The Doctrines of Grace

[GodsGrace]

Maybe... <smile>


I've been very clear about this. Christ's sacrifice is sufficient for all, and in that sense is for the whole world, for everyone... unlimited. However, we know that not everyone will be saved, Christ's atonement is only applied to and effectual for those who have been given to Christ by the Father, the elect. In that sense, Christ's atonement is indeed limited... to the elect of God. As Christ Himself said, "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out" (John 6:37), and "No one can come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day" (John 6:44), and "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:27-30).

Like I said,,,we agree re the atonement.
But MUST you add all those little side verses that would each require a complete reply?
This makes it very difficult to speak to you.

IF the Father h as to give persons,,,there is NO NEED for any atoning sacrifice.
If Calvinism is correct,,,Jesus NEVER HAD TO DIE.

I'm not going down each rabbit hole you present so I'll stop here.

A call in Scripture can be in one of two senses, and is... either/or, of course... in different places in Scripture:

• There is a general call of the Gospel, and this is issued to all. Yes, this is an invitation
• But there is the inward call to salvation in Christ, issued individually and inwardly by the Spirit only to God's elect. This calling of God always results in the conversion of the heart to Christ. Yes, we are called out of darkness and into His marvelous light. In receiving this call, we are then born again, and no longer children of the devil (of Satan) but children of God (of God).

Ohhhh... I sure here we go with free will again, as if I'm saying there is no such thing...

I like the call in Book 3, Chapter 24, Paragraph 8
Just below the beginning....I'll post it if I have to but I'm sure you have the institutes and could find it.

Please comment ON THAT call.
Thanks.

BTW...It kind of proves OSAS or ETERNAL SECURITY or PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS is false.
But that's another rabbit hole..but a good one because it they're false...calvinism falls on its face, doesn't it?

Not at all. Here we talk about God's grace, which in one sense is common and given to all. Everyone, whether they know it or not, acknowledge it or not, is given grace by God in varying measure... starting with life itself. But not everyone will receive God's salvific grace, what we sometimes call particular grace, which is given by God to His elect only.

WHERE does it state in the NT that God gives His grace to ONLY those He wishes to elect?
And HOW does one become an elect?

Sure we do. Absolutely. And in concert with other passages. The 'whoever' here is exactly what Jesus is referring to in John 3:16, and Paul in Romans 10:9. And this 'whoever' depends first on receiving God's call.

WHERE does it state this in scripture?
These passages are PRSCRIPTIVE PS....NOT DESCRIPTIVE.
Unless you could prove otherwise.
I don't have to prove it....simple reading skills and context and doctrine in general will bring to the premise that
ANYONE...WHOSOVER, CHIUNQUE, can receive salvation by believing in Jesus.

BY BELIEVING IN JESUS.
Acts 16:31 BELIEVE IN JESUS and you will be saved.
Explain that one...it cannot be explained away.

It is absolutely true that whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved/delivered. But only those who are called by God will call on the name of the Lord... our calling on the name of the Lord is the direct result of our having received, by the Spirit, the salvific call of God and having been born again of the Spirit.

You're going to have to show this from scripture.

And,,, we're back to the backwards buggy.
First we have to be born again in order to become born again.

Very interesting Pin.
Let me ask: Are all babies born totally depraved?
Or are those that WILL BE CALLED already saved?

Sounds trappy...
it is.

If those that WILL BE CALLED are born saved.
Why is ANY grace needed?

Ah, so it's irrelevant, and has nothing to do with the New Testament, and we should completely ignore it. I see... <smile> Goodness gracious. So this is not really a Reformed "issue," GodsGrace, but rather, really, a covenantal thing as opposed to a dispensational thing, which has... well, far-reaching ramifications. Scripture is covenantal and intimately connected, rather than dispensational and disjointed.

Did I say the OT is irrelevant? here's what I said: If I did say it, please copy and paste because it's not something I would say.
The reformed use the OT because of all the different types of language there: Two would be poetic writing and narrative writing. Easy to find almost anything there.

Now, I'm going to make believe you understand that the OT has different writing types/forms.

What I said is that you SHOULD NOT use POETIC LANGUAGE to create doctrine.
You could disgree...but I don't believe any doctrine is based on any poetic language.

LOL! Jesus and all the New Testament writers quote the Old Testament very, very, extensively. Come on, GodsGrace, you know that.

Did I say anything pertaining to Jesus and the OT?
I fear our conversation will quickly be coming to an end if you can't even understand what I'm saying.
It might be me...maybe.

Here's what I said:
Sticking to only the NT is difficult for the reformed. Want to try it?

I stand by this statement.
Guess you don't want to try it.
Can't prove ANY calvinist doctrine using ONLY the NT because it's biographical and literal.

Individual. Paul starts if off by referring to Jacob, whom He loved, and Esau, whom He hated.

God HATED Esau? Could you interpret Luke 14:26? Thanks.
Paul wishes HE could be accursed to save his Jewish brethren.
He seems to love them more than God love them since so many of them were made to go to hell.
To whom was Paul addressing his remarks? To the gentiles or to the Jews? see 9:3 TO THE JEWS
What question does Paul ask in Romans 9: 6 HAS GOD FAILED?

Then he goes on to say that being one of His elect depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

Which mercy Pin?
The mercy that sends most of humanity to hell?
You haven't posted the verse for what salvation depends on.
And you should know that it only means that we are not saved by our works...human will = works.

