The Coming Rapture

[The Light]

In keeping with this from my Post #581 above, regarding the seals and particularly the seventh seal in Revelation 7, I would submit the following:

What happens with the opening of the seventh seal? We expect the seventh in this series to be climactic. Seven symbolizes completeness; so with the seventh seal we should complete our travel through history. The phenomena accompanying the second coming occur with the sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-17). So now we wait for a description of the actual appearing of Christ (Mark 13:24-26), the final judgment and coming of the new heavens and the new earth... these things are actually seen in the seventh cycle, which is seen in Revelation 20:1-21:8, specifically from Revelation 20:7 ~ the fire coming down from Heaven is Christ in His return ~ and following, the final Judgment depicted in Revelation 20:11-15, and the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth in Revelation 21:1-8.

Here in Revelation 6, though, what actually takes place stops short of that (more on that in a moment) and seems to be an anticlimax: simply silence. Some interpreters have seen this silence as a blank, that is then filled with the contents of the trumpets (Revelation 8:2-11:19), but it is difficult to find such a use of silence in ancient literature, nor does it fit the tempo of Revelation, in which, again, Revelation 6:12-17 has just depicted the Second Coming. Rather, the trumpets begin another cycle looking back over times earlier than those of Revelation 6:12-17. The silence indicates that heaven stands in awe at the presence of God (as in Habakkuk 2:20 and Zephaniah 1:7). God appears. His awesome appearance is the central reality. To what I said a moment ago about the "stopping short," at this early point, the seer is not given a fuller picture either describing God or the accompanying events of final judgment and re-creation. This reserve maintains the reader’s interest for later cycles of judgment.

I don't follow what you believe exactly.

The 6th seal is the second coming, on that we seem to agree. But Jesus does not come the earth at the 6th seal. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb. This is the great multitude that is seen in heaven which is the two folds that are joined into one-fold. Meanwhile the 7th seal is opened which contains the 7 trumpets and the 7 vials of Gods wrath. At the end of wrath, Jesus sets His feet on the Mount of Olives.

* * * * *

Turning back to the discussion up to this point, there are not "two harvests."

Sure, there are. The fig tree has two harvests.

There is a grain harvest and a fruit harvest.

There are two folds that become one-fold.

There is but one, understood properly in two different senses, that the harvest is happening now, in that more and more people are coming to Christ ~ both Jew and Gentile ~ and after the close of this age when Jesus returns and finally gathers His own to Him... so, both now and not yet. Again, regarding Hosea, as I said to @The Light in Post #576, instead of seeing "two different harvests" in Hosea 9, no harvest is actually in view, but rather God's absolute love for Israel. I submit again that we should see it pointing to how God sees all His Israel, despite its unfaithfulness, even despite its idolatry and whoredom... its "consecrating itself to the thing of shame," its "becoming detestable." Hosea ends with a plea ~ in Hosea 14 ~ to "return, O Israel, to the LORD your God." And God says, "I will heal their apostasy; I will love them freely, for My anger has turned from them. I will be like the dew to Israel; he shall blossom like the lily; he shall take root like the trees of Lebanon; his shoots shall spread out; his beauty shall be like the olive, and his fragrance like Lebanon. They shall return and dwell beneath My shadow; they shall flourish like the grain; they shall blossom like the vine; their fame shall be like the wine of Lebanon. O Ephraim, what have I to do with idols? It is I who answer and look after you. I am like an evergreen cypress; from Me comes your fruit." THIS is what Hosea is about.

Right. God loves Israel. But in Hosea 9 they are found like grapes in the wilderness. The served Baalpeor. They will no longer be the first harvest which is the grain harvest at the end of summer. They will miss the summer harvest and become the fall fruit harvest.

Jeremiah 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

They will become jealous of the Gentiles because they will realize that Jesus is Lord and salvation has come to the Gentiles.

Romans 11
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Each man in his order............first fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.

Jesus Himself is the firstfruits, so you have the order wrong. They that are Christ's are all believers from all-time.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Christ Himself is the firstfruits. Of who? Those who have fallen asleep. The dead in Christ, in other words. This passage is talking about being bodily resurrected unto bodily immortality. Christ's bodily resurrection unto bodily immortality was the first. Next in order are those who belong to Him at His second coming.

