

Well sure, that is true.

So if we apply the unconverted to becoming the elect then...

- He Himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins(elected) and not only our sins(elected) but the sins of ALL the world(to be elected)

So All of the world based on what you said is the elect.
That is the context.

Interesting point Titus!
Of course no reformed person will ever agree with you.

It's good to read the bible without any preconceived doctrine or that doctrine is what will be read into scripture.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world....simply just what John says. John the Apostle, that is.

I'm not certain what John Calvin believed about limited atonement...but here are some of his comments:

We offer up our prayers unto Thee, O most gracious God and most merciful Father, for all men in general, that as Thou art pleased to be acknowledged the Savior of the whole human race by the redemption accomplished by Jesus Christ Thy Son…

************************************

Our Lord made effective for the thief his death and passion which he suffered and endured for all mankind.

***********************************

Indeed, our Lord Jesus was offered to all the world… Our Lord Jesus suffered for all and there is neither great nor small who is not inexcusable today, for we can obtain salvation in him.

-------------------------------------------------

We know that the entire human race is not saved.....
so what we should do is understand what is meant by Jesus' UNLIMITED ATONEMENT.

Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for ALL the sins from the beginning of man's sinning to the end of time.
But it will only be effective for those that accept the sacrifice.

 

[GodsGrace]

Many definitions of "world" in the Bible.

The whole world but not all persons without exception.

And not for ours only but also for those (the sins) of the whole (holos) world (kosmos - humanity in general) - Not for ours only refers to John and the believers he is addressing.

Elected....you just greektized 1 John 2:2 and admitted that world is kosmos.
So what does kosmos mean?

When it's used, it means THE WHOLE WORLD.
The following is from Strong's...which I don't use because I just go to a bible of a different language that is closer to the Greek.
But it also states that world means world...of course.

I DO agree that sometimes ALL might mean SOME; but we know when.
Sometimes MANY is used to really mean ALL - but we know when.

The reason we know is from context and also from doctrinal teachings.

John 8:12 below is a good example.
Jesus is the light of the world.
He definitely is the light.
But not everyone will accept that light and will prefer to live in darkness.

κόσμου (kosmou) — 72 Occurrences
Matthew 4:8 N-GMS
GRK: βασιλείας τοῦ κόσμου καὶ τὴν
NAS: the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
KJV: the kingdoms of the world, and
INT: kingdoms of the world and the

Matthew 5:14 N-GMS
GRK: φῶς τοῦ κόσμου οὐ δύναται
NAS: You are the light of the world. A city
KJV: the light of the world. A city
INT: light of the world not is able

Matthew 13:35 Noun-GMS
GRK: ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου
INT: from [the] foundation of [the] world

Matthew 24:21 N-GMS
GRK: ἀπ' ἀρχῆς κόσμου ἕως τοῦ
NAS: the beginning of the world until
KJV: the beginning of the world to this
INT: from [the] beginning of [the] world until

Matthew 25:34 N-GMS
GRK: ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου
NAS: for you from the foundation of the world.
KJV: from the foundation of the world:
INT: from [the] foundation of [the] world

Luke 11:50 N-GMS
GRK: ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου ἀπὸ τῆς
NAS: the foundation of the world, may be charged
KJV: the foundation of the world, may be required
INT: from [the] foundation of [the] world of the

Luke 12:30 N-GMS
GRK: ἔθνη τοῦ κόσμου ἐπιζητοῦσιν ὑμῶν
NAS: the nations of the world eagerly seek;
KJV: the nations of the world seek after:
INT: nations of the world seek after of you

John 1:29 N-GMS
GRK: ἁμαρτίαν τοῦ κόσμου
NAS: who takes away the sin of the world!
KJV: taketh away the sin of the world.
INT: sin of the world

John 4:42 N-GMS
GRK: σωτὴρ τοῦ κόσμου
NAS: is indeed the Savior of the world.
KJV: the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
INT: Savior of the world

John 6:51 N-GMS
GRK: τῆς τοῦ κόσμου ζωῆς
NAS: for the life of the world is My flesh.
KJV: for the life of the world.
INT: the of the world life

John 8:12 N-GMS
GRK: φῶς τοῦ κόσμου ὁ ἀκολουθῶν
NAS: the Light of the world; he who follows
KJV: the light of the world: he that followeth
INT: light of the world he that follows

 

[Titus]

Elected....you just greektized 1 John 2:2 and admitted that world is kosmos.
So what does kosmos mean?