1 of 2

 

[GodsGrace]

@PinSeeker

2 of 2

There could be a corporate will? How would that work?
Paul is speaking about the NATION of Israel...
His brethren THE JEWS rejected Jesus as the Messiah.
How could this be when they were waiting for the Messiah and Jesus was surely the Messiah.

And Paul goes on to say ~ quoting Moses from Exodus 33, who there quotes God ~ God has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills.

Perfect. Paul is quoting Moses. The Jews knew their OT a lot better than you or I do.
Did God have mercy on the Israelites when they were worshipping the golden calf?
Yes. He did. God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy.
Think of Sodom and Gomorahh too.
God is a loving God and will have mercy on many as He so wishes at any particular time He wishes.
This has nothing to do with soteriology......but with history.

Hardens? Yes. Wish to discuss Pharoah?
Easy. First P hardened his own heart -
then God finished the job.
See Romans 2:24 God will do this. People become hardened...they are not born that way. See Acts 28:24 OTHERS WOULD NOT BELIEVE...sounds like man has a good bit to do with hardening his own heart.

This is irrefutably a giving of mercy to certain individuals, and a hardening of certain individuals.

Agreed. IF you consider each and every person in a GROUP to also be individuals.

A MOB will destruct a bldg...but it's the INDIVIDUALS that are going to prison.
But the NEWS will be about the destruction of the bldg....not each and every individual person.

Then Paul drives it home by saying, "Has the Potter no right over the clay..." (an Old Testament reference) "...

Did you mean the reference to Jeremiah 18?
I could get into it more if you wish...but, are you agreeing that GOD makes us into puppets?

to make out of the same lump..." (all) "...one vessel..." (one person) "...for honorable use and another..." (another person) "...for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels..." (people/individuals) "...of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels..." (people/individuals) "...of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called..." (clearly Paul is inferring here that there are some who are not called) "...not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles" (regardless of ethnicity).

Yes. It sounds like you're agreeing that we're just a bunch of puppets being pulled by God's strings.
At last...honesty!

Ummm... some probably didn't.

So Paul was speaking to Jews,,,who spent their life learning their religion,,,going to lessons and learing from their rabbi...
and YOU state that some probably didn't.
I'd say a VERY small some Pin.
And only if there was something wrong with them.

Again, not a reformed issue, GodsGrace. Scripture is covenantal, not dispensational. That's the issue.

I don't know WHAT you're talking about.
I don't know what dispensationalism is.

BUT
Romans 9, 10 and 11 is MOST DEFINITELY a reformed issue:
Here's why:
1. Chap 9 is the only chapter that sounds REMOTELY reformed.
This is because ONLY the reformed explain it the way they do.
As I said...Every other denomination DOES NOT accept the reformed interpretation.
I could list a lot of reading for you and post some videos....
I do this all the time, knowing full well that they will not be read or listened to.
Why? Because the reformed are afraid of leaving their little nest...they might find out the truth.
I left a denomination and I know how this is...most are not willing to go where the evidence takes them.

LOL! Yeah, no such thing as God's predestination ~ "for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of his glorious grace..." (Paul, Ephesians 1:5). Oh wait, yes there is... <smile> And that's even the New Testament, not the Old, which we are to ignore... <smile>

You DID post the right words...
PURPOSE
SONS THROUGH JESUS

I NEVER said there is no predestination.
What we mainline Christians believe is that there IS predestination but it has to do with
HOW and
PURPOSE

NOT individual salvation.
Could you find a verse that is speaking to individual salvation?
No, you will not.

Do you believe we predestine ourselves? If so, isn't that a post-destination? God post-destines those who choose Him? Even though we read there in Ephesians 1 that "God ...has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world..." ~ "...though (we) were not born yet and before any of us had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him who calls," drawing from Paul's words in Romans 9:11 ~ "...that we should be holy and blameless before him"...? Come on GodsGrace. You're a smart person. This is not hard to understand.

Yes. I now you love Romans 9 and told you why.

Perhaps we could move on from Romans 9?
Have you nothing else to offer?

Re Ephesians 1...listen:
GOD CHOSE US IN HIM
HE CHOSE US
IN HIM

From before the foundation of the world God planned that we would be chosen IN CHRIST for salvation.

WHERE in that verse do you read that an individual person is chosen before the beginning of time FOR SALVATION.
You don't.

What you're reading is the HOW to which I've already spoken.

Yes it is. See above. If you want to call it corporate, it is corporate in the sense that this is for all God's Israel, every single member of His household, His elect, the household of God.

Like I said...please post some verses stating that God predestines individuals to salvation based on His own good pleasure.

So... again, rhetorical questions: We should give ourselves glory? We should glorify ourselves? Even praise and (GASP) worship ourselves for our salvation?

I thought we were having a SERIOUS conversation.

LOL! I just said that; thanks for agreeing. Yes, He knows everything and everyone, and He knows beforehand everything that everyone will do. But again, the irrefutable insinuation of "those He foreknew" in Romans 8:29 is that there are some that He did not foreknow. So this foreknowledge that Paul is speaking of is not in reference to everyone but only to a select group less than the whole of humanity, and because of that, it cannot be a mere cognitive knowledge beforehand. It cannot.

Pin, I refuse to reply to silly ideas.
Not going there.
GOD FOREKNOWS EVERYTHING.

Unless He's not so sovereign.

