The Coming Rapture

[PinSeeker]

Okay, finishing up; sorry...

The first fold happens before the great tribulation...

We are in the period of tribulation now. And there will be a time of great tribulation at the end of the age.

Paul says in Romans not to be ignorant of the fact that blindness is not removed from part of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. FACT.......not opinion.

Well, right, but see above.

Again, lack of understanding.

Again, this is your opinion only. I believe the lack of understanding to be yours, but really, it's okay. It's okay. <smile>

The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation which does not begin until the abomination of desolation is set up. FACT......not opinion.

Sure, absolutely, but... See above.

You have lots of opinions that you are unable to provide scriptural support for...

In your opinion. I've offered many throughout this conversation, and spoken to your citations also, so to even say this is... well, quite ridiculous. And in that vein, without going into detail (except for the following), I would speak to the very same scriptures you cite above, particularly Matthew 24 (as I have) and all the passages in Revelation.

Regarding Revelation in particular, I would just briefly say that to sequence all of Revelation chapter by chapter ~ and possibly... not sure if you do this with it or not, but I think so... make it out to be all in the future is a terrible misunderstanding of the visions given to John in that great prophecy. But that is in keeping with how you see these "two separate, one-completely-subsequent-to-the-other harvests," which is not the case. Consistency is not your problem... <smile> But no, what John sees, seven times over, is the unfolding of history up to Christ's return, with each vision progressively focusing more and more on the final outcome, Christ's return itself.

The only thing that either of us can really say about each other is, "you use the scriptural support you use wrongly."

It's time to quit believing what you have been taught and get in the scripture and learn.

Back atcha. Every word here, right back atcha. But... it's okay. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

In the same sense that you and I both have been saved ~ we have been born again of the Spirit ~ and are being saved ~ being kept in faith in the power of the Spirit and will not be lost but raised up on the last day (John 6:39), so is the harvest happening now ~ people are coming to Christ, one by one, over the course of this age ~ and will happen at the end of the age. This is the simultaneous "now and not yet" of the Gospel.

Our tribulation and the wrath of God are two completely different things, The Light.

Agreed.

Through tribulation, as James says, our faith is being tested, so we can "count it all joy when (we) meet trials of various kinds, for (we) know that the testing of (our) faith produces steadfastness..." which will "have its full effect, that (we) may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing" (James 1:2-4).

The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation which will be over before the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

The wrath of God we have fled and have our rest in Christ. And this wrath of God will play out in the final Judgment, which will be exacted upon... unbelievers... in the form of the second death ("...the wages of sin is death" ~ Romans 6:23a, "...those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" ~ John 5:29), where they will dwell under/in this judgment of God for eternity. <shudder> As Paul say, "Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), and "God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ..." (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

The wrath of God is the 7th seal which contains the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of wrath.

 

[The Light]

I showed you the truth and you deny it. That's on you. You have no excuse for rejecting the truth that you have been shown. Where did Jesus say anything about the first fold being part of the first harvest and the other fold being part of the other harvest? Nowhere. You are just making things up while I am backing up my view with scripture. Jesus talked about the first fold and other fold in terms of who are His sheep, not in terms of two harvests.

It's okay. I know that you don't understand there are two harvests. So how could you possibly understand what the two folds are. If you think that a small number of Jews, the elect, that understood Jesus is the Messiah represented a fold of sheep, you are sadly mistaken. The rest of the sheep are blind and will not have their blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

This is to provoke the Jews to jealously, when they realize that they missed the first harvest which is the summer harvest.

Jeremaih 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The first fold that were His sheep were the Jewish believers because He came to save them first before having the gospel preached to His other fold which are Gentile believers. And He made both folds into one fold, which is the church. As Paul said He made both "one new man" and "one body" in "the household of God" (Ephesians 2:11-22).


LOL! Absolutely not. You are delusional. I know that I am correct. 100%.

Two folds become one fold at the 6th seal. This is the great multitude that is in heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb.

 

[The Light]

So, your understanding of what it means for Israel to be blinded in part is flawed because you falsely think Israel being blinded in part means no one who has been part of the Israel that is blinded has been saved for the past almost 2,000 years.

Excellent false conclusion of what I believe. Also well done setting up that straw man and knocking it down.