When it's used, it means HE WHOLE WORLD.
The following is from Strong's...which I don't use because I just go to a bible of a different language that is closer to the Greek.
But it also states that world means world...of course.

I DO agree that sometimes ALL might mean SOME; but we know when.
Sometimes MANY is used to really mean ALL - but we know when.

The reason we know is from context and also from doctrinal teachings.

John 8:12 below is a good example.
Jesus is the light of the world.
He definitely is the light.
But not everyone will accept that light and will prefer to live in darkness.

κόσμου (kosmou) — 72 Occurrences
Matthew 4:8 N-GMS
GRK: βασιλείας τοῦ κόσμου καὶ τὴν
NAS: the kingdoms of the world and their glory;
KJV: the kingdoms of the world, and
INT: kingdoms of the world and the

Matthew 5:14 N-GMS
GRK: φῶς τοῦ κόσμου οὐ δύναται
NAS: You are the light of the world. A city
KJV: the light of the world. A city
INT: light of the world not is able

Matthew 13:35 Noun-GMS
GRK: ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου
INT: from [the] foundation of [the] world

Matthew 24:21 N-GMS
GRK: ἀπ' ἀρχῆς κόσμου ἕως τοῦ
NAS: the beginning of the world until
KJV: the beginning of the world to this
INT: from [the] beginning of [the] world until

Matthew 25:34 N-GMS
GRK: ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου
NAS: for you from the foundation of the world.
KJV: from the foundation of the world:
INT: from [the] foundation of [the] world

Luke 11:50 N-GMS
GRK: ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου ἀπὸ τῆς
NAS: the foundation of the world, may be charged
KJV: the foundation of the world, may be required
INT: from [the] foundation of [the] world of the

Luke 12:30 N-GMS
GRK: ἔθνη τοῦ κόσμου ἐπιζητοῦσιν ὑμῶν
NAS: the nations of the world eagerly seek;
KJV: the nations of the world seek after:
INT: nations of the world seek after of you

John 1:29 N-GMS
GRK: ἁμαρτίαν τοῦ κόσμου
NAS: who takes away the sin of the world!
KJV: taketh away the sin of the world.
INT: sin of the world

John 4:42 N-GMS
GRK: σωτὴρ τοῦ κόσμου
NAS: is indeed the Savior of the world.
KJV: the Christ, the Saviour of the world.
INT: Savior of the world

John 6:51 N-GMS
GRK: τῆς τοῦ κόσμου ζωῆς
NAS: for the life of the world is My flesh.
KJV: for the life of the world.
INT: the of the world life

John 8:12 N-GMS
GRK: φῶς τοῦ κόσμου ὁ ἀκολουθῶν
NAS: the Light of the world; he who follows
KJV: the light of the world: he that followeth
INT: light of the world he that follows

John said Christ shed His blood for the whole world and I believe what Gods word says.
It's that simple.
It only gets complicated when your churches doctrine teaches against what the word of God plainly says.
So, good for you for believing what John says!

Honest hearts can see the truth when its presented to them,
John 17:17,
- sanctify them with thy true, thy word is truth
John 8:32,
- and you shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free

 

[Titus]

Elected....you just greektized 1 John 2:2 and admitted that world is kosmos.
So what does kosmos mean?

When it's used, it means HE WHOLE WORLD.
The following is from Strong's...which I don't use because I just go to a bible of a different language that is closer to the Greek.
But it also states that world means world...of course

Unfortunately Electedbyhim is not aware he refuted his own limited atonement doctrine by teaching exactly what the passage says, 1John 2:2.
Very good work at pointing it out to him.

 

[GodsGrace]

I'm glad you are asking questions.

I dont know what you mean by "earthly church".

There is the church in the wilderness that was an earthly kingdom, the old physical Jewish kingdom.

Christ established His church when He died on the cross.

That one church, Ephesians 4:4 is the church He spoke of to Peter in Matthew 16:18-19

Where does it state that God established His church when He died on the cross?
Jesus established His church at the Last Supper when He told the Apostles to remember Him.
He established His church when He gave the Great Commandment to go out and preach/teach all nations and to baptize.
All nations...just as had been promised to Abraham.
This would be referring to an actual institution made of bricks and mortar.
At the beginning Christians attended the synagogue.
Then they were banished.
They also has home churches.
Then they used bldgs.
Nothing could exist without an institution.