Interesting that you bring this up, as I didn't mention it, but great; yes, the translated-to-English 'foreknew' is from the Greek root of 'know,' and that is the Greek translation of the Hebrew word used in Genesis 4:1. Yes, Adam knew his wife Eve, and she conceived a son, and it is absolutely analogous to God's knowing His elect ~ foreknowing, in reference to what Paul says in Romans 8:29.

Yes indeed. Romans 8:29 GOD FOREKNOWS.
And YOU brought up knowing in some way that has NOTHING to do with this conversation.
So I'll end it here.

No, He fore-loved them. And that fits perfectly with what John says in 1 John 4:19, that "(w)e love because He first loved us."

Sure. Except God loves THE WHOLE WORLD.
John 3:16

WORLD...KOSMO
want to change the meaning?

 

[GodsGrace]

It is. But dispensationalism is pervasive, especially in the West.


Ohhhh, it exists. Here's the Westminster Confession of Faith. There are 33 chapters but it's really not that long a read. Relevant to what we're discussing, you might focus on Chapter 3 (Of God's Eternal Decree), chapter 9 (Of Free Will), Chapter 10 (Of Effectual Calling). Yeah, published in 1647; it's just a magnificent document. Not Scripture, of course, but saturated with Scripture references.


Ah yes. <chuckle>


See above.


I don't even know what this means... other than maybe you're saying there's nothing anywhere else in the Bible that says these things, but that's not true at all. Paul makes several Old Testament references in Romans as a whole and chapter 9 in particular, and he talks about the same things in different ways in his other epistles, and Peter, who also references the Old Testament extensively, says some of the same things, albeit in different ways.


Well, individuals who make up God's Israel. This whole discourse is not just Romans 9, but really Romans 9-11, where Paul finally says, "Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened... a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel..." ~ every single member of God's Israel, His household ~ "...will be saved..."


You mean the Pharoah that God hardened? <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

Here's the deal Pin...
I can't keep going back to my post in order to answer your replies. It just takes too much time
If you want to continue you're going to have to use some kind of syntax in your replies...
if you can't do it...so be it.

If you want me to address any of the above,,,I have to know what I said first.
And I can't tell just from your reply.
Sorry.

Like, for instance...WHAT exists in the Westminster Confession?
MAYBE you could put what I had asked in your request/reply?

 

[Ritajanice]

Short commentary.

In John 3:8, Jesus teaches that regeneration is the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit who produces new hearts in the elect. As the wind moves wherever it wills, the Spirit moves in whomever He wills.

 

[amigo de christo]

I can't argue with you Christo.
The CC has many good things about it....
But it is also afraid to preach in the method you've stated above.
Does it make a difference?
I'm not sure and I'll discuss with you if you wish to, but I'll tell you this...
in all the time I've been a born again Christian and had to leave the CC, I have NEVER seen
ANY denomination change...MAYBE the Nazarene church but I'm not 100% sure.
Catholics are right about the sacraments...they're all found in scripture....but they should not be ADDED to salvation but
only be a PART of it. It's true that grace comes ALSO by participating in sacraments....everything we do for God will give us blessings and will give us ever the more of His grace; but the CC makes it sound like sacraments are the only way to get grace.

Anyway, that's it for now.

We have been born late in the game my friend . So you wont hear me argue about the denominations and their so called change .
ITs all went down hill .
But there are still men who GOD did call and put into ONLY the bible to learn and to grow
and HE SURE changed them . Not a sin to have a house church and i rather suggest the TIME TO DO SO IS NOW
because friend , i aint never seen a delusion like the one i see today . And friend
i can barley count the few who have not been infected to some degree already . EVEN if they have not yet submitted to beleive the LIE .
THEY SOON WILL . We have got to get this people back into the bible for themselves .
IT must no longer allowed to be taught , said or beleived that one cannot learn for themselves . cause that is A fat lie .
IF WE JUST had read ONLY the bible , you had been amazed at how simple things could have been
and how EDIFIED the church could have been . but so long as men trust in languages , scholars and teachers
they are in dire trouble . NOW i aint saying there are no teachers . BUT i am saying
Trying to find a man who simply desires to teach FROM ONLY THE BIBLE
and does not rather teach from a denominations view point , IS ABOUT NON EXISTANT .
THIS IS SUCH an easy fix . ONLY most have NO DESIRE to do or to heed the one simple solutoin .
WHICH IS BIBLE TIME FOR ONESELF . GET HUNGRY FOR THE TRUTH AGAIN . let today
be as the first day when the heart was all about GOD and let the peoples be hungry to learn anew and afresh
that BIBLE for themselves . LET No man fool thee , tis not complicated and impossible to do this .
If a man is led into a bad teaching , THE MAN DESIRED Such a teaching and NOT THE TRUTH .
NOW facts are facts . ITS BIBLE TIME . and by the way
what are the sacrements . bring a list of what they call the sacrments so i can , AND I WILL , examine it .
I take no man at his word , I EXAMINE .

 

[GodsGrace]

We have been born late in the game my friend . So you wont hear me argue about the denominations and their so called change .
ITs all went down hill .
But there are still men who GOD did call and put into ONLY the bible to learn and to grow
and HE SURE changed them . Not a sin to have a house church and i rather suggest the TIME TO DO SO IS NOW
because friend , i aint never seen a delusion like the one i see today . And friend
i can barley count the few who have not been infected to some degree already . EVEN if they have not yet submitted to beleive the LIE .
THEY SOON WILL . We have got to get this people back into the bible for themselves .

