The Coming Rapture

[The Light]

In keeping with this from my Post #581 above, regarding the seals and particularly the seventh seal in Revelation 7, I would submit the following:

What happens with the opening of the seventh seal? We expect the seventh in this series to be climactic. Seven symbolizes completeness; so with the seventh seal we should complete our travel through history. The phenomena accompanying the second coming occur with the sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-17). So now we wait for a description of the actual appearing of Christ (Mark 13:24-26), the final judgment and coming of the new heavens and the new earth... these things are actually seen in the seventh cycle, which is seen in Revelation 20:1-21:8, specifically from Revelation 20:7 ~ the fire coming down from Heaven is Christ in His return ~ and following, the final Judgment depicted in Revelation 20:11-15, and the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth in Revelation 21:1-8.

Here in Revelation 6, though, what actually takes place stops short of that (more on that in a moment) and seems to be an anticlimax: simply silence. Some interpreters have seen this silence as a blank, that is then filled with the contents of the trumpets (Revelation 8:2-11:19), but it is difficult to find such a use of silence in ancient literature, nor does it fit the tempo of Revelation, in which, again, Revelation 6:12-17 has just depicted the Second Coming. Rather, the trumpets begin another cycle looking back over times earlier than those of Revelation 6:12-17. The silence indicates that heaven stands in awe at the presence of God (as in Habakkuk 2:20 and Zephaniah 1:7). God appears. His awesome appearance is the central reality. To what I said a moment ago about the "stopping short," at this early point, the seer is not given a fuller picture either describing God or the accompanying events of final judgment and re-creation. This reserve maintains the reader’s interest for later cycles of judgment.

I don't follow what you believe exactly.

The 6th seal is the second coming, on that we seem to agree. But Jesus does not come the earth at the 6th seal. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb. This is the great multitude that is seen in heaven which is the two folds that are joined into one-fold. Meanwhile the 7th seal is opened which contains the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials of Gods wrath. At the end of wrath, Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives.

* * * * *

Turning back to the discussion up to this point, there are not "two harvests."

Sure, there are. The fig tree has two harvests.

There is a grain harvest and a fruit harvest.

There are two folds that become one-fold.

There is but one, understood properly in two different senses, that the harvest is happening now, in that more and more people are coming to Christ ~ both Jew and Gentile ~ and after the close of this age when Jesus returns and finally gathers His own to Him... so, both now and not yet. Again, regarding Hosea, as I said to @The Light in Post #576, instead of seeing "two different harvests" in Hosea 9, no harvest is actually in view, but rather God's absolute love for Israel. I submit again that we should see it pointing to how God sees all His Israel, despite its unfaithfulness, even despite its idolatry and whoredom... its "consecrating itself to the thing of shame," its "becoming detestable." Hosea ends with a plea ~ in Hosea 14 ~ to "return, O Israel, to the LORD your God." And God says, "I will heal their apostasy; I will love them freely, for My anger has turned from them. I will be like the dew to Israel; he shall blossom like the lily; he shall take root like the trees of Lebanon; his shoots shall spread out; his beauty shall be like the olive, and his fragrance like Lebanon. They shall return and dwell beneath My shadow; they shall flourish like the grain; they shall blossom like the vine; their fame shall be like the wine of Lebanon. O Ephraim, what have I to do with idols? It is I who answer and look after you. I am like an evergreen cypress; from Me comes your fruit." THIS is what Hosea is about.

Right. God loves Israel. But in Hosea 9 they are found like grapes in the wilderness. The served Baalpeor. They will no longer be the first harvest which is the grain harvest at the end of summer. They will miss the summer harvest and become the fall fruit harvest.

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

They will become jealous of the Gentiles because they will realize that Jesus is Lord and salvation has come to the Gentiles.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Each man in his order............first fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.

Jesus Himself is the firstfruits, so you have the order wrong. They that are Christ's are all believers from all-time.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ Himself is the firstfruits. Of who? Those who have fallen asleep. The dead in Christ, in other words. This passage is talking about being bodily resurrected unto bodily immortality. Christ's bodily resurrection unto bodily immortality was the first. Next in order are those who belong to Him at His second coming.

 

[ewq1938]

The seals are not in order.

I know.

The seventh seal happens before the seals are opened.