Romans 11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

So your understanding is that a small number of Jews that see Jesus is the Messiah represents one of the two folds. That's an awful SMALL fold.

 

[ewq1938]

Agreed.


The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation which will be over before the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

Jesus does not come at the 6th seal. He comes at the last of 7 trumpets. The 6th seal describes what happens when the 7th trump sounds.

 

[Davy]

Jesus does not come at the 6th seal. He comes at the last of 7 trumpets. The 6th seal describes what happens when the 7th trump sounds.

That what man's false pre-trib rapture teaches, trying to make excuses for how the 6th Seal links to the same... timing as the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial Scripture.

Satan comes on 666 (6th Seal-first part; 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, and 6th Vial per Rev.16).

 

[Traveler]

The way I see it we are still in the seals, these originate from our world system, the Trumpets and the vials of wrath are Gods reply, they are still to come and yes The end of this age is very close now.

 

[The Light]

Jesus does not come at the 6th seal. He comes at the last of 7 trumpets. The 6th seal describes what happens when the 7th trump sounds.

The seals are not in order. The seventh seal happens before the seals are opened. It is a figment of a whim of what is to come when 4th seal happens at the very end. And don't forget about the 6th vial that was poured out in WW I.

 

[The Light]

That what man's false pre-trib rapture teaches, trying to make excuses for how the 6th Seal links to the same... timing as the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial Scripture.

Satan comes on 666 (6th Seal-first part; 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, and 6th Vial per Rev.16).

LOL. Your blindness has no limits.

You just babble away with no thought or logic or understanding. The blind leading the blind.

Can you provide any post made before today in the history of this forum that says that the pre tribulation rapture occurs at the 6th seal?

The sixth seal happens immediately after the tribulation, so how could the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal be a pretrib rapture.

I await the crickets of your response.

 

[The Light]

Satan comes on 666 (6th Seal-first part; 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, and 6th Vial per Rev.16).

That's Jesus that comes at the 6th seal, not Satan.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's okay. I know that you don't understand there are two harvests. So how could you possibly understand what the two folds are.

It's okay. I know that you don't understand that Jesus first brought the gospel to His first fold, the Jews, with those who believe being the sheep in His first fold. And that it was not yet revealed that He had another fold that would also become His sheep which are the Gentile believers that He brought together with Jewish believers in one fold with His shed blood.

If you think that a small number of Jews, the elect, that understood Jesus is the Messiah represented a fold of sheep, you are sadly mistaken.

You are so very sadly mistaken. What was the evidence that Paul provided that God had not cast away the Israelites who He foreknew? He proved by showing that a remnant of Israelites were saved (Romans 11:1-5). He didn't have to show that they were all saved in order to prove that God had not cast them away, but that's the way you think. His fold was that remnant of Israelite believers that He later joined with Gentile believers into one fold. One new man. One body. Yes, it is you who is sadly mistaken. Without a doubt.

The rest of the sheep are blind and will not have their blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

This is to provoke the Jews to jealously, when they realize that they missed the first harvest which is the summer harvest.

You fail to acknowledge that some of those who were blinded in Paul's day had their blindness removed back then. Why do you ignore that and act as if none have their blindness removed until a future time?

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Paul indicated that the Israelites who were blinded in his day did not fall beyond recovery and remain blinded the rest of their lives. Not at all! Their blindness was for the purpose of bringing salvation to the Gentiles who, in turn, would make the blind Israelites envious and want to be saved as well. And he said he wanted to lead some of them to salvation.

But, you contradict Paul by saying that none of the Israelites who have been blinded for the past almost 2,000 years have had their blindness removed, but one day all of them will. That completely contradicts what Paul was saying.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Excellent false conclusion of what I believe. Also well done setting up that straw man and knocking it down.

Romans 11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

So your understanding is that a small number of Jews that see Jesus is the Messiah represents one of the two folds. That's an awful SMALL fold.

Paul referenced that small fold to prove that God had not cast away and reject the Israelites that He foreknew. So, the size of the fold does not matter.

I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

You say I made a straw man argument, but let's see if that's really the case. Do you believe that any of the Israelites who were blinded in Paul's day had their blindness removed?

