The Deity of Jesus under attack on this forum.

[Pearl]

On that last point you mentioned, and you have brought it up before. In my opinion, Internet Trinitarians have gone extreme in their doctrinal views. My Dad who has passes 12 years now was a RC and spoke broken English when he came over to England and reunited with his family during and after WWII. I believe he never knew of a trinity and its concept, and I would wager he would not believe anyone who said Jesus was the same or equivalent to his Father. In fact I know he would get very upset and walk out.

I do not know all of your beliefs for sure, although I see that you can disagree and still move on and leave the light on your porch and a welcome mat below in front of your door. Having confidence and faith in the word of God as we continue to learn, with the spirit of truth within us, makes all the difference.

Welcome to the forum Stephen

Perhaps this unbelief in the three persons of God is a US thing - I never heard it said in the UK.

 

[Brakelite]

@APAK @stephen64

It's pointless to continue any further trying to convince me to believe your opinions that Jesus is not God. There's no amount of elaborating on that one single verse, or anything else the two of you could do, BUT ...

... you could then move on to explaining to everyone who you believe Jesus IS then.

You guys want people to listen to your views on this subject so tell us: who and what is Jesus if not God?

Is He just a mortal?

Is He a lower god than the Father?

You guys can't be embracing a trinity perspective because the trinity declares that Jesus, the Father and the Spirit are equal; that they are all equally God.

So, help us understand. Who is Jesus if not God?

If your answer is that He's just the Son of God, in a 'mortal-turned-divine' sense, then how do you explain John 1:1, John 1:14, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:10, etc.?

I'm willing to listen to what you guys have to say in that regard because I can't fathom how your doctrine could be structured to coincide with all other well established doctrine and I'm very interested to learn something new.

Mmmm. I might add that certainly our faith is centered upon who we believe Jesus is, as opposed to who we believe He is not.

 

[GodsGrace]

How will you resolve the above in light of Romans 3:10-11?

To God Be The Glory

If you don't believe, you don't believe.[/QUOTE]
How do you reconcile Romans 3,10 to 11
With Romans 1,19 to about 21??

 

[stephen64]

On that last point you mentioned, and you have brought it up before. In my opinion, Internet Trinitarians have gone extreme in their doctrinal views. My Dad who has passes 12 years now was a RC and spoke broken English when he came over to England and reunited with his family during and after WWII. I believe he never knew of a trinity and its concept, and I would wager he would not believe anyone who said Jesus was the same or equivalent to his Father. In fact I know he would get very upset and walk out.

Thank you for your welcome. Yes, they have gone extreme in their views. I'm sure your dad was part of a much larger group in his views. In protestant churches, I have never heard any minister come up with the kind of things you read on the internet regarding this subject. In fact, when I first ventured onto these kinds of websites at the tender age of 50, I was stunned to read all the comments about Christ being God Himself. In over 40 years of going to various protestant trinitarian churches I had never once heard it stated from the pulpit

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace No way, right?

of course.
NOTHING supercedes the Word!

 

[APAK]

@APAK @stephen64

It's pointless to continue any further trying to convince me to believe your opinions that Jesus is not God. There's no amount of elaborating on that one single verse, or anything else the two of you could do, BUT ...

... you could then move on to explaining to everyone who you believe Jesus IS then.

You guys want people to listen to your views on this subject so tell us: who and what is Jesus if not God?

Is He just a mortal?

Is He a lower god than the Father?

You guys can't be embracing a trinity perspective because the trinity declares that Jesus, the Father and the Spirit are equal; that they are all equally God.

So, help us understand. Who is Jesus if not God?

If your answer is that He's just the Son of God, in a 'mortal-turned-divine' sense, then how do you explain John 1:1, John 1:14, Hebrews 1:2, Hebrews 1:10, etc.?

I'm willing to listen to what you guys have to say in that regard because I can't fathom how your doctrine could be structured to coincide with all other well established doctrine and I'm very interested to learn something new.

G2R: Check out my link and thread from this forum site for John 1:1:1 and 14. This a take of mine on this scripture.

The proof for the Preincarnation of Yahshua/Jesus is a fool's errand!

Post #46 I think, my memory is becoming fleeting.

Great Day

 

[GEN2REV]

@APAK @stephen64

It is very interesting, what with all the drama and fanfare together about John 17:3 proving that Jesus is not God, that neither of you responded to my simple question in post #315.

Interesting, not at all shocking.

Also, I wanted to back up a bit to your claim that Jesus is an angel since He claimed to be 'I AM' and 'I AM' spoke from the burning bush.

You are claiming:
1. God/Jesus cannot speak through others; angels, prophets, etc.
2. God/Jesus IS all the prophets, literally IS them, because He spoke through them.

Did God not speak through His most faithful servants many, many times throughout history?

Does that then make God His servants, including the angels?

Sounds like you two have something to answer for in these claims.

Pulling the hide and run card will be an admission of the absurdity of your mutual claims.

 

[APAK]

Thank you for your welcome. Yes, they have gone extreme in their views. I'm sure your dad was part of a much larger group in his views. In protestant churches, I have never heard any minister come up with the kind of things you read on the internet regarding this subject. In fact, when I first ventured onto these kinds of websites at the tender age of 50, I was stunned to read all the comments about Christ being God Himself. In over 40 years of going to various protestant trinitarian churches I had never once heard it stated from the pulpit

Same here, and only at the beginning of a service as some recited the creeds, written by men. And then it is only said as a strong implication. But, that was enough for me.....

 

[Pearl]

If you don't believe, you don't believe.

How do you reconcile Romans 3,10 to 11
With Romans 1,19 to about 21??[/QUOTE]
Not sure what you're saying here @GodsGrace

 

[APAK]

Perhaps this unbelief in the three persons of God is a US thing - I never heard it said in the UK.