No, there is no "happening" because the events are just like how they were in Matthew 24, just descriptions and prophecies of future events. The only happenings are within the trumpets.

It is a figment of a whim of what is to come when 4th seal happens at the very end. And don't forget about the 6th vial that was poured out in WW I.

I believe it is JW doctrine that speaks of WW1 as being related to the vials. That is bad doctrine and is not true. None of the vials have poured because they pour at the 7th trump.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I know.

He was being sarcastic. You really believe that the events described by the seals don't happen in chronological order? If so, then you apparently think they are numbered for no reason and you can make the text say whatever you want it to say. Do you think the trumpets are not all in order, too? Do you think that the vials are not all in order, too?

 

[PinSeeker]

I don't follow what you believe exactly.

I understand. And that's kind of what I was getting at, although... it's not about me, of course.

The 6th seal is the second coming, on that we seem to agree.

Right...

But Jesus does not come the earth at the 6th seal. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

And why do you believe this, The Light? What scriptural support would you use for this statement? I think I know the answer to that, but I would submit to you that you are not understanding the general structure of John's Revelation, as I have said. I would offer this:

There are seven visions given to John, seven cycles of judgment, each leading up to the Second Coming. The cycles parallel ~ are concurrent to ~ one another. All cover the same period leading up to the second coming. But each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. Moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself. A final, eighth vision shows the new Jerusalem, the consummate state on the other side of the Second Coming. Specifically regarding the first cycle, again, at the end of Revelation 6, God has appeared and the Lamb is present and ready to execute the final Judgment, and we come to the end of this cycle of judgments in Revelation 8:1 with heaven's silence, and this vision stops short of the rest of the events at the end (the final Judgment itself, the sending away of unbelievers, then coming of the New Heaven and New Earth, and the wedding feast of the Lamb), which are all saved for later visions, the later cycles of judgments, namely the sixth and seventh, which are found, respectively, in Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20-21. And again, the final Judgment and the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth are not actually seen until the last of the cycles, the seventh, specifically in Revelation 20:11-15 (the final Judgment) and Revelation 21:1-8 (the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth). Here is the resulting outline (with emphasis on the end of the first cycle and the beginning of the second cycle):

• Cycle 1: 7 seals 4:1-8:1
• Cycle 2: 7 trumpets 8:2-11:19
• Cycle 3: symbolic figures and the harvest 12:1-14:20
• Cycle 4: 7 bowls 15:1-16:21
• Cycle 5: judgment of Babylon 17:1-19:10
• Cycle 6: white horse judgment 19:11-21
• Cycle 7: white throne judgment 20:1-21:8
• The 8th and culminating act: new Jerusalem 21:9-22:5

As I said in the post you are responding to here, God's awesome appearance is the central reality at the end of Revelation 6, and the Lamb (Jesus, of course), is present and ready to execute the final Judgment. I agree with you concerning the great multitude, which we see in Revelation 7, but I would submit that they are standing at that point in front of Jesus, Who is seated and ready to execute the final Judgment. At this early point in Revelation (chapter 6-8:1), John is not given a fuller picture either describing God or the accompanying events of final judgment and re-creation. This reserve maintains the reader’s interest for later cycles of judgment. And here we come to the end of this cycle of judgments, which ends in Revelation 8:1 with the silence. So, reiterating... sorry... this is where it stops short of the rest of the events at the end, the final Judgment itself, the sending away of unbelievers, then coming of the New Heaven and New Earth, and... the wedding feast of the Lamb... all of which is saved for later visions, the later cycles of judgments, namely the sixth and seventh, which are found, respectively, in Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20-21. And again, the final Judgment and the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth are not actually seen until the last of the cycles, specifically in Revelation 20:11-15 (the final Judgment) and Revelation 21:1-8 (the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth). The second parallel/concurrent cycle starts in Revelation 8:2 and concludes in Revelation 8:19, where God’s temple in heaven is opened, and in the same way as the first cycle stopped short, so the second cycle does also.

Grace and peace to you, The Light.

 

[The Light]

I know.


No, there is no "happening" because the events are just like how they were in Matthew 24, just descriptions and prophecies of future events. The only happenings are within the trumpets.