The new testament church is not an earthly physical church.

How do you suppose heretical teachings were kept from invading the early church?

It is a spiritual church.

That TOO.

Now it is on earth because as I'm guessing you already understand that the church is not a building but the saved in Christ.

The church is a bldg.
The Church is the Body of Christ.

What I'm saying is that we need both.

But notice that saints in the church are dead physically therefore the church is also not all on this earth.
Therefore Jesus uses the church and the Kingdom interchangeably in Matthew 16:18-19.
Jesus is teaching us that the church is the Kingdom of God.

If the church is the Kingdom of God...then we're in trouble.
No denomination that I can think of is free from scandal - both moral and financial.

The Kingdom of God is the spiritual Kingdom that Jesus wanted to be on earth and that we Christians would practice it and that it would transform all the nations into a better place by practicing His teachings.

So the church is Christs body. Remember Jesus is referred to as the Head of His church but also the bridegroom of the church.

Agreed.

Ecclesia is feminine in the greek.

I know. God's called out people.
Called out from the world to seek HIS righteousness.

So to answer your second question,


Ephesians 4:4,
- there is ONE body and one Spirit even as ye are called in one hope of your calling

ALL VERSIONS OF THE BIBLE TEACH THE BODY OF CHRIST IS HIS CHURCH.

The church is His bride.

Colossians 1:18,
- and Jesus is the Head of His body, the  church who is the beginning the firstborn from the dead...

Ephesians 1:22-23,
- and hath put all things under His feet and gave Him to be Head over all things to the church, which is His body...

Ephesians 5:23,
- for the husband is the head of the wife even as Christ is Head of the church and He is the Savior of the  body

Ephesians 5:26,
- that Jesus might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water(baptism) by the word(Holy Spirit revelation)

See the church is the Kingdom and Christ cleanses His church(the body, saved people with His blood when we get baptized into Him).

Ephesians 5:26 church.
Parallels John 3:5 kingdom.

Agreed.

John 3:5,
- except a man be born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God

This Kingdom of God is the kingdom I was referring to above.

In Matthew 16:18-19,
The church keys fit the kingdom
And the Kingdoms keys fit the church

Jesus is giving to Peter the authority to begin His church...
Keys represent authority.

Topical Encyclopedia
In biblical literature, the key is a potent symbol of authority, power, and control. It signifies the ability to open and close, to permit or deny access, and to bind or loose. This symbolism is deeply rooted in the cultural and historical context of the Bible, where keys were not only practical tools but also emblematic of significant spiritual truths.

Old Testament References

The concept of keys as a symbol of authority is first seen in the Old Testament. In Isaiah 22:22, the prophet speaks of Eliakim, son of Hilkiah, who is given the key to the house of David: "I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open." . This passage highlights the transfer of authority and responsibility, as Eliakim is entrusted with the governance of the royal household, symbolizing his power to make binding decisions.

source: Topical Bible: Key: A Symbol of Authority

The body of Christ is the saved.
The saved are added to the church which also means they are added to His kingdom.

They are added to the Church.
Agreed.

Again,,,there is the church.....the bricks and mortar.
There is the Church....the Body of Christ.

God adds us to His kingdom when we believe and obey His new testament gospel.

Amen.

Acts 2:47,
- praising God and having favor with all the people and the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

Amen.

 

[Titus]

Where does it state that God established His church when He died on the cross?

Acts 20:28,
- therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to shepard the church of God which Jesus purchased with His own blood

Jesus had not shed His blood before the cross , therefore His church had not yet been established.
Only His shed blood PURCHASED the church.

How?

The people who are saved are the church
1 Corinthians 12:27,
- now ye are the body of Christ and members in particular

So, how are the body or individual members saved?
By His shed blood.
Therefore no one could be added to His body before He shed His blood.

Everyone in the Lords church had to be purchased with His shed blood on the cross.
This is how we know the church was not established until after His death.

Cant be in the church if there is no blood to purchase you.
An a atonement for sins.
We have a sin debt. That we cannot repay(meritorious works)
The only way are sins are remitted is by Jesus paying our sin debt.
The cost is His blood.

Jesus established His church at the Last Supper when He told the Apostles to remember Him.

Who told you that?
Can you give Scriptural evidence for it?
Where's the blood to purchase the members of the body?