I agree. But even the NT says that we need preachers.
We have preachers teaching different doctrine.
This is starting to be upsetting to me...it didn't used to bother me so much.
Not sure why I find it so disturbing now.
Maybe I see Christianity slipping away....

I hear that the young are looking for solid churches that teach strong doctrine.
Maybe it's our generation that had it good and didn't appreciate what we had.ggggggggggggg

IT must no longer allowed to be taught , said or beleived that one cannot learn for themselves . cause that is A fat lie .
IF WE JUST had read ONLY the bible , you had been amazed at how simple things could have been
and how EDIFIED the church could have been . but so long as men trust in languages , scholars and teachers
they are in dire trouble . NOW i aint saying there are no teachers . BUT i am saying
Trying to find a man who simply desires to teach FROM ONLY THE BIBLE
and does not rather teach from a denominations view point , IS ABOUT NON EXISTANT .

I learned from 3 different denominations.
None of which taught anything weird.
They each had some doctrine or other that went a bit overboard....
but it was mainline Christianity.

Now here's how I see it:
Those that come here and have learned from a denomination...I could speak to.
We disagree on doctrine but we have the main items on our list.
Those that come here and say they learned on their own, from the Holy Spirit, and then spew
out weird stuff I never heard of....THESE are the ones causing division in the faithful.
I don't agree with the soteriology of the reformed....but they are Christian through and through.
I don't agree with some Catholic doctrine, but they are Christian through and through.

THIS IS SUCH an easy fix . ONLY most have NO DESIRE to do or to heed the one simple solutoin .
WHICH IS BIBLE TIME FOR ONESELF . GET HUNGRY FOR THE TRUTH AGAIN . let today
be as the first day when the heart was all about GOD and let the peoples be hungry to learn anew and afresh
that BIBLE for themselves . LET No man fool thee , tis not complicated and impossible to do this .
If a man is led into a bad teaching , THE MAN DESIRED Such a teaching and NOT THE TRUTH .
NOW facts are facts . ITS BIBLE TIME . and by the way
what are the sacrements . bring a list of what they call the sacrments so i can , AND I WILL , examine it .
I take no man at his word , I EXAMINE .

Reading for oneself is not only good it should be REQUIRED by every denomination.
But it might be better not to? Maybe persons will find out the truth??
Anyway, this is a long and complicated thought.
The sacraments: (In the CC).
BAPTISM
COMMUNION
CONFIRMATION
RECONCILIATION
HOLY ORDERS
MATRIMONY
THE ANNOINTING OF THE SICK

 

[KUWN]

So if we have different opinions HOW do I know who is right?
Is OSAS right or is it wrong?

Is there a sure-fire way to know?

I think you are struggling with the fundamental clarity of scripture. An interpretation comes after an interpretation method is chosen. I take the scriptures as literal (historical, lexical, grammatical, etc) . Those who also take the scriptures literal will basically come to a literal interpretation of the text. Those who take the text metaphorical, will come to a different interpretation. Those who take it symbolically will come to yet another interpretation. The scriptures are interpreted with different methods. So, we don't have different interpretations, we have different interpretive methods. So, under the literal interpretive method OSAS is dogmatically right. If you take the spiritual method of interpretation, OSAS may be wrong. Other interpretations will have their dogmatic truth by virtue of first of all picking an interpretative method.

A lot of people reject this concept of literal interpretation method. Mainly because they want to insure that their interpretation is as good as anyone else's.

As Paul wrote often: I do not want you to be ignorant brethren....
John also, he says that I have written these things so you may KNOW you have eternal life.
The Apostles were not wishy washy. They used the literal method of writing.

 

[KUWN]

It means that ALL CHRISTIANS should be believing EXACTLY the same doctrine!

And this is the case for those who have the same method of interpretation.

 

[KUWN]

How does 2 Peter 1:3 prove that everything we know has to come straight out of the bible?

Take special note of anyone who does not obey our instruction in this letter (not in the churches). Do not associate with them, in order that they may feel ashamed.

 

[PinSeeker]

Like I said,, we agree re the atonement.

I hope so.

But MUST you add all those little side verses that would each require a complete reply?

Just being thorough.

This makes it very difficult to speak to you.

It shouldn't; that sounds like a you thing.

IF the Father has to give persons,,, there is NO NEED for any atoning sacrifice. If Calvinism is correct,,,Jesus NEVER HAD TO DIE..

I have no idea what you mean by this. Other than that maybe what you're saying by this is that since God chose who would be saved, there was no need for anyone to pay the wages of sin (death), but that's quite ridiculous. But, to the first part of this quote... God didn't have to save anyone, even with Jesus's atoning sacrifice; He could have ~ and would have been perfectly just in so doing ~ not had mercy nor compassion on anyone, because none are deserving of His salvific grace, and in fact deserving of quite the opposite. But God... (Ephesians 2:4-10).

I'm not going down each rabbit hole you present so I'll stop here.

No "rabbit holes," but probably a good idea. <smile>

I like the call in Book 3, Chapter 24, Paragraph 8

Well, good.

I like the call in Book 3, Chapter 24, Paragraph 8. Just below the beginning....I'll post it if I have to but I'm sure you have the institutes and could find it. Please comment ON THAT call. Thanks.