 

[The Light]

It's okay. I know what you don't understand that Jesus first brought the gospel to His first fold, the Jews, with those who believe being the sheep in His first fold. And that it was not yet revealed that He had another fold that would also become His sheep which are the Gentile believers that He brought together with Jewish believers in one fold with His shed blood.

The Word says that Jesus wanted to gather the Jews, AND THEY WOULD NOT.

Matthew 23
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

You are so very sadly mistaken. What was the evidence that Paul provided that God had not cast away the Israelites who He foreknew? He proved by showing that a remnant of Israelites were saved (Romans 11:1-5). He didn't have to show that they were all saved in order to prove that God had not cast them away, but that's the way you think. His fold was that remnant of Israelite believers that He later joined with Gentile believers into one fold. One new man. One body. Yes, it is you who is sadly mistaken. Without a doubt.

Of course God has not cast the Jews away. The Great Tribulation is all about the Jews, as the Church will already be in heaven before the great tribulation.

And that small, tiny little group of Jews is nothing that will compare to what happens after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. HOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULLNESS...........referring to the Jews.

Romans 11

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

You fail to acknowledge that some of those who were blinded in Paul's day had their blindness removed back then. Why do you ignore that and act as if none have their blindness removed until a future time?

The Word does not say that those Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah had their blindness removed. It says they see that Jesus is the Messiah and the rest were blinded.

Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The Word does not support what you are saying. It would be nice if you could ever change what you believe when what you believe does not agree with the Word of God.

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Paul indicated that the Israelites who were blinded in his day did not fall beyond recovery and remain blinded the rest of their lives. Not at all! Their blindness was for the purpose of bringing salvation to the Gentiles who, in turn, would make the blind Israelites envious and want to be saved as well. And he said he wanted to lead some of them to salvation.

But, you contradict Paul by saying that none of the Israelites who have been blinded for the past almost 2,000 years have had their blindness removed, but one day all of them will. That completely contradicts what Paul was saying.

Again. You have drawn a false conclusion of what I believe. Please provide any post that I have made that says none of the Jews in the past 2000 years have had their blindness removed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Word says that Jesus wanted to gather the Jews, AND THEY WOULD NOT.

Matthew 23
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

What is your point? Why do you only tell one part of the story? That was not all Jews. They was a remnant of Jews who did believe and Paul used that as proof that God did not cast away His people who He foreknew (Romans 11:1-5).

Of course God has not cast the Jews away.

And the evidence Paul gave for that was the remnant of Jews who were saved in his day, right? That was the proof he gave that God did not cast away the Israelites he foreknew in Romans 11:1-5.

The Great Tribulation is all about the Jews, as the Church will already be in heaven before the great tribulation.

Wrong. This is not taught anywhere in scripture. But, what does this have to do with what we're talking about in terms of God not casting the Jews away?

And that small, tiny little group of Jews is nothing that will compare to what happens after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. HOW MUCH MORE THEIR FULLNESS...........referring to the Jews.

Romans 11

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

That is not at all what Paul was saying. He was saying their stumbling helped bring salvation to the Gentiles which would in turn bring salvation to them because of being provoked to jealousy. And many of them have been saved for the past almost 2,000 years since because of being jealous of the salvation that came to the Gentiles. There were 3,000 of them saved on the day of Pentecost alone. You are trying to make it as if it means nothing that some of them have been saved over the past almost 2,000 years.

The Word does not say that those Jews who believed that Jesus was the Messiah had their blindness removed. It says they see that Jesus is the Messiah and the rest were blinded.

What? Obviously, those who believed in Jesus weren't blind. Why would I say that they had their blindness removed? I didn't. I'm saying some of the rest who were blinded in Paul's day later had their blindness removed. So, you agree with that then?

Romans 11
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

The Word does not support what you are saying.

It 100% supports what I'm saying, but you clearly didn't even understand what I was saying, which is nothing new.

It would be nice if you could ever change what you believe when what you believe does not agree with the Word of God.

I would be happy to do that if that was actually the case. But, you were the one who needs to do that. You are completely ignoring what Paul said in verse 14 about hoping to save some of those who were blinded.

Again. You have drawn a false conclusion of what I believe. Please provide any post that I have made that says none of the Jews in the past 2000 years have had their blindness removed.

You come across that way because your entire focus is on blindness being removed at some point in the future. Why do you act as if the blindness that has already been removed from many Jews over the past almost 2,000 years means nothing?