 

[ewq1938]

The seals are not in order.

I know.

The seventh seal happens before the seals are opened.

No, there is no "happening" because the events are just like how they were in Matthew 24, just descriptions and prophecies of future events. The only happenings are within the trumpets.

It is a figment of a whim of what is to come when 4th seal happens at the very end. And don't forget about the 6th vial that was poured out in WW I.

I believe it is JW doctrine that speaks of WW1 as being related to the vials. That is bad doctrine and is not true. None of the vials have poured because they pour at the 7th trump.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I know.

He was being sarcastic. You really believe that the events described by the seals don't happen in chronological order? If so, then you apparently think they are numbered for no reason and you can make the text say whatever you want it to say. Do you think the trumpets are not all in order, too? Do you think that the vials are not all in order, too?

 

[PinSeeker]

I don't follow what you believe exactly.

I understand. And that's kind of what I was getting at, although... it's not about me, of course.

The 6th seal is the second coming, on that we seem to agree.

Right...

But Jesus does not come the earth at the 6th seal. He remains in the clouds and sends His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth.

And why do you believe this, The Light? What scriptural support would you use for this statement? I think I know the answer to that, but I would submit to you that you are not understanding the general structure of John's Revelation, as I have said. I would offer this:

There are seven visions given to John, seven cycles of judgment, each leading up to the Second Coming. The cycles parallel ~ are concurrent to ~ one another. All cover the same period leading up to the second coming. But each cycle does so from its own distinct vantage point. Moreover, later cycles concentrate more and more on the most intense phases of conflict and on the Second Coming itself. A final, eighth vision shows the new Jerusalem, the consummate state on the other side of the Second Coming. Specifically regarding the first cycle, again, at the end of Revelation 6, God has appeared and the Lamb is present and ready to execute the final Judgment, and we come to the end of this cycle of judgments in Revelation 8:1 with heaven's silence, and this vision stops short of the rest of the events at the end (the final Judgment itself, the sending away of unbelievers, then coming of the New Heaven and New Earth, and the wedding feast of the Lamb), which are all saved for later visions, the later cycles of judgments, namely the sixth and seventh, which are found, respectively, in Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20-21. And again, the final Judgment and the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth are not actually seen until the last of the cycles, the seventh, specifically in Revelation 20:11-15 (the final Judgment) and Revelation 21:1-8 (the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth). Here is the resulting outline (with emphasis on the end of the first cycle and the beginning of the second cycle):

• Cycle 1: 7 seals 4:1-8:1
• Cycle 2: 7 trumpets 8:2-11:19
• Cycle 3: symbolic figures and the harvest 12:1-14:20
• Cycle 4: 7 bowls 15:1-16:21
• Cycle 5: judgment of Babylon 17:1-19:10
• Cycle 6: white horse judgment 19:11-21
• Cycle 7: white throne judgment 20:1-21:8
• The 8th and culminating act: new Jerusalem 21:9-22:5

As I said in the post you are responding to here, God's awesome appearance is the central reality at the end of Revelation 6, and the Lamb (Jesus, of course), is present and ready to execute the final Judgment. I agree with you concerning the great multitude, which we see in Revelation 7, but I would submit that they are standing at that point in front of Jesus, Who is seated and ready to execute the final Judgment. At this early point in Revelation (chapter 6-8:1), John is not given a fuller picture either describing God or the accompanying events of final judgment and re-creation. This reserve maintains the reader’s interest for later cycles of judgment. And here we come to the end of this cycle of judgments, which ends in Revelation 8:1 with the silence. So, reiterating... sorry... this is where it stops short of the rest of the events at the end, the final Judgment itself, the sending away of unbelievers, then coming of the New Heaven and New Earth, and... the wedding feast of the Lamb... all of which is saved for later visions, the later cycles of judgments, namely the sixth and seventh, which are found, respectively, in Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20-21. And again, the final Judgment and the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth are not actually seen until the last of the cycles, specifically in Revelation 20:11-15 (the final Judgment) and Revelation 21:1-8 (the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth). The second parallel/concurrent cycle starts in Revelation 8:2 and concludes in Revelation 8:19, where God’s temple in heaven is opened, and in the same way as the first cycle stopped short, so the second cycle does also.