I can look at my hardcopy, or I can pull it up online, yes. But why don't you put what you want me to comment on in your own words, GodsGrace. Both the general call of God to salvation and His effectual calling, which I've been very clear about, are commented on there. This is what I've been saying, so I don't really see that anything needs any further comment from me. If you have something specific in mind, comment away.

BTW...It kind of proves OSAS or ETERNAL SECURITY or PRESERVATION OF THE SAINTS is false.

Just the opposite. But I'd be at least somewhat interested in hearing why you think that.

But that's another rabbit hole..

No, it's not.

calvinism falls on its face, doesn't it?

Nope.

WHERE does it state in the NT that God gives His grace to ONLY those He wishes to elect?

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved." (Paul, to the Christians in Ephesus, Ephesians 1:3-6)

Of course, this is not an exhaustive list...

continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

And HOW does one become an elect?

LOL! What does 'elect' mean, GodsGrace? And whose... well, Whose... purpose of election is it? Who does the electing, and why? And Paul is very clear in Romans 9:16, that "it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy." And I'll turn what Paul says in Romans 9:22-24 into a statement... that's really what he's doing there, posing a rhetorical question in order to make a statement: God desired/desires to show His wrath and to make known His power, and endured/endures with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of His glory for vessels of mercy, which He has prepared beforehand for glory ~ even us whom He has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles. The 'why' is easy; everything God does is for His own glory.

WHERE does it state this in scripture?

I've been very clear. Jesus in John 3:16 and Paul in Romans 10:17 (I think I said Romans 10:9 before, but it's verse 17) are referring directly to Joel 2:32. Whosoever, whoever, everyone. And that whosoever/whoever/everyone are all that the Lord calls, just as Joel says. Everyone ~ of any tongue, tribe, or nation... Jew or Gentile... ethnicity has no bearing ~ will be saved if they call upon the name of the Lord, for sure, as Joel says, but people's calling upon the name of the Lord depends first on God's inward, effectual, salvific call to His elect, "those whom the Lord calls," as Joel says.

These passages are PRESCRIPTIVE PS....NOT DESCRIPTIVE.

Both, actually.

BY BELIEVING IN JESUS. Acts 16:31 BELIEVE IN JESUS and you will be saved. Explain that one...it cannot be explained away. You're going to have to show this from scripture.

LOL! Sure, no problem.

"If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came from God and I am here... Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires... because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me... If I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God" (Jesus, John 8:42-47)

"...you do not believe because you are not among My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:26-30)

So again, you're right about believing in Jesus, but clearly, our believe depends on God's having given us to Jesus, which He does by calling us, by giving us new life in the Spirit, by being born again of the Spirit.

By the way, never is the rock-solid... excuse me; Rock solid... eternal security of the saints of God more clearly and irrefutably stated than in what Jesus, the Rock of our salvation, says there in John 10 ~ "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." Ohhhh... "but we can 'snatch ourselves,' and if we do, then we will perish, even after having been given eternal life..." Thanks be to God, no, 'no one' means 'no one.' No one, GodsGrace, including oneself. Goodness.

First we have to be born again in order to become born again.

continued...

 

[PinSeeker]

Very interesting Pin.

The name is PinSeeker.

Let me ask: Are all babies born totally depraved?

I've been very clear; all human beings are born "totally depraved." But I think you think "totally depraved" is something different than what John Calvin meant by that term.

Or are those that WILL BE CALLED already saved?

In a sense, yes... from God's perspective, as He is outside of time, infinite, and all time is now to Him. But from our perspective, because we are in time, which is part of God's creation (He is the potentate of time, as the hymn says), no, of course not. God's call comes by His Spirit, and by that we are justified, born again of the Spirit, given saving faith, and thus saved... raised and seated in the heavenly places in Christ, as Paul puts it in Ephesians 2. and thus given eternal life in Christ. Salvation is given when the person is called by God through the inward working of the Spirit in the heart (because of God's grace alone... this is sola gratia). Again, I've been very clear. But, people ask the same questions over and over again, Such is life, I guess.

If those that WILL BE CALLED are born saved.

Nope. See above. It seems you are putting words into my mouth, GodsGrace. But hey, you're surely not the first. <smile>

Why is ANY grace needed?

See above. No one is deserving of eternal life; it cannot be merited. So the grace has to come from... somewhere... someone ~ excuse me again; Someone... else no one would be saved. <smile> But, once given, this grace cannot be resisted, not because we woodenly "can't," but because we won't, because one's heart has been changed from stone to flesh, and having this new spirit, even God's Holy Spirit, he or she will not... his or her will will then be to do the will of his or her Father God, rather than his or her former father the devil.

Did I say the OT is irrelevant? here's what I said: If I did say it, please copy and paste because it's not something I would say.
The reformed use the OT because of all the different types of language there: Two would be poetic writing and narrative writing. Easy to find almost anything there.

With this statement you clearly insinuated that the only relevant passages could only possibly come from the New Testament... or that those are the only ones you would accept, which is tantamount to the same thing.

Now, I'm going to make believe you understand that the OT has different writing types/forms.

No need. Surely, there are histories, and the wisdom books, and poetry, and some apocalyptic literature... yes, for sure.

I don't believe any doctrine is based on any poetic language.

Ah, so none of the Psalms, or Proverbs, or Ecclesiastes, or at least parts of Isaiah, or Song of Solomon contain any doctrinal truths. I mean, surely you don't really think that, but... hmmm. Well, you're welcome to your opinion, certainly.