He established His church when He gave the Great Commandment to go out and preach/teach all nations and to baptize.

That great commission was preached after His ressurection so yes, you are correct.
But folks had to hear Jesus' gospel in order to believe it and be saved by the blood of Christ.

All nations...just as had been promised to Abraham.

Correct, but when did this begin? But remember there is an old covenant, now when Jesus' gospel goes into effect after His death, the new covenant begins. Mark 16:15-16 is the new testament gospel.
Hebrews 9:16-17,
- for where a testament is there must also of necessity be the death of the testator
For a testament is in force after men are dead, otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth

This would be referring to an actual institution made of bricks and mortar.

I assumed wrong about you.
You need to learn that the church of Christ never was nor never will be a brick and mortar church.

The ecclesia meets in structures but the church is not the structure it meets in.
There is nothing Holy about a building.
If you disagree please give the new testament church passage for such a belief.

At the beginning Christians attended the synagogue.
Then they were banished.
They also has home churches.
Then they used bldgs.
Nothing could exist without an institution.

The Lords church is a spiritual house according to the word.
If you like the word institution.
You must know the church is not a man made institution.
God Himself instituted it.

1Peter 2:5,
- you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house to be holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ


The church met in the synagogue but the synagogue is not the church.

How do you suppose heretical teachings were kept from invading the early church?

Same way it's done today.
You must use the Scriptures to refute false teachers.
Even in the first century members started teaching error.
Paul had to correct those churches.

God has every local congregation appoint elders to keep the church sound.
But the members also have been commanded to keep the faith.

Acts 20:28,
- ...among which has made you overseers(elders) to shepard the flock(church)....

The church is a bldg.
The Church is the Body of Christ.

What I'm saying is that we need both

Friend, nowhere does the new testament teach the church is a building.
I used to believe that when I was nine years old because I thought the church was were we went on Sunday.

Later I learned the church is the people who go to the building on Sunday.

If the church is the Kingdom of God...then we're in trouble.
No denomination that I can think of is free from scandal - both moral and financial

Yes because the church is people and people are imperfect creatures.
But not to worry because when Jesus returns He will deliver up His church to heaven.
And all the wolves in the church will be seperated out of the eternal kingdom in heaven.

The Kingdom of God is the spiritual Kingdom that Jesus wanted to be on earth and that we Christians would practice it and that it would transform all the nations into a better place by practicing His teachings

Jesus wanted to be?
Friend God does not get overthrown by men!!!!!
If God wanted to establish a physical kingdom to rule over all other earthly kingdoms it would have occured.
You have been taught error.

John 18:36,
- Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world, if My kingdom was of this world My servants would fight so that I would not be handed over to the Jews but as it is My kingdom is not of this realm

So you see the church is a spiritual house.
And the kingdom is also not physical(earthly) but spiritual in nature.

Jesus is giving to Peter the authority to begin His church...
Keys represent authority.

Correct the keys represent authority.
Now who's church is it?
Peter's church?
And what do the keys do?
Why is Jesus giving Peter and the rest of the apostles the keys of His kingdom and the keys of the church in Matthew 16:18-19?

 

[PinSeeker]

Interesting point Titus! Of course no reformed person will ever agree with you.

Well, yes, and no. But no only, if the thinking is only in the first sense of Christ's atonement, which is indeed unlimited in scope, and not in the second, which inarguably is limited in scope. Both are true, and neither at the exclusion of the other.

I'm not certain what John Calvin believed about limited atonement...

Ah! <smile> Well, I have been very clear. Here again is what I posted in response to Titus's comment regarding 1 John 2 passage:

There is a sense in which Jesus did die for the whole world, for sure, and 1 John 2:2 is not the only place where we see that. But there is also a sense, a different sense, in which He only died for the elect, those given to Him by the Father. Both are equally true. So... those two things have to be held together, and they can be; because they are in different senses, there is absolutely a resolution between the two. And the latter is the sense in which John Calvin's "limited atonement" is firmly couched.​

We know that the entire human race is not saved.....

Right...

...so what we should do is understand what is meant by Jesus' UNLIMITED ATONEMENT.

I've explained several times, but okay...

Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for ALL the sins from the beginning of man's sinning to the end of time.

Sure.

But it will only be effective for those that accept the sacrifice.