Grace and peace to you, The Light.

 

[The Light]

I know.


No, there is no "happening" because the events are just like how they were in Matthew 24, just descriptions and prophecies of future events. The only happenings are within the trumpets.


I believe it is JW doctrine that speaks of WW1 as being related to the vials. That is bad doctrine and is not true. None of the vials have poured because they pour at the 7th trump.

I can't help but laugh brother. I have heard so much unscriptural nonsense on this board that I wanted to throw out my own nonsense.

That fact that you bought it even though I said this...................."It is a figment of a whim of what is to come when 4th seal happens at the very end." proves my point.

The seals are in order BTW or God would have not put an order to it.

 

[The Light]

He was being sarcastic. You really believe that the events described by the seals don't happen in chronological order? If so, then you apparently think they are numbered for no reason and you can make the text say whatever you want it to say. Do you think the trumpets are not all in order, too? Do you think that the vials are not all in order, too?

Yes, I was being sarcastic. And as you said, they have numbers for a reason.

 

[The Light]

I understand. And that's kind of what I was getting at, although... it's not about me, of course.


Right...


And why do you believe this, The Light? What scriptural support would you use for this statement? I think I know the answer to that,

A plethora of scripture of which this is a small part.

The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 shows that Jesus sends His angels to gather elect form heaven and earth at the 6th seal. This is a rapture and is not Armageddon at the end of wrath.

There is a great multitude, some of which come out of great tribulation in Revelation 7. They are the two folds that have become one fold. The great multitude is in heaven during the wrath of God at the marriage supper and will return with the armies of heaven in Revelation 19 for Armageddon.

• Cycle 1: 7 seals 4:1-8:1
• Cycle 2: 7 trumpets 8:2-11:19
• Cycle 3: symbolic figures and the harvest 12:1-14:20
• Cycle 4: 7 bowls 15:1-16:21
• Cycle 5: judgment of Babylon 17:1-19:10
• Cycle 6: white horse judgment 19:11-21
• Cycle 7: white throne judgment 20:1-21:8
• The 8th and culminating act: new Jerusalem 21:9-22:5

As I said in the post you are responding to here, God's awesome appearance is the central reality at the end of Revelation 6, and the Lamb (Jesus, of course), is present and ready to execute the final Judgment. I agree with you concerning the great multitude, which we see in Revelation 7, but I would submit that they are standing at that point in front of Jesus, Who is seated and ready to execute the final Judgment. At this early point in Revelation (chapter 6-8:1), John is not given a fuller picture either describing God or the accompanying events of final judgment and re-creation. This reserve maintains the reader’s interest for later cycles of judgment. And here we come to the end of this cycle of judgments, which ends in Revelation 8:1 with the silence. So, reiterating... sorry... this is where it stops short of the rest of the events at the end, the final Judgment itself, the sending away of unbelievers, then coming of the New Heaven and New Earth, and... the wedding feast of the Lamb... all of which is saved for later visions, the later cycles of judgments, namely the sixth and seventh, which are found, respectively, in Revelation 19:11-21 and Revelation 20-21. And again, the final Judgment and the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth are not actually seen until the last of the cycles, specifically in Revelation 20:11-15 (the final Judgment) and Revelation 21:1-8 (the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth). The second parallel/concurrent cycle starts in Revelation 8:2 and concludes in Revelation 8:19, where God’s temple in heaven is opened, and in the same way as the first cycle stopped short, so the second cycle does also.

Grace and peace to you, The Light.

Pretty hard for me to follow what you said.

The 7 seals happen in order.
The 1st 4 seals are the beginning of sorrows in Matthew 24.
The 5th seal is the great tribulation of Matthew 24.
The 6th seal is the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24..........the Second Coming.........All eyes see the coming of the Lord, but Jesus does not come to the earth. The angels gather the elect from heaven and earth and all return to heaven.
The 7th seal is the one year wrath of God. The 7th seal contains the 7 trumpets and 7 vials. The first trumpet and first vial occur before the 2nd trumpet and 2nd vial..............etc. etc. etc.