Here's what I said:
Sticking to only the NT is difficult for the reformed. Want to try it?

I stand by this statement.
Guess you don't want to try it.

I'm not going to stick solely to the New Testament. Such should not be done. It's all God's Word. And, as you know, "All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work" (2 Timothy 3:16-17) There was no New Testament in Paul's day, GodsGrace. "Scripture" was at that time what we know now as the Old Testament.

Can't prove ANY calvinist doctrine using ONLY the NT...

Sure I can, and have, extensively. But why leave out the Old Testament? And, as I said, Jesus and all the New Testament writers (and Jesus, of course) quote extensively (to put it mildly) from the Old Testament.

because it's biographical and literal.

Hmmm, well there's plenty of biographical and literal stuff in the Old Testament (I'm thinking of Abraham and Joseph and Moses and David, in particular), and again... well, think of the Old Testament ~ whatever the genre of literature ~ as containing many object lessons of truths made explicit in the New. Abraham, Joseph, Moses, and David we all "types" of Jesus. You know the quote: the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed.

God HATED Esau? Could you interpret Luke 14:26? Thanks.

I mean, God said he loved Jacob and hated Esau. That's Scripture. You want me to say that He didn't really hate Esau? Well, in a sense, He didn't, but in the sense of conferring salvation, He did. Here again, there are two very different senses of 'hate.' God loved Esau in the sense that He loves all of His creation, but He hated Esau in comparison to Jacob, whom He loved ~ and chose, elected over Esau. You might remember that Jesus says we should love Him and hate our own family, so, in the same way, our love for Jesus is to be far, far greater, even infinitely so, than our love for our family, even to make it in comparison a hate. But yes, in a humanistic sense, surely we love the members of our family.

To whom was Paul addressing his remarks? To the gentiles or to the Jews? see 9:3 TO THE JEWS

This is a personal letter from Paul to the Church in Rome, GodsGrace, and at the outset of the letter, he address who he is writing to, saying, "To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints." So, he's writing to Gentile believers in Christ. And he says it again in Romans 11:13, saying, "I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them."

Now... this might confuse you <smile> ...but Paul is actually speaking to Jews in the sense that they are Jews of God, because, as he says in Romans 2:28-29, "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical... a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."

HAS GOD FAILED?

Which mercy Pin?

PinSeeker.

The mercy that sends most of humanity to hell?

This is the withholding of mercy, and the administering of justice.

You haven't posted the verse for what salvation depends on.

Well, yes I have... and from the New Testament even! <smile> God's mercy. "Because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, He made us alive together with Christ ~ by grace we have been saved" (Ephesians 2:4-5).

And you should know that it only means that we are not saved by our works...human will = works.

Yes, I'm well aware of that. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Paul is speaking about the NATION of Israel...

Well, yes, but God's Israel, not physical Israel. And in Romans 9-11, he's clearly speaking of how God will save the individuals that will make up His Israel, His household ~ both ethnic Jew and Gentile.

Paul is quoting Moses.

And Moses quoted God.

The Jews knew their OT a lot better than you or I do.

If God says, "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy, compassion upon whom I will have compassion," GodsGrace, is there more than one way to even possibly understand that? Come on.

Did God have mercy on the Israelites when they were worshipping the golden calf? Yes. He did.

Not salvific mercy. He could have killed them all, I guess, or abandoned them, so in that sense, sure.

Wish to discuss Pharoah?

If you want... <smile>

First P hardened his own heart -

In a sense, sure. Now, this is a completely different thing, but the concept is the same... all the Bible writers, from Moses through the prophets and apostles, wrote the Bible. But hey, it's God's Word, and we know that it's God-breathed, inspired by the Holy Spirit in the writers, so Who really wrote it?

then God finished the job.

LOL!

People become hardened...they are not born that way.

They are born that way. Actually conceived... This hardening manifests itself in everyone as they mature in the form of sin. But the sin nature is there from birth... really from conception, even as David says of himself in Psalm 51:5... "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." I know what's coming now... No, David is not talking about his mother's sin.

See Acts 28:24 OTHERS WOULD NOT BELIEVE...sounds like man has a good bit to do with hardening his own heart.

People do not believe because they are of their father the devil (John 8); they do not believe because they are not among Jesus's sheep (John 10).

Did you mean the reference to Jeremiah 18?

That's what Paul is directly referring to, yes.

...are you agreeing that GOD makes us into puppets?

No, and Paul isn't either, and neither is Jeremiah. Do you somehow think that's what Jeremiah is saying?

It sounds like you're agreeing that we're just a bunch of puppets being pulled by God's strings.

That's just a (terribly) false caricature. God is sovereign over His creation, though.

So Paul was speaking to Jews,,,

The Jews of God, yes, but Gentiles... and us, by extension.

I don't know WHAT you're talking about. I don't know what dispensationalism is.

I don't doubt that one bit.

Romans 9, 10 and 11 is MOST DEFINITELY a reformed issue:

Of the making of dispensationalists. Romans 9-11 is difficult to accept, humanly speaking... or at least can be. Like Paul says in Romans 9, "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who can resist his will?' But who are you, O man, to answer back to God?" Paul knew very well the difficulty people would have with what he was saying.

I could list a lot of reading for you and post some videos

Yeah, great stuff, I'm sure... <smile> I've read and seen many; they mischaracterize reformed theology and Calvinism extensively, whether inadvertent or purposeful ~ just like you are here ~ and as such are... well, not so great. <smile>

Why? Because the reformed are afraid of leaving their little nest...they might find out the truth. I left a denomination and I know how this is...most are not willing to go where the evidence takes them.