I believe it is JW doctrine that speaks of WW1 as being related to the vials. That is bad doctrine and is not true. None of the vials have poured because they pour at the 7th trump.

I can't help but laugh brother. I have heard so much unscriptural nonsense on this board that I wanted to throw out my own nonsense.

That fact that you bought it even though I said this...................."It is a figment of a whim of what is to come when 4th seal happens at the very end." proves my point.

The seals are in order BTW or God would have not put an order to it.

 

[The Light]

He was being sarcastic. You really believe that the events described by the seals don't happen in chronological order? If so, then you apparently think they are numbered for no reason and you can make the text say whatever you want it to say. Do you think the trumpets are not all in order, too? Do you think that the vials are not all in order, too?

Yes, I was being sarcastic. And as you said, they have numbers for a reason.

 

[The Light]

I understand. And that's kind of what I was getting at, although... it's not about me, of course.


Right...


And why do you believe this, The Light? What scriptural support would you use for this statement? I think I know the answer to that,

A plethora of scripture of which this is a small part.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 shows that Jesus sends His angels to gather elect form heaven and earth at the 6th seal. This is a rapture and is not Armageddon at the end of wrath.

There is a great multitude, some of which come out of great tribulation in Revelation 7. They are the two folds that have become one fold. The great multitude is in heaven during the wrath of God at the marriage supper and will return with the armies of heaven in Revelation 19 for Armageddon.

• Cycle 1: 7 seals 4:1-8:1
• Cycle 2: 7 trumpets 8:2-11:19
• Cycle 3: symbolic figures and the harvest 12:1-14:20
• Cycle 4: 7 bowls 15:1-16:21
• Cycle 5: judgment of Babylon 17:1-19:10
• Cycle 6: white horse judgment 19:11-21
• Cycle 7: white throne judgment 20:1-21:8
• The 8th and culminating act: new Jerusalem 21:9-22:5

As I said in the post you are responding to here, God's awesome appearance is the central reality at the end of Revelation 6, and the Lamb (Jesus, of course), is present and ready to execute the final Judgment. I agree with you concerning the great multitude, which we see in Revelation 7, but I would submit that they are standing at that point in front of Jesus, Who is seated and ready to execute the final Judgment. At this early point in Revelation (chapter 6-8:1), John is not given a fuller picture either describing God or the accompanying events of final judgment and re-creation. This reserve maintains the reader’s interest for later cycles of judgment. And here we come to the end of this cycle of judgments, which ends in Revelation 8:1 with the silence. So, reiterating... sorry... this is where it stops short of the rest of the events at the end, the final Judgment itself, the sending away of unbelievers, then coming of the New Heaven and New Earth, and... the wedding feast of the Lamb... all of which is saved for later visions, the later cycles of judgments, namely the sixth and seventh, which are found, respectively, in Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20-21. And again, the final Judgment and the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth are not actually seen until the last of the cycles, specifically in Revelation 20:11-15 (the final Judgment) and Revelation 21:1-8 (the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth). The second parallel/concurrent cycle starts in Revelation 8:2 and concludes in Revelation 8:19, where God’s temple in heaven is opened, and in the same way as the first cycle stopped short, so the second cycle does also.

Grace and peace to you, The Light.

Pretty hard for me to follow what you said.

The 7 seals happen in order.
The 1st 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24.
The 5th seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24.
The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24..........the Second Coming.........All eyes see the coming of the Lord, but Jesus does not come to the earth. The angels gather the elect from heaven and earth and all return to heaven.
The 7th seal is the one year wrath of God. The 7th seal contains the 7 trumpets and 7 vials. The first trumpet and first vial occur before the 2nd trumpet and 2nd vial..............etc. etc. etc.

 

[PinSeeker]

A plethora of scripture of which this is a small part.

<smile>

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 shows that Jesus sends His angels to gather elect form heaven and earth at the 6th seal. This is a rapture and is not Armageddon at the end of wrath.

Okay...

There is a great multitude, some of which come out of great tribulation in Revelation 7.

Yes, as the stars of heaven, as the grains of sand on the seashore, sure.

They are the two folds that have become one fold.

Do you think that the first half of Revelation 7 (vv.1-8) is "one fold" and the second half (vv.9-17) is a second? I disagree with that, and the notion that there are two folds. Jesus says, "I have other sheep that are not of this fold," yes, but to understand that as there being a second, separate fold is incorrect.