It's a US thing and a Spirit of truth thing imo Pearl

 

[stephen64]

Same here, and only at the beginning of a service as some recited the creeds, written by men. And then it is only said as a strong implication. But, that was enough for me.....

You said you didn't really know my views on this subject, to put it simply, the difference here is not about the essence of Christ but his title. I don't want to be disingenuous to people. But in those circumstances, to read some of the posts you do is baffling. The biblical title you must give Christ to be saved is all over the place

 

[Pearl]

It's a US thing and a Spirit of truth thing imo Pearl

Well we will have to disagree with that. I am a mainstreaam Christian and believe in the Trinity, the Triune God. I have never heard any other view until I came on here and saw all the US people that believe otherwise.

 

[Pearl]

You said you didn't really know my views on this subject, to put it simply, the difference here is not about the essence of Christ but his title. I don't want to be disingenuous to people. But in those circumstances, to read some of the posts you do is baffling. The biblical title you must give Christ to be saved is all over the place

His name is Jesus. Christ means Messiah. He is God the Son but he is not God the Father or God the Holy Spirit.

 

[GEN2REV]

G2R: Check out my link and thread from this forum site for John 1:1:1 and 14. This a take of mine on this scripture.

The proof for the Preincarnation of Yahshua/Jesus is a fool's errand!

Post #46 I think, my memory is becoming fleeting.

Great Day

You seem to enjoy doing everything the long drawn out way. Not sure if that's out of pride, for people to listen to all you like to say, or if you're trying to reinforce the doctrine that you are pushing, within as many as possible, but the fact is that you could've told me all that in a sentence or two - to which I would still have responded that none of it contradicts, or disproves, Luke 24:27 which proves that Jesus existed all throughout the OT and worked, and spoke, through all the prophets.

You show up on the scene here in this thread, APAK, as if you're somebody new and have a totally new spin on things that will enlighten me and shake me from my foolish slumber, but you're nothing new or impressive at all and your points and doctrine don't hold a drop of water or prove to be a shred of evidence to the contrary of Jesus being God Almighty.

Under the light of Truth (Jesus Christ) you, and everyone who has ever attempted to silence Truth, melt and fade away without even the slightest lasting impression upon those who remain in alignment with the Truth of God's Word.

Don't take it personally. Nobody has ever, in all of history, stood a chance against the likes of Jesus Christ (God Almighty).

You are no different - and your position is kaput.

 

[ChristisGod]

Thank you for your welcome. Yes, they have gone extreme in their views. I'm sure your dad was part of a much larger group in his views. In protestant churches, I have never heard any minister come up with the kind of things you read on the internet regarding this subject. In fact, when I first ventured onto these kinds of websites at the tender age of 50, I was stunned to read all the comments about Christ being God Himself. In over 40 years of going to various protestant trinitarian churches I had never once heard it stated from the pulpit

That is strange because I have been in several different Protestant Churches in my 60 plus years and in everyone of them the Trinity and Deity of Christ was proclaimed. Lutheran, Dutch Reformed, Reformed Baptist, Christian Missionary Alliance, Non Denominational and Four Square.

So much for your assumption.

hope this helps !!!

 

[GEN2REV]

Mmmm. I might add that certainly our faith is centered upon who we believe Jesus is, as opposed to who we believe He is not.

Are you saying that believing Jesus is NOT God is a threat to one's Salvation?

If so, I agree.

 

[Raccoon1010]

So defend it, we don't silence anything related to this but strong condemnation of the trinity doctrine.

And you might want to reconsider your stance against monotheism. The Trinity is a monotheistic doctrine, despite what its detractors say...

I consider that God flows from a singular power, the Father. The Son and the Holy Ghost are part of God.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I agree with all you've said.

Just want to note that we can conform to the likeness of Jesus,,, but not of God, which, of course, includes the 2nd Person of the Godhead/Trinity.
We cannot be like God. Only like Jesus when He walked this earth.

God made man in His image. That means we have a mind, will, emotions, and our spirit; the essence of His invisible attributes that animals do not have. When we are born again, we begin to conform to His righteousness and we do have access to His power, knowledge, wisdom, healing. We begin to exhibit fruit of the Spirit. Obviously we can't speak things into existence but realize this, He also says if you have faith of a mustard seed, you can move mountains!
We are conformed to Jesus who is God. A Jesus who is not God is no different than any other prophet.
We cannot have a correct and healthy perslective and belief in Christ without His spiritual nature, which is that He is God. That was the whole point, God became flesh and dwelt among us, so that we can know God and be transformed into His likeness. Immanuel means God with us.

 

[Pearl]

We are conformed to Jesus who is God. A Jesus who is not God is no different than any other prophet.

A big Amen to that.

We cannot have a correct and healthy perspective and belief in Christ without His spiritual nature, which is that He is God. That was the whole point, God became flesh and dwelt among us, so that we can know God and be transformed into His likeness. Immanuel means God with us.

Well said brother.

 

[stephen64]

That is strange because I have been in several different Protestant Churches in my 60 plus years and in everyone of them the Trinity and Deity of Christ was proclaimed. Lutheran, Dutch Reformed, Reformed Baptist, Christian Missionary Alliance, Non Denominational and Four Square.

So much for your assumption.

hope this helps !!!

I told a fib, I forgot something. I did go to one church where a young assistant Pastor, fresh out of theological college stated Christ was God and everyone should believe it, apart from that, neither me, or others I have checked with have ever heard it stated from trinitarian pulpits, Christ is the one true God.
I can tell you, in all truth, I told two trinitarian ministers people on the internet kept repeating you can only be a Christian if you believe Christ is God himself. One shook his head and smiled, the other shook his head and laughed