Ah! Yes, but ~ you knew there would be a 'but'... <> ~ ...the acceptance is dependent on... something. Excuse me... Something. <smile> And we clearly see what that something is in Joel 2:32 (emphasis added)...

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls."​

...and Romans 9:11-24...

"...in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls... For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills... Has the Potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?".​

Ah, but "those He foreknew," from Romans 8:29-30, right? <chuckle> Well, as I said to Titus above (again)...

Look at what Paul says in Romans 8. He says, in Romans 8:29-30, "those whom He foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.​

​

The first thing to see there, irrefutably, is that there is no failure when it comes to God saving people. This is what we call the "golden chain" of salvation. God predestines, calls, justifies, and ultimately glorifies. His salvific act never fails..​

​

Secondly, at the very beginning, it says "those He foreknew." We'll talk about this foreknowing in a moment, but the irrefutable insinuation of "those He foreknew" is that there are some that He did not foreknow. So those He foreknew are a group less than the whole, so not all of humanity. As for God's foreknowledge, here, to 'know' something sometimes means, in the Bible, just a cognitive knowledge, like to know who they are, or what they did, are doing, or will do. But in this case, this 'knowing' is far, far more than mere cognition, because in that sense, God foreknows everyone and everything. To 'know' someone in the Bible is also used in the sense of loving that person with an intimate, personal action, a distinguishing love, which even denotes choosing, as a father does his child (I love everybody in one sense, right? But my children, who are adults now, I love with an intimate, personal, even distinguishing love). It is in this sense that Paul writes of God foreknowing ~ so, virtually synonymous with fore-loving and fore-choosing. This is God's foreknowing His elect.​

As I said to Titus above, God's Grace, I have yet to hear anyone ~ anyone, including you, Titus, or anyone else ~ on this forum give some alternate take on those passages. Which is not surprising, but yeah. I mean, it is what it is.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Acts 20:28,
- therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers to shepard the church of God which Jesus purchased with His own blood

Jesus had not shed His blood before the cross , therefore His church had not yet been established.
Only His shed blood PURCHASED the church.

How?

The people who are saved are the church
1 Corinthians 12:27,
- now ye are the body of Christ and members in particular

So, how are the body or individual members saved?
By His shed blood.
Therefore no one could be added to His body before He shed His blood.

Everyone in the Lords church had to be purchased with His shed blood on the cross.
This is how we know the church was not established until after His death.

Cant be in the church if there is no blood to purchase you.
An a atonement for sins.
We have a sin debt. That we cannot repay(meritorious works)
The only way are sins are remitted is by Jesus paying our sin debt.
The cost is His blood.


Who told you that?
Can you give Scriptural evidence for it?
Where's the blood to purchase the members of the body?


That great commission was preached after His ressurection so yes, you are correct.
But folks had to hear Jesus' gospel in order to believe it and be saved by the blood of Christ.


Correct, but when did this begin? But remember there is an old covenant, now when Jesus' gospel goes into effect after His death, the new covenant begins. Mark 16:15-16 is the new testament gospel.
Hebrews 9:16-17,
- for where a testament is there must also of necessity be the death of the testator
For a testament is in force after men are dead, otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth


I assumed wrong about you.
You need to learn that the church of Christ never was nor never will be a brick and mortar church.

The ecclesia meets in structures but the church is not the structure it meets in.
There is nothing Holy about a building.
If you disagree please give the new testament church passage for such a belief.


The Lords church is a spiritual house according to the word.
If you like the word institution.
You must know the church is not a man made institution.
God Himself instituted it.

1Peter 2:5,
- you yourselves like living stones are being built up as a spiritual house to be holy priesthood to offer spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ


The church met in the synagogue but the synagogue is not the church.


Same way it's done today.
You must use the Scriptures to refute false teachers.
Even in the first century members started teaching error.
Paul had to correct those churches.

God has every local congregation appoint elders to keep the church sound.
But the members also have been commanded to keep the faith.

Acts 20:28,
- ...among which has made you overseers(elders) to shepard the flock(church)....


Friend, nowhere does the new testament teach the church is a building.
I used to believe that when I was nine years old because I thought the church was were we went on Sunday.

Later I learned the church is the people who go to the building on Sunday.


Yes because the church is people and people are imperfect creatures.
But not to worry because when Jesus returns He will deliver up His church to heaven.
And all the wolves in the church will be seperated out of the eternal kingdom in heaven.