The great multitude is in heaven during the wrath of God at the marriage supper and will return with the armies of heaven in Revelation 19 for Armageddon.

Ugh. Yes, we're never going to agree on this. Just very succinctly, the great multitude is God's elect, His Israel, all those who are in Christ, the congregation of the righteous, and therefore will be on Jesus's right in the final Judgment, depicted most clearly in Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15.

Regarding Armageddon and Revelation 16... <smile> Those who serve the beast respond not only with greater hatred toward God as His wrath is poured out but also with greater hatred of His people. When the Euphrates is dried up so that enemies from the east can gather, the forces opposed to God assemble “at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.” In Hebrew, “Armageddon” means “Mount of Megiddo” (as you probably know), but Megiddo is actually a plain located northeast of Jerusalem where some important Old Testament battles took place and where many Jews expected the final war between God and the forces of evil to occur (2 Chronicles 35:22–27; Zechariah 12:11). John (the writer of Revelation, of course) well knows that Megiddo is not a mountain; he is using language symbolically not to tell us where the last battle will take place but to give a picture of the conflict to come at the end of the current age. The use of images from the exodus plagues and other symbolic language such as “Armageddon” or spirits that resemble frogs show us that Revelation 16 is conveying the surety of God’s judgment and the futility of resistance to the Lord, for sure, but is not necessarily providing an exact picture of what will happen at the final day. We do not have to know all the logistical details, but we do know the Lord’s judgment is sure, and we can take comfort in that. And this is John's intention in writing his Revelation; he is very clear in saying (in Revelation 1:3) that all who read, hear, and keep the words and what is written in his prophesy are and will be blessed, for the time is near. This was true in that day, and it is true now.

Pretty hard for me to follow what you said.

Not really; its just a much different way of looking at it than you currently do. Maybe it is "pretty hard" in the sense that you just don't want to...

The 7 seals happen in order.
The 1st 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24.
The 5th seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24.
The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24..........the Second Coming.........All eyes see the coming of the Lord, but Jesus does not come to the earth. The angels gather the elect from heaven and earth and all return to heaven.

I generally agree to this point. <smile> The only clarification I would make is that the first four seals are filled with trial and tribulation also. Which... maybe you agree with...

The 7th seal is the one year wrath of God. The 7th seal contains the 7 trumpets and 7 vials. The first trumpet and first vial occur before the 2nd trumpet and 2nd vial..............etc. etc. etc.

Disagree. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

Do you think that the first half of Revelation 7 (vv.1-8) is "one fold"

Absolutely not. Rev 7:1-8 is the first fruits of the second fold.

and the second half (vv.9-17) is a second?

Revelation 7: 9-12 is the great multitude which consists of both folds. Revelation 7:13-17 talks of the second fold that comes out of great tribulation.

I disagree with that, and the notion that there are two folds.

I disagree with what you said also, but there are two folds because scripture says there are two folds in John 40

Jesus says, "I have other sheep that are not of this fold," yes, but to understand that as there being a second, separate fold is incorrect.

Not hardly. There are other sheep not of the fold which is the Church that currently believe. That means two folds.

Ugh. Yes, we're never going to agree on this.

That's your error, not mine.

Just very succinctly, the great multitude is God's elect, His Israel, all those who are in Christ, the congregation of the righteous, and therefore will be on Jesus's right in the final Judgment, depicted most clearly in Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11-15.

Revelation 20:11-15 contains more than the great multitude. How do you not understand this. The great multitude contains two folds of believers in Christ. Rev 20-11-15 contains all the righteous.

 

[PinSeeker]

Absolutely not. Rev 7:1-8 is the first fruits of the second fold.

Well, I'm glad know that you don't see the folks spoken of in Revelation 7:1-8 as the first fold and those spoken of in Revelation 7:9-17 as a second fold, but... <smile>

Revelation 7: 9-12 is the great multitude which consists of both folds. Revelation 7:13-17 talks of the second fold that comes out of great tribulation.