Like I said, you're welcome to your opinions. And, truth be told, I grew up in a church that believed very much along the same lines you do, so I actually stood where you stand at one time. But, well, Scripture is Scripture.

I NEVER said there is no predestination.

But you make it out to be a post-destination, as I said.

What we mainline Christians believe is that there IS predestination but it has to do with HOW and PURPOSE

NOT individual salvation.

It's all three.

Could you find a verse that is speaking to individual salvation?

Ephesians 2:5. Among a great many others, including in Romans 9-11.

I know you love Romans 9...

Yes, along with the rest of Scripture.

Perhaps we could move on from Romans 9?

Yeah, you want to get away from that, I know. It's difficult to accept.

Have you nothing else to offer?

LOL!

Re Ephesians 1...listen: GOD CHOSE US IN HIM HE CHOSE US IN HIM

Well, thanks for reiterating what I posted (more than once)...

From before the foundation of the world God planned that we would be chosen IN CHRIST for salvation.

Well, maybe He "planned it all out," or maybe it was "just a whim" (I'm kidding about that), but that's not what Ephesians 1 says, GodsGrace. Paul writes (and I quote), "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of his glorious grace" (vv.4-6)

He's talking about what God did, GodsGrace. He chose us and predestined us.

WHERE in that verse do you read that an individual person is chosen before the beginning of time FOR SALVATION.

If we are in Christ, we have been saved, GodsGrace. Are you being serious right now? Goodness gracious. Surely you wouldn't say that we were all born again corporately, at the same time.

What you're reading is the HOW to which I've already spoken.

Yes, but not solely how. The why and the whom and for Whose glory... it's all there. Goodness gracious.

Like I said...please post some verses stating that God predestines individuals to salvation based on His own good pleasure.

Oh, well, besides all the ones I've pointed out, you mean? <smile> Okay, well, for starters, Philippians 2:12-13... "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure."

I thought we were having a SERIOUS conversation.

We were for a minute there, but you kinda started ranting on me, and... well, you know, so it goes....

refuse to reply to silly ideas. Not going there.

Well I don't blame you for that, so, hey, reply to my ideas instead. <smile> Or, actually Paul's, Peters... all of the Bible writers... really God's words/ideas... <smile>

GOD FOREKNOWS EVERYTHING.

In one sense, yes, everything and everyone, as I said. But Paul is not talking about everyone when he says "those who God foreknew" in Romans 8:29, but only the ones He then predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, and then called and justified, and will glorify. The irrefutable implication of that is that the 'those' is a select group, and there is a group of some size that God did not foreknow, so the foreknowing itself cannot be merely cognitive; it has to be something far more than that.

And YOU brought up knowing in some way that has NOTHING to do with this conversation.

That's the way you want to frame it, sure. But... well, you're just avoiding.

So I'll end it here.

Probably a good idea.

continued...

 

[Ritajanice]

@GodsGrace said below.

I'd have to agree with @Angelina.
Born Again is NOT a denomination.
It's a state of being....with God.

RJ below asks GG.

What does it’s a state of being with God mean?

Born of the Spirit is critical for salvation ,as what in us reunites us back to our Spirit Father?

If we aren’t reborn , then I’m afraid there is no communication with God.

Reading a Bible GG...does not mean that we know God in our heart/ spirit....that is where we know of God...The Bible confirms this.

What do you think seeking God out with our heart means?

Do you think it means reading the Bible?

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace said below.

I'd have to agree with @Angelina.
Born Again is NOT a denomination.
It's a state of being....with God.

RJ below asks GG.

What does it’s a state of being with God mean?

Born of the Spirit is critical for salvation ,as what in us reunites us back to our Spirit Father?

If we aren’t reborn , then I’m afraid there is no communication with God.

Reading a Bible GG...does not mean that we know God in our heart/ spirit....that is where we know of God...The Bible confirms this.

What do you think seeking God out with our heart means?

Do you think it means reading the Bible?

Some things you're going to have to figure out for yourself.
Another member on h ere is trying to help you but you REFUSE discussion at every turn.
I don't have time for this.

Also, you keep posting about spirit this and spirit that.
How about going over your soteriology and figuring out HOW people get saved?
That would be nice because you're REALLY confused about that.

And keep in mind, that Lizbeth is right in everything she's telling you.
You should listen instead of fighting with persons and telling them what a spiritual creature you are.


@Lizbeth forgot to tag you in

 

[Ritajanice]

Some things you're going to have to figure out for yourself.
Another member on h ere is trying to help you but you REFUSE discussion at every turn.
I don't have time for this.

No member can help me, only the Spirit.

Also, you keep posting about spirit this and spirit that.
How about going over your soteriology and figuring out HOW people get saved?
That would be nice because you're REALLY confused about that.

Unfortunately it’s you who is confused...we get saved after our spirit is Born Again..then we are saved from eternal damnation....you don’t understand what it means to be reborn,imo, as of yet, I’ve not heard you explain anything spiritual...only worldly stuff from your own perspective...

And keep in mind, that Lizbeth is right in everything she's telling you.
You should listen instead of fighting with persons and telling them what a spiritual creature you are.

Of course she is, according to you.