Jesus wanted to be?
Friend God does not get overthrown by men!!!!!
If God wanted to establish a physical kingdom to rule over all other earthly kingdoms it would have occured.
You have been taught error.

John 18:36,
- Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world, if My kingdom was of this world My servants would fight so that I would not be handed over to the Jews but as it is My kingdom is not of this realm

So you see the church is a spiritual house.
And the kingdom is also not physical(earthly) but spiritual in nature.


Correct the keys represent authority.
Now who's church is it?
Peter's church?
And what do the keys do?
Why is Jesus giving Peter and the rest of the apostles the keys of His kingdom and the keys of the church in Matthew 16:18-19?

This is... mostly... excellent, Titus. These things I would take some issue with:

"Jesus had not shed His blood before the cross, therefore His church had not yet been established.... Cant be in the church if there is no blood to purchase you. An a atonement for sins... folks had to hear Jesus' gospel in order to believe it and be saved by the blood of Christ..."​

I would submit to you, Titus, that Jesus's Church ~ also referred to as New Israel, the Isreal of God ~ includes believers both before and since Christ's coming of every tongue, tribe, and nation. Folks before Christ's coming heard the Gospel also, through the prophets ~ they made up what we call "Old Israel." That's not to say those of Old Israel are "gone forever" or excuded in any way; rather, they are included in every way in Christ. The only difference between the Israelites of old and all we who have come after Christ's birth, death, resurrection, and ascension is that while we are looking back on Christ and His atonement, they were looking forward to it. The Old Testament is filled with prophecies of the coming Christ from Moses to Malachi, filled with what we call "types" and "shadows" of the coming Christ... like "the lamb without blemish" mentioned over and over again in Leviticus. The believers of old were given faith just like us and saved in exactly the same way as we are; the entirety of Hebrews 11 testifies to this.

So what we should know about the Israel of old before Christ is that we identify intensely with them, and they with us. Together, we are all in Christ, and Christ's Church. As the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 1:1-2 (emphasis added), "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world." We are them, and they are us; we "are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28). We Gentiles "are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:19-22).

"But not to worry because when Jesus returns He will deliver up His church to heaven. And all the wolves in the church will be seperated out of the eternal kingdom in heaven..."​

Ah, when Jesus returns, heaven and earth ~ after the final Judgment, of course ~ will finally be one again. <smile> Which is what God promised in Genesis 3:15. Paradise restored. God doesn't say, "I am making all new things," but rather, in Revelation 21:5, "Behold, I am making all things new."

Grace and peace to you, Titus!

 

[GodsGrace]

Well, yes, and no. But no only, if the thinking is only in the first sense of Christ's atonement, which is indeed unlimited in scope, and not in the second, which inarguably is limited in scope. Both are true, and neither at the exclusion of the other.

I think we could agree. How would it be unlimited in scope? Why?
What would that particular atonement theory look like?
For me it would be referring to the Ransom Theory.
Adam and Eve sold humanity over to the control of satan.
Humanity had to be bought back...Jesus did this because He defeated death at the resurrection.
Some dislike this theory because it seems that God paid a ransom to satan.
Some understand it to mean, instead, that man had to be redeemed by being freed from the bondage to satan.
No payment...only freedom.

Ah! <smile> Well, I have been very clear. Here again is what I posted in response to Titus's comment regarding 1 John 2 passage:

There is a sense in which Jesus did die for the whole world, for sure, and 1 John 2:2 is not the only place where we see that. But there is also a sense, a different sense, in which He only died for the elect, those given to Him by the Father. Both are equally true. So... those two things have to be held together, and they can be; because they are in different senses, there is absolutely a resolution between the two. And the latter is the sense in which John Calvin's "limited atonement" is firmly couched.​

Right...


I've explained several times, but okay...


Sure.


Ah! Yes, but ~ you knew there would be a 'but'... <> ~ ...the acceptance is dependent on... something. Excuse me... Something. <smile> And we clearly see what that something is in Joel 2:32 (emphasis added)...

Of course there's a BUT Pinseeker....
Here is the BUT:
John 3:16
Acts 16:31
Romans 10:9
Matthew 7:21 and I'll stop here. There are plenty more.

"And it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls."​

Re Joel 2:32

In the bible TO CALL means to be invited to.
or to call out...
or to be converted...
called to a position....(were you called to be a missionary).
we are called out of the darkness.

It does not have only one meaning...