All of Revelation 7 speaks of one group of folks, but the two "halves" speak of two different aspects of that one group. It's all a great multitude, but:

• verses 1-8 are about the true Jewish heritage ~ true not in the sense of ethnicity but in the sense that they are God's true Jews, His Israel, by His Spirit, as Paul speaks of the Jews of God in Romans 2:28-29
• verses 9-17 are about the sheer number of that same group of people... they are an innumerable multitude, and their completeness, their fullness; together, they are God's full household, His Israel

I disagree with what you said also, but there are two folds because scripture says there are two folds in John 40

No idea what you're talking about here; there are only 21 chapters in John's gospel. But only one, as can clearly be seen in John 10... see below.

Not hardly.

This has got to be some kind of double-negative, I guess... <smile> I'm... just hackin' atcha here... <smile>

There are other sheep not of the fold which is the Church that currently believe. That means two folds.

Yeah, disagree. Jesus says in John 10:16 (and I quote), "I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice." Unmistakably, He's talking about bringing in these other sheep into this fold. the fold of which He, Jesus, is the Good Shepherd. There is no other "fold." And then He goes on to say in the same breath (quoting again), "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30). So again, there are not "two folds," but for now as well as then, surely, there are sheep which are Jesus's that are not yet of the one fold, His fold, which by definition is His flock of sheep, of which He is the Good Shepherd.

That's your error, not mine.

<chuckles>

Revelation 20:11-15 contains more than the great multitude.

Right. Everyone is there. Jesus has separated them into two groups, many on Jesus's right (Matthew 25:33-40, the wheat, His sheep; those for whom the Judgment goes well), and many on His left (Matthew 25:41-46, tares, the goats; those for whom the Judgment goes... poorly). All have come out of their tombs, some having been resurrected to eternal life and the others to the resurrection of judgment (John 5:28-29). All the dead both great and small (believers, Revelation 20:12) and the dead given up by the sea and the dead given up by Death and Hades (unbelievers, Revelation 20:13).

How do you not understand this.

Ah, well, I do. <smile>

The great multitude contains two folds of believers in Christ...

No, one fold, His fold, His flock of sheep, and these are the ones on His right in the final Judgment. But there are many on His left, and those are analogous to the folks mentioned in Revelation 20:13 specifically. The former will stand in the judgment, but the latter will not (Psalm 1).

. Rev 20-11-15 contains all the righteous.

Right, but the unrighteous also, until... Revelation 20:15, when they are "thrown into the lake of fire." <shudder> They "go away into eternal punishment" (Matythew 25:46). <shudder>

Grace and peace to you, The Light.

 

[ewq1938]

I can't help but laugh brother. I have heard so much unscriptural nonsense on this board that I wanted to throw out my own nonsense.

That fact that you bought it even though I said this...................."It is a figment of a whim of what is to come when 4th seal happens at the very end." proves my point.

The seals are in order BTW or God would have not put an order to it.

The seals are not in chronological order and they only show what is coming, not events that happen when each is opened.

 

[The Light]

The seals are not in chronological order and they only show what is coming, not events that happen when each is opened.

1. The seals are in chronological order.
2. The events happen when the seals are opened.

In your opinion what is the order of the 7 seals?

 

[The Light]

Well, I'm glad know that you don't see the folks spoken of in Revelation 7:1-8 as the first fold and those spoken of in Revelation 7:9-17 as a second fold, but... <smile>


All of Revelation 7 speaks of one group of folks, but the two "halves" speak of two different aspects of that one group. It's all a great multitude, but:

• verses 1-8 are about the true Jewish heritage ~ true not in the sense of ethnicity but in the sense that they are God's true Jews, His Israel, by His Spirit, as Paul speaks of the Jews of God in Romans 2:28-29
• verses 9-17 are about the sheer number of that same group of people... they are an innumerable multitude, and their completeness, their fullness; together, they are God's full household, His Israel

I'm going to have to go with God on this. There are two folds. The Gentiles will be the first fold as we know Jesus as Lord and He knows us. Then God will turn His attention to His Chosen and part of Israel will have its blindness removed. That begins with 144,000 first fruits that are redeemed from the earth.

No idea what you're talking about here; there are only 21 chapters in John's gospel. But only one, as can clearly be seen in John 10... see below.

Typo. John 10 not John 40.................and I think you know that based on the content of my post.