 

[The Light]

Paul referenced that small fold to prove that God had not cast away and reject the Israelites that He foreknew. So, the size of the fold does not matter.

I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

You say I made a straw man argument, but let's see if that's really the case. Do you believe that any of the Israelites who were blinded in Paul's day had their blindness removed?

I believe that the election never had blindness to begin with. They saw that Jesus was the Messiah and the rest were blinded.

Did any of the Jews that were blinded have their blindness removed in Paul's day? Yes, of course.

Paul preached to both Jew and Gentile. In Acts 18 we see he became angry and said from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles. Paul departed and entered Justus house where Crispus the chief ruler of the synagogue believed on the Lord with all his house.

Acts 18
After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;

2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them.

3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

5 And when Silas and Timotheus were come from Macedonia, Paul was pressed in the spirit, and testified to the Jews that Jesus was Christ.

6 And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean; from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles.

7 And he departed thence, and entered into a certain man's house, named Justus, one that worshipped God, whose house joined hard to the synagogue.

8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the rapture before the great tribulation, how much more will the fullness of the Jews be.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I believe that the election never had blindness to begin with. They saw that Jesus was the Messiah and the rest were blinded.

Right. I'm not saying otherwise. Are you actually reading what I'm saying or not? If you think I'm saying the election was blinded then you are not reading what I'm saying carefully at all. I am saying that some of the rest who were blinded ended up being saved because that is what Paul indicated in Romans 11:14.

Did any of the Jews that were blinded have their blindness removed in Paul's day? Yes, of course.

So, why do you act as if that means nothing?

After the fullness of the Gentiles comes in at the rapture before the great tribulation, how much more will the fullness of the Jews be.

That is not at all what Paul was saying in Romans 11. He was saying that Israel would continue to be blinded in part like it was in his day with some of those who were blinded becoming saved all the way until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. He did not say that all of them would have their blindness removed at that point.

 

[rebuilder 454]

And yet your opinion does not have any scriptural support. The first fold are the Gentiles as blindness is not removed from part of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.........Romans 11

Additionally, the Jews went to Baalpeor and it was determined that the fathers of the Jews would not be the first fruits of the fig tree AT HER FIRST TIME. Hebrews 9:10



The fact that part of Israel is in blindness until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, blows a hole in your argument. Additionally there are two folds which are two harvests that you seem unable to find in scripture.

You always want to jump to the one fold without recognizing the events that take place when each fold occurs. There are two harvests, two raptures.......two folds. The first fold happens before the great tribulation in an hour that your think not and the second fold happens at the 6th seal immediately after the tribulation of those days.

It doesn't matter if you understand this. Those are the scriptural facts.


They that are Christs at His coming will be the first fold. Then other sheep not of this fold, them must He also bring.........TO HIS FATHERS HOUSE.

The two folds become one fold at the gathering from heaven and earth which occurs at the 6th seal. All go to heaven for the marriage supper as the great multitude.


Incorrect. The folds do not occur until Jesus comes for a harvest. He comes first for His bride the Church in an hour that you think not. He returns for the Chosen bride at the 6th seal which is the gathering from heaven and earth. All return to heaven for the marriage supper as one fold............the great multitude.


This is not a harvest or fold or rapture.


Nope sorry. The fig tree has TWO HARVESTS.

Additionally, there is a grain harvest which complete at the end of summer and there is a fruit harvest which occurs in the fall.


Paul says in Romans not to be ignorant of the fact that blindness is not removed from part of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. FACT.......not opinion.


Again, lack of understanding. The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation which does not begin until the abomination of desolation is set up. FACT......not opinion.

You have lots of opinions that you are unable to provide scriptural support for. It's time to quit believing what you have been taught and get in the scripture and learn.


Grace and peace to you........................

The experts have not convinced you there Is no such thing as a rapture or millineum,and the church is replacing the Jews?????

Surely a drunken Sean Connery trumps that bible.

Time wasters and game players big time.