Also, you seem to be ignoring Joel 2:28 I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND.
Joel 2:32 WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE DELIVERED.

We have to read the entire passage.

...and Romans 9:11-24...

"...in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls... For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills... Has the Potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?".​

The reformed use the OT because of all the different types of language there:
Two would be poetic writing and narrative writing.
Easy to find almost anything there.

Sticking to only the NT is difficult for the reformed.
Want to try it?

Re Romans 9: Corporate salvation.

As for having mercy on whom God will have mercy...
YES.
Did He not have mercy on the Israelites when Moses came back down from Mt. Sinai and they were worshipping a golden calf?

Paul's listener's knew what Paul meant.
as does every denomination EXCEPT the reformed ....
they have their very own belief system on Romans 9, 10 and 11.

Ah, but "those He foreknew," from Romans 8:29-30, right? <chuckle> Well, as I said to Titus above (again)...

Look at what Paul says in Romans 8. He says, in Romans 8:29-30, "those whom He foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom He called He also justified, and those whom He justified He also glorified.​

​

The first thing to see there, irrefutably, is that there is no failure when it comes to God saving people. This is what we call the "golden chain" of salvation. God predestines, calls, justifies, and ultimately glorifies. His salvific act never fails..​

Good...except for the predestination.
There is predestination in the NT,,,but not regarding individual salvation.
If it meant this,,,the entire NT would make no sense at all.
Why even write it if God is going to choose?

​

Secondly, at the very beginning, it says "those He foreknew." We'll talk about this foreknowing in a moment, but the irrefutable insinuation of "those He foreknew" is that there are some that He did not foreknow.​

Oh no Pinseeker. God knows everything.
THOSE WHOM HE FOREKNEW HE PREDESTINED...
for what?
TO BE CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON.

Predestination is always for HOW or for PURPOSE.
It never regards personal salvation.

So try to find another verse in the NT that seems to state that we are chosen FOR SALVATION...

So those He foreknew are a group less than the whole, so not all of humanity. As for God's foreknowledge, here, to 'know' something sometimes means, in the Bible, just a cognitive knowledge, like to know who they are,​

Yes... this is what it means. God FOREKNEW who would come to accept Him.

or what they did, are doing, or will do. But in this case, this 'knowing' is far, far more than mere cognition, because in that sense, God foreknows everyone and everything. To 'know' someone in the Bible is also used in the sense of loving that person with an intimate, personal action, a distinguishing love,​

But we're not discussing Adam KNOWING his wife.
Let's stick to the discussion please.
Paul did NOT mean foreknow in this way...

which even denotes choosing, as a father does his child (I love everybody in one sense, right? But my children, who are adults now, I love with an intimate, personal, even distinguishing love). It is in this sense that Paul writes of God foreknowing ~ so, virtually synonymous with fore-loving and fore-choosing. This is God's foreknowing His elect.​

This is not orthodox Christian knowledge...if you care to post something I'll take a look.
You might want to post something from the Institutes or one of the Confessions...I've never seen anywhere what you're stating.
(this doesn't mean it doesn't exist).

As I said to Titus above, God's Grace, I have yet to hear anyone ~ anyone, including you, Titus, or anyone else ~ on this forum give some alternate take on those passages. Which is not surprising, but yeah. I mean, it is what it is.

Grace and peace to you.

I think I've covered everything.
If you want to discuss Romans 9 I'm willing.
It's your ONLY hope and it doesn't even refer to individual salvation but to the nation of Israel.
Perhaps we could discuss Pharaoh too?

 

[Titus]

This is... mostly... excellent, Titus. These things I would take some issue with:

"Jesus had not shed His blood before the cross, therefore His church had not yet been established.... Cant be in the church if there is no blood to purchase you. An a atonement for sins... folks had to hear Jesus' gospel in order to believe it and be saved by the blood of Christ..."​

I would submit to you, Titus, that Jesus's Church ~ also referred to as New Israel, the Isreal of God ~ includes believers both before and since Christ's coming of every tongue, tribe, and nation. Folks before Christ's coming heard the Gospel also, through the prophets ~ they made up what we call "Old Israel." That's not to say those of Old Israel are "gone forever" or excuded in any way; rather, they are included in every way in Christ. The only difference between the Israelites of old and all we who have come after Christ's birth, death, resurrection, and ascension is that while we are looking back on Christ and His atonement, they were looking forward to it. The Old Testament is filled with prophecies of the coming Christ from Moses to Malachi, filled with what we call "types" and "shadows" of the coming Christ... like "the lamb without blemish" mentioned over and over again in Leviticus. The believers of old were given faith just like us and saved in exactly the same way as we are; the entirety of Hebrews 11 testifies to this.