Yeah, disagree. Jesus says in John 10:16 (and I quote), "I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice." Unmistakably, He's talking about bringing in these other sheep into this fold. the fold of which He, Jesus, is the Good Shepherd. There is no other "fold."

LOL. So there are other sheep NOT OF THIS FOLD. Who are the sheep in this fold? They are the ones He knows, and we know Him.

This fold is Gentiles. When this fold comes in, blindness will be removed from part of Israel. Then they will know that Jesus is Lord. Jesus must bring this fold in also. This fold begins with 144,000 first fruits that are redeemed from the earth. The fold is brought in at the 6th seal.

Romans 11
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And then He goes on to say in the same breath (quoting again), "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one" (John 10:27-30). So again, there are not "two folds," but for now as well as then, surely, there are sheep which are Jesus's that are not yet of the one fold, His fold, which by definition is His flock of sheep, of which He is the Good Shepherd.

Yeah. So many want to skip to the finale without recognizing what happens before the finale. Two folds happen. The Church is the first fold which will be raptured before the great tribulation. Those of the 12 tribes across the earth will be the second fold that is raptured at the 6th seal, before the wrath of God. Both folds make up the great multitude.

Right. Everyone is there. Jesus has separated them into two groups, many on Jesus's right (Matthew 25:33-40, the wheat, His sheep; those for whom the Judgment goes well), and many on His left (Matthew 25:41-46, tares, the goats; those for whom the Judgment goes... poorly). All have come out of their tombs, some having been resurrected to eternal life and the others to the resurrection of judgment (John 5:28-29). All the dead both great and small (believers, Revelation 20:12) and the dead given up by the sea and the dead given up by Death and Hades (unbelievers, Revelation 20:13).

You missed quite a bit.

I guess you forgot the Dead in Christ rise first. Then the living in Christ.

Then you missed that MANY that sleep in the dust of the earth shall be raised. And the alive that are believers will also be raptured when the days of the great tribulation are cut short.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

These events...........two folds................happen before ALL the dead that remain in the ground are raised.

No, one fold, His fold, His flock of sheep, and these are the ones on His right in the final Judgment. But there are many on His left, and those are analogous to the folks mentioned in Revelation 20:13 specifically. The former will stand in the judgment, but the latter will not (Psalm 1).

Ok. You can jump to end if it makes you feel better. I prefer to understand the things that happen before the end.

 

[PinSeeker]

I'm going to have to go with God on this.

LOL. Yeah, fair enough; me, too. <smile>

There are two folds. The Gentiles will be the first fold as we know Jesus as Lord and He knows us. Then God will turn His attention to His Chosen and part of Israel will have its blindness removed. That begins with 144,000 first fruits that are redeemed from the earth.

Wait... I thought you were going with God... <smile>

Yeah. So many want to skip to the finale without recognizing what happens before the finale.

<eye roll>

You missed quite a bit.

Only what dispensationalists have mistakenly read into scripture.

I guess you forgot the Dead in Christ rise first. Then the living in Christ.

No, I didn't "forget" anything... <smile> As Jesus says, "an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29).

Then you missed...

...nothing.

...the alive that are believers will also be raptured when the days of the great tribulation are cut short.

There will be no "rapture." Those who are alive on that great day will certainly go out to meet Him and join Him in His triumphant return, and then, in short order, the final defeat of Satan, the resurrection of all (many to eternal life, the others to judgment), the final Judgment, and the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth will occur. His return will certainly be a glorious, rapturous event. The only ones "removed," in the end, will be the unrepentant, who will depart ~ obediently, actually ~ into eternal punishment... outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth... submersed in God's judgment, the "lake of fire," as it were; this is the second death. <shudder>

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

These events...........two folds................happen before ALL the dead that remain in the ground are raised.

Ugh. <smile> So you think that right now, a) there are many who now sleep in the dust of the earth (and some will awake to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt), and b) "all the dead" remain in the ground waiting to be raised, too, and those are the two folds? Goodness gracious. I mean, is that what you're saying??? Surely not. Jesus is saying in John 5:28-29 exactly the same thing that Daniel wrote in Daniel 12:2. In John 10, Jesus is clearly talking about all His sheep. As he says there, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." There are not two folds, but one. We are all one fold, one flock of sheep, with one Shepherd. We are all one in Christ Jesus.