 

[PinSeeker]

Regarding Revelation in particular, I would just briefly say that to sequence all of Revelation chapter by chapter ~ and possibly... not sure if you do this with it or not, but I think so... make it out to be all in the future is a terrible misunderstanding of the visions given to John in that great prophecy. But that is in keeping with how you see these "two separate, one-completely-subsequent-to-the-other harvests," which is not the case. Consistency is not your problem... <smile> But no, what John sees, seven times over, is the unfolding of history up to Christ's return, with each vision progressively focusing more and more on the final outcome, Christ's return itself.

In keeping with this from my Post #581 above, regarding the seals and particularly the seventh seal in Revelation 7, I would submit the following:

What happens with the opening of the seventh seal? We expect the seventh in this series to be climactic. Seven symbolizes completeness; so with the seventh seal we should complete our travel through history. The phenomena accompanying the second coming occur with the sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-17). So now we wait for a description of the actual appearing of Christ (Mark 13:24-26), the final judgment and coming of the new heavens and the new earth... these things are actually seen in the seventh cycle, which is seen in Revelation 20:1-21:8, specifically from Revelation 20:7 ~ the fire coming down from Heaven is Christ in His return ~ and following, the final Judgment depicted in Revelation 20:11-15, and the coming of the New Heaven and New Earth in Revelation 21:1-8.

Here in Revelation 6, though, what actually takes place stops short of that (more on that in a moment) and seems to be an anticlimax: simply silence. Some interpreters have seen this silence as a blank, that is then filled with the contents of the trumpets (Revelation 8:2-11:19), but it is difficult to find such a use of silence in ancient literature, nor does it fit the tempo of Revelation, in which, again, Revelation 6:12-17 has just depicted the Second Coming. Rather, the trumpets begin another cycle looking back over times earlier than those of Revelation 6:12-17. The silence indicates that heaven stands in awe at the presence of God (as in Habakkuk 2:20 and Zephaniah 1:7). God appears. His awesome appearance is the central reality. To what I said a moment ago about the "stopping short," at this early point, the seer is not given a fuller picture either describing God or the accompanying events of final judgment and re-creation. This reserve maintains the reader’s interest for later cycles of judgment.

* * * * *

Turning back to the discussion up to this point, there are not "two harvests." There is but one, understood properly in two different senses, that the harvest is happening now, in that more and more people are coming to Christ ~ both Jew and Gentile ~ and after the close of this age when Jesus returns and finally gathers His own to Him... so, both now and not yet. Again, regarding Hosea, as I said to @The Light in Post #576, instead of seeing "two different harvests" in Hosea 9, no harvest is actually in view, but rather God's absolute love for Israel. I submit again that we should see it pointing to how God sees all His Israel, despite its unfaithfulness, even despite its idolatry and whoredom... its "consecrating itself to the thing of shame," its "becoming detestable." Hosea ends with a plea ~ in Hosea 14 ~ to "return, O Israel, to the LORD your God." And God says, "I will heal their apostasy; I will love them freely, for My anger has turned from them. I will be like the dew to Israel; he shall blossom like the lily; he shall take root like the trees of Lebanon; his shoots shall spread out; his beauty shall be like the olive, and his fragrance like Lebanon. They shall return and dwell beneath My shadow; they shall flourish like the grain; they shall blossom like the vine; their fame shall be like the wine of Lebanon. O Ephraim, what have I to do with idols? It is I who answer and look after you. I am like an evergreen cypress; from Me comes your fruit." THIS is what Hosea is about.

Grace and peace to all.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The experts have not convinced you there Is no such thing as a rapture

No one says this.

or millineum

Or this.

,and the church is replacing the Jews?????

Or this.

Surely a drunken Sean Connery trumps that bible.

Were you drunk when you made the false claims that you made above?

Time wasters and game players big time.

Says the time waster and game player.

 

[The Light]

Right. I'm not saying otherwise. Are you actually reading what I'm saying or not? If you think I'm saying the election was blinded then you are not reading what I'm saying carefully at all. I am saying that some of the rest who were blinded ended up being saved because that is what Paul indicated in Romans 11:14.


So, why do you act as if that means nothing?


That is not at all what Paul was saying in Romans 11. He was saying that Israel would continue to be blinded in part like it was in his day with some of those who were blinded becoming saved all the way until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. He did not say that all of them would have their blindness removed at that point.

Each man in his order............first fruits and then they that are Christs at His coming.

Why do you think there are 144,000 first fruits from 12 tribes of Israel?