So what we should know about the Israel of old before Christ is that we identify intensely with them, and they with us. Together, we are all in Christ, and Christ's Church. As the writer of Hebrews says in Hebrews 1:1-2 (emphasis added), "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world." We are them, and they are us; we "are all one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3:28). We Gentiles "are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit" (Ephesians 2:19-22).

"But not to worry because when Jesus returns He will deliver up His church to heaven. And all the wolves in the church will be seperated out of the eternal kingdom in heaven..."​

Ah, when Jesus returns, heaven and earth ~ after the final Judgment, of course ~ will finally be one again. <smile> Which is what God promised in Genesis 3:15. Paradise restored. God doesn't say, "I am making all new things," but rather, in Revelation 21:5, "Behold, I am making all things new."

Grace and peace to you, Titus!

I'm not excluding the Jews or even faithful gentiles that died during the old testament.

I simply was not discussing them.

The new testament teaches that physical Israel, those of ethnic Hebrew origin.
Are no longer Gods chosen people.
All those saved under the new testament gospel of Jesus Christ are now referred to by Paul as spiritual Israel.

Physical Israel = ethnic Jews of old testament
Spiritual Israel= All of mankind that are saved put in the Lords church by God. Both Jews and gentiles that believe in Jesus.

Romans 10:12,
- for there is no distinction between jew nor Greek for the same Lord of all bestowing His riches on all who call on Him

Paul makes the distinction in Romans 9:6 of physical Israel and spiritual Israel,
- not as though the word of God hath taken none effect for they are not all Israel(ethnic jews) which are of Israel(gentile converts to Christ)

Gods people today are not ethnic jews.
They are anyone who believes and obeys Jesus.
A spiritual house, spiritual Israel

When Jesus died on the cross His blood went backwards and forwards.

It cleansed all the sins of those who died faithfull to God before Gods crucifixion on the cross.

Hebrews 10:4,
- for it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins
- therefore when Christ came into the world He said sacrifice and offering He did not desire but a body you have prepared for Me
- then He said here I am I have come to do your Will He sets aside the first(old covenant) to establish the second(new covenant)
- and by that will we(jewish christians) have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once and for all

It is Christ's sacrifice that redeemed the Jews of the old covenant and all those to come until the return of Jesus.

So when Jesus died and shed His blood He purchased all the old testament saints and they are now in the new covenant, the new testament church.

Romans 1:16,
- for I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that believeth to the jew first and to the gentile

 

[BreadOfLife]

s you know Bread....I think what you do here for the CC is horrible.

Given your penchant for being dishonest – I take that as a complement . . .

But, I do agree with you that there are no dead.....I think persons just mean alive on the earth...on this side. Even Protestants believe we are judged immediately after death.

But here are 2 questions for you:
Where does Rev 5:8 state we are to pray to the saints?

It doesn’t say that. It implies it.

Biblical teaching comes to us in TWO ways:
Explicit teaching and Implicit teaching.
For example - the idea that Jesus had 2 wills (divine & human) is not explicitly taught - but is a basic Christian belief.

Rev. 5:8 shows direct intercession from the saints in Heaven for the saints on earth. Since the Bible never forbids asking those in Heaven to pray FOR us - we can conclude that we CAN ask them for their prayerful intercession, per Rev. 5:8.

If saints can hear our prayer....does this mean they're omnipresent?
I thought only God was omnipresent.

Thanks

It doesn’t take omniscience or omnipresence to hear the prayers of a FINITE number of people. And their ability to hear multiple prayers at the same time is due to the power of GOD – not the saint in Heaven. Everything that a person is capable of – on earth or in Heaven - is by the power of God. Hoe do you thing Moses and Elijah appeared at the Transfiguration. By their own power?

Don’t forget that with God - NOTHING is impossible (Luke 1:37).

 

[BreadOfLife]

HOW
did a thread on the reformed faith
become
an attack on the CC??

How do MANY of these threads become anti-Catholic tirades?

Could it be your attitude??

Nope. just exposin' LIES . . .