Ok. You can jump to end if it makes you feel better.

Not even sure what that means... LOL!

I prefer to understand the things that happen before the end.

Well that's great, but... <smile> I mean, making stuff up is... bad. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

There will be no "rapture." Those who are alive on that great day will certainly go out to meet Him and join Him in His triumphant return, and then, in short order, the final defeat of Satan, the resurrection of all (many to eternal life, the others to judgment), the final Judgment, and the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth will occur. His return will certainly be a glorious, rapturous event.

I guess it's possible to make these conclusions..........if you only cherry pick and read half the Bible.

The only ones "removed," in the end, will be the unrepentant, who will depart ~ obediently, actually ~ into eternal punishment... outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth... submersed in God's judgment, the "lake of fire," as it were; this is the second death. <shudder>

Oh, jumping right to the end and leaving out the great multitude that has been raptured to heaven...........removed from the earth in two folds.

Ugh. <smile> So you think that right now, a) there are many who now sleep in the dust of the earth (and some will awake to everlasting life and some to shame and everlasting contempt), and b) "all the dead" remain in the ground waiting to be raised, too, and those are the two folds? Goodness gracious. I mean, is that what you're saying??? Surely not.

I think I was pretty clear.

I guess you forgot the Dead in Christ rise first. Then the living in Christ.---------------First Fold.

Then you missed that MANY that sleep in the dust of the earth shall be raised. And the alive that are believers will also be raptured when the days of the great tribulation are cut short. ----------------------Second Fold. The people of Daniel.

Daniel 12
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

After the two folds are in heaven as the great multitude, there are still dead in the ground. All the dead that remain in the ground will be raised after the wrath of God.

Jesus is saying in John 5:28-29 exactly the same thing that Daniel wrote in Daniel 12:2.

Nope. Daniel 12:2 is talking about the PEOPLE OF DANIEL. Daniels people......are raised. They are part of all people that sleep in the ground. Daniels people are raised with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.


Daniel 12
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

In John 10, Jesus is clearly talking about all His sheep. As he says there, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." There are not two folds, but one. We are all one fold, one flock of sheep, with one Shepherd. We are all one in Christ Jesus.

LOL. I realize that you cannot agree with the Word God that says there are two folds. It is imperative that you fail recognize these two folds which are Gentile and Jew as it would conflict with your doctrine. The two folds become one fold. You want to skip that because it proves your doctrine is in error. It's ok. Go ahead and jump right to the end and leave out half the Bible.

 

[PinSeeker]

I guess it's possible to make these conclusions..........if you only cherry pick and read half the Bible.

I'm reading the same Bible you are. The difference between you and me is that I don't add things to it.

Oh, jumping right to the end and leaving out the great multitude that has been raptured to heaven...

There is no "rapture"... that's one of the additions I'm speaking of. Charles Darby did a lot of damage... There were some good things that came out of the Enlightenment, but the things he did were certainly not among them. But... the Word of God stands/endures forever; thank the Lord for that.

I think I was pretty clear.

You have been, yes. But clear is not always good... <smile>

I guess you forgot the Dead in Christ rise first. Then the living in Christ.---------------First Fold.

Then you missed that MANY that sleep in the dust of the earth shall be raised. And the alive that are believers will also be raptured when the days of the great tribulation are cut short. ----------------------Second Fold. The people of Daniel.

Nothing missed by me... Again, Jesus says ~ reiterating what Daniel says in Daniel 12:2 ~ "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29). There is an order here, yes, to this resurrection, the elect first and then the evil/unrepentant. But to see this as two folds is very much incorrect ~ and I'm perfectly fine with you calling that my opinion. And the same is true regarding any kind of "rapture"... there is no removal from tribulation, but rather deliverance through it, for those who are in Christ ~ believers, God's elect, for whom, yes, in those days of the final conflict, which will be far greater than anything seen up until then, will be cut short for their sake. And then the end will come.

Daniels people......are raised. They are part of all people that sleep in the ground. Daniels people are raised with the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

Hmmm... well I agree, in the greater sense. In the same sense as what Jesus says to His disciples (followers) He is also saying to all of us today, and in the same sense as what Paul says to the Christians in the various churches to whom he writes His letters are also to all of us today... so by extension, yes. In that greater sense, yes, Daniel's people are our people also, we are they and they are us. What Daniel says applies just as much today to us Christians as it did to his hearers centuries before Christ came. We are all one in Christ Jesus. So, sure... in the greater sense, absolutely.