Lizbeth is not right about anything, The Spirit is...there is much Lizbeth doesn’t understand, same as me...as for you...get back to me when you understand the Living spiritual rebirth.....as of yet, I see not one ounce of spiritual knowledge in your posts....mostly condescending, criticism...in most of your religious posts...

@Lizbeth forgot to tag you in

 

[GodsGrace]

No member can help me, only the Spirit.

Unfortunately it’s you who is confused...we get saved after our spirit is Born Again..then we are saved from eternal damnation....you don’t understand what it means to be reborn,imo, as of yet, I’ve not heard you explain anything spiritual...only worldly stuff from your own perspective...

Of course she is, according to you.

Lizbeth is not right about anything, The Spirit is...there is much Lizbeth doesn’t understand, same as me...as for you...get back to me when you understand the Living spiritual rebirth.....as of yet, I see not one ounce of spiritual knowledge in your posts....

You LOVE to spar.
That is SO unlovingly born again Christian of you.

No more posting to you.

 

[Ritajanice]

You LOVE to spar.
That is SO unlovingly born again Christian of you.

No I hate to spar and here we go again with the condescending, self righteous emotional post...oh RJ you are so un loving as a Born Again Christ follower...LOL I say.

, take a darn good look at all your posts...you are one of the biggest hypocrites on this forum...how loving are some of your posts to members...you hypocrite ..according to you I’m a satanic follower and wrangler is a blasphemer...oh Lord the hypocrisy of this woman.sometimes the truth must be spoken to those who seem ignorant of their own self awareness, yet always pointing out the speck in a Brother or Sister eye, yet can’t for the life of them ,see the plank in their own eye...enough said...you put me on ignore and I’ll do the same...

No more posting to you.

Hallelujah and Praise God for that.

Edit to add I thought this was the trinity thread..that’s where you will see the true colours of GG...

 

[PinSeeker]

God loves THE WHOLE WORLD.

Yes, He loves all His creation, and is making it new. However... there is a sense in which He only loves... some/many.

want to change the meaning?

Nope.

Here's the deal Pin...

PinSeeker.

I can't keep going back to my post in order to answer your replies. It just takes too much time

Right, no need.

If you want to continue you're going to have to use some kind of syntax in your replies...

"Some kind of syntax"... what do you even mean by that?

If you want me to address any of the above,,,I have to know what I said first. And I can't tell just from your reply. Sorry.

Hm. I'm not even sure what you're talking about here. But no matter.

Like, for instance...WHAT exists in the Westminster Confession?

Um... whuuut? Why don't you just read it, GodsGrace? It's not hard. Nor time-consuming, really.

MAYBE you could put what I had asked in your request/reply?

No idea what you mean. The WCF? Again, no matter.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have no idea what you mean by this. Other than that maybe what you're saying by this is that since God chose who would be saved, there was no need for anyone to pay the wages of sin (death), but that's quite ridiculous.

Why is it ridiculous Pin?
Is God playing a sadistic game with us?
According to calvinist theology:
First God creates us and decrees that we would sin...the downfall.
Then He figures out a scheme to get us saved....by accepting His Son who will sacrifice Himself!
But wait...scheme not necessary.
GOD will decide who is saved and who is not.
Why pay any ransom to anybody?
Why Penal Substitution?
NO need!
God is doing everything HIMSELF....monergism.

So not ridiculous Pin.

But, to the first part of this quote... God didn't have to save anyone, even with Jesus's atoning sacrifice; He could have ~ and would have been perfectly just in so doing ~ not had mercy nor compassion on anyone, because none are deserving of His salvific grace, and in fact deserving of quite the opposite. But God... (Ephesians 2:4-10).

Tired of this tired argument.
Fact is God WANTED to save.

See the Edenic Covenant.
It's conditional.
God is sovereign.
Adam is the lord of the land/Garden.
Condition: Do Not Eat of the Tree
Blessing: Eternal Life
Curse: Separation from God.

Man failed through his choice to eat of the tree.

See the Adamic Covenant.
It's Unconditional
Because man cannot save himself.
Man becomes cursed. Genesis 3:16-20
Hate between woman's seed and HIS seed.
Blood is shed for mankind. Genesis 3:21
SIGN: ANGEL W/FLAMING SWORSD
SEAL: ANIMAL SACRIFICE


After man failed.....with his own free will as per the Edenic Covenant..
God offered to restore man to Himself with the Adamic Covenant.

No "rabbit holes," but probably a good idea. <smile>


Well, good.


I can look at my hardcopy, or I can pull it up online, yes. But why don't you put what you want me to comment on in your own words, GodsGrace. Both the general call of God to salvation and His effectual calling, which I've been very clear about, are commented on there. This is what I've been saying, so I don't really see that anything needs any further comment from me. If you have something specific in mind, comment away.


Just the opposite. But I'd be at least somewhat interested in hearing why you think that.


No, it's not.


Nope.


"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us for adoption to Himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved." (Paul, to the Christians in Ephesus, Ephesians 1:3-6)

Of course, this is not an exhaustive list...

continued...

OK Pin,,,
I see in the above there is no reply to THE CALL in the
Institutes Book 3 Chapter 24 Paragraph 8.
Was it too much to handle?

Your reply is: WELL GOOD

Plus I see some cute imoji in some of your replies.

So let's do this:
My time is valuable and apparently yours is not.

Besides the fact that you are UNABLE to defend your posistion but can only smirk
at serious conversation.



So, I do wish you well but will not be responding to you.