I realize that you cannot agree with the Word God that says...

No, I cannot agree with what you say about the Word of God in that particular instance for reasons that I have been very clear on.

It is imperative that you fail recognize these two folds which are Gentile and Jew...

Ahh, Gentile and Jew! Just as I thought. Well... as if I haven't pointed these things out several times before now:

• "no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical... a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God" (Romans 2:28:29)
• "...a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved..." (Romans 11:25-26).
• "...we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members one of another" (Romans 12:5).
• "...in Christ Jesus (Gentiles) who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, Who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility... that He might create in Himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility... through Him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father... (Gentiles) are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the cornerstone, in Whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In Him (Gentiles) also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:19-22).
• "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise" (Galatians 3:28-29).
• "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days He has spoken to us by his Son, Whom He appointed the heir of all things, through Whom also He created the world" (Hebrews 1:1-2).

Again, certainly not an exhaustive list, but more than sufficient. But if you want to maintain in your mind that division, that wall hostility, as Paul calls it, that's been torn down by God... if you want to maintain that the two are still two and not one, as Paul says in multiple ways in multiple places (and the other New Testament writers do, too, of course... and Jesus)... well, you're certainly your own person...

as it would conflict with your doctrine.

Doctrine-Shmoctrine... God's Word it is what it is; it "stands/endures forever" (Isaiah, Peter). <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Traveler]

The rapture comes at the last seal but Jesus only returns to set up his kingdom after the vials of wrath.

The seals are not in order. The seventh seal happens before the seals are opened. It is a figment of a whim of what is to come when 4th seal happens at the very end. And don't forget about the 6th vial that was poured out in WW seal but Jesus only returns to establish his kingdom after the vials of wrath.

 

[The Light]

I'm reading the same Bible you are. The difference between you and me is that I don't add things to it.

And yet you can't produce anything I am adding, but I can produce plenty that you are leaving out.

There is no "rapture"... that's one of the additions I'm speaking of. Charles Darby did a lot of damage...

Darby was a man that believed that there would be a nation of Israel when there wasn't one for over 1700 years. Darby was correct.

Nothing missed by me... Again, Jesus says ~ reiterating what Daniel says in Daniel 12:2 ~ "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" (John 5:28-29). There is an order here, yes, to this resurrection, the elect first and then the evil/unrepentant.

Sorry. Daniel 12 is talking about MANY of the people that sleep in the dust of the earth shall be raised.

John 5 is talking about ALL that are still in the ground will come out.

Two completely separate events.

But to see this as two folds is very much incorrect ~ and I'm perfectly fine with you calling that my opinion.

I am not calling that two folds. When MANY that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake........this occurs at the 6th seal when Jesus comes to gather the elect from heaven and earth. Those gathered from the earth.......dead and alive are the second fold. Those gathered from heaven are the first fold that were taken to heaven at the pretrib rapture.

And the same is true regarding any kind of "rapture"... there is no removal from tribulation, but rather deliverance through it, for those who are in Christ ~ believers, God's elect, for whom, yes, in those days of the final conflict, which will be far greater than anything seen up until then, will be cut short for their sake. And then the end will come.

This is the rapture at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days. Then the wrath of God begins when the 7th seal is opened.

Again, certainly not an exhaustive list, but more than sufficient. But if you want to maintain in your mind that division, that wall hostility, as Paul calls it, that's been torn down by God... if you want to maintain that the two are still two and not one, as Paul says in multiple ways in multiple places (and the other New Testament writers do, too, of course... and Jesus)... well, you're certainly your own person...

There are two folds that become one fold. If you don't want to admit that FACT it just shows you are interested in doctrine and not truth.

 

[The Light]

The rapture comes at the last seal but Jesus only returns to set up his kingdom after the vials of wrath.

If you have even the slightest ability of deductive reasoning, you should be able to conclude that Jesus comes for A rapture at the 6th seal. The sixth seal is not after the vials of wrath which are in the 7th seal...............so you are in error.

Matthew 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.