The Coming Rapture

[PinSeeker]

Okay, finishing up; sorry...

The first fold happens before the great tribulation...

We are in the period of tribulation now. And there will be a time of great tribulation at the end of the age.

Paul says in Romans not to be ignorant of the fact that blindness is not removed from part of Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. FACT.......not opinion.

Well, right, but see above.

Again, lack of understanding.

Again, this is your opinion only. I believe the lack of understanding to be yours, but really, it's okay. It's okay. <smile>

The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation which does not begin until the abomination of desolation is set up. FACT......not opinion.

Sure, absolutely, but... See above.

You have lots of opinions that you are unable to provide scriptural support for...

In your opinion. I've offered many throughout this conversation, and spoken to your citations also, so to even say this is... well, quite ridiculous. And in that vein, without going into detail (except for the following), I would speak to the very same scriptures you cite above, particularly Matthew 24 (as I have) and all the passages in Revelation.

Regarding Revelation in particular, I would just briefly say that to sequence all of Revelation chapter by chapter ~ and possibly... not sure if you do this with it or not, but I think so... make it out to be all in the future is a terrible misunderstanding of the visions given to John in that great prophecy. But that is in keeping with how you see these "two separate, one-completely-subsequent-to-the-other harvests," which is not the case. Consistency is not your problem... <smile> But no, what John sees, seven times over, is the unfolding of history up to Christ's return, with each vision progressively focusing more and more on the final outcome, Christ's return itself.

The only thing that either of us can really say about each other is, "you use the scriptural support you use wrongly."

It's time to quit believing what you have been taught and get in the scripture and learn.

Back atcha. Every word here, right back atcha. But... it's okay. <smile>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[The Light]

In the same sense that you and I both have been saved ~ we have been born again of the Spirit ~ and are being saved ~ being kept in faith in the power of the Spirit and will not be lost but raised up on the last day (John 6:39), so is the harvest happening now ~ people are coming to Christ, one by one, over the course of this age ~ and will happen at the end of the age. This is the simultaneous "now and not yet" of the Gospel.

Our tribulation and the wrath of God are two completely different things, The Light.

Agreed.

Through tribulation, as James says, our faith is being tested, so we can "count it all joy when (we) meet trials of various kinds, for (we) know that the testing of (our) faith produces steadfastness..." which will "have its full effect, that (we) may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing" (James 1:2-4).

The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation which will be over before the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

The wrath of God we have fled and have our rest in Christ. And this wrath of God will play out in the final Judgment, which will be exacted upon... unbelievers... in the form of the second death ("...the wages of sin is death" ~ Romans 6:23a, "...those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment" ~ John 5:29), where they will dwell under/in this judgment of God for eternity. <shudder> As Paul say, "Jesus delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thessalonians 1:10), and "God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ..." (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

The wrath of God is the 7th seal which contains the 7 trumpets and 7 vials of wrath.

 

[The Light]

I showed you the truth and you deny it. That's on you. You have no excuse for rejecting the truth that you have been shown. Where did Jesus say anything about the first fold being part of the first harvest and the other fold being part of the other harvest? Nowhere. You are just making things up while I am backing up my view with scripture. Jesus talked about the first fold and other fold in terms of who are His sheep, not in terms of two harvests.

It's okay. I know that you don't understand there are two harvests. So how could you possibly understand what the two folds are. If you think that a small number of Jews, the elect, that understood Jesus is the Messiah represented a fold of sheep, you are sadly mistaken. The rest of the sheep are blind and will not have their blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

This is to provoke the Jews to jealously, when they realize that they missed the first harvest which is the summer harvest.

Jeremaih 8
20 The harvest is past, the summer is ended, and we are not saved.

The first fold that were His sheep were the Jewish believers because He came to save them first before having the gospel preached to His other fold which are Gentile believers. And He made both folds into one fold, which is the church. As Paul said He made both "one new man" and "one body" in "the household of God" (Ephesians 2:11-22).


LOL! Absolutely not. You are delusional. I know that I am correct. 100%.

Two folds become one fold at the 6th seal. This is the great multitude that is in heaven for the marriage supper of the Lamb.

 

[The Light]

So, your understanding of what it means for Israel to be blinded in part is flawed because you falsely think Israel being blinded in part means no one who has been part of the Israel that is blinded has been saved for the past almost 2,000 years.

Excellent false conclusion of what I believe. Also well done setting up that straw man and knocking it down.

Romans 11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

So your understanding is that a small number of Jews that see Jesus is the Messiah represents one of the two folds. That's an awful SMALL fold.

 

[ewq1938]

Agreed.


The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation which will be over before the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal.

Jesus does not come at the 6th seal. He comes at the last of 7 trumpets. The 6th seal describes what happens when the 7th trump sounds.

 

[Davy]

Jesus does not come at the 6th seal. He comes at the last of 7 trumpets. The 6th seal describes what happens when the 7th trump sounds.

That what man's false pre-trib rapture teaches, trying to make excuses for how the 6th Seal links to the same... timing as the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial Scripture.

Satan comes on 666 (6th Seal-first part; 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, and 6th Vial per Rev.16).

 

[Traveler]

The way I see it we are still in the seals, these originate from our world system, the Trumpets and the vials of wrath are Gods reply, they are still to come and yes The end of this age is very close now.

 

[The Light]

Jesus does not come at the 6th seal. He comes at the last of 7 trumpets. The 6th seal describes what happens when the 7th trump sounds.

The seals are not in order. The seventh seal happens before the seals are opened. It is a figment of a whim of what is to come when 4th seal happens at the very end. And don't forget about the 6th vial that was poured out in WW I.

 

[The Light]

That what man's false pre-trib rapture teaches, trying to make excuses for how the 6th Seal links to the same... timing as the 7th Trumpet and 7th Vial Scripture.

Satan comes on 666 (6th Seal-first part; 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, and 6th Vial per Rev.16).

LOL. Your blindness has no limits.

You just babble away with no thought or logic or understanding. The blind leading the blind.

Can you provide any post made before today in the history of this forum that says that the pre tribulation rapture occurs at the 6th seal?

The sixth seal happens immediately after the tribulation, so how could the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal be a pretrib rapture.

I await the crickets of your response.

 

[The Light]

Satan comes on 666 (6th Seal-first part; 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period, and 6th Vial per Rev.16).

That's Jesus that comes at the 6th seal, not Satan.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It's okay. I know that you don't understand there are two harvests. So how could you possibly understand what the two folds are.

It's okay. I know what you don't understand that Jesus first brought the gospel to His first fold, the Jews, with those who believe being the sheep in His first fold. And that it was not yet revealed that He had another fold that would also become His sheep which are the Gentile believers that He brought together with Jewish believers in one fold with His shed blood.

If you think that a small number of Jews, the elect, that understood Jesus is the Messiah represented a fold of sheep, you are sadly mistaken.

You are so very sadly mistaken. What was the evidence that Paul provided that God had not cast away the Israelites who He foreknew? He proved by showing that a remnant of Israelites were saved (Romans 11:1-5). He didn't have to show that they were all saved in order to prove that God had not cast them away, but that's the way you think. His fold was that remnant of Israelite believers that He later joined with Gentile believers into one fold. One new man. One body. Yes, it is you who is sadly mistaken. Without a doubt.

The rest of the sheep are blind and will not have their blindness removed until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

This is to provoke the Jews to jealously, when they realize that they missed the first harvest which is the summer harvest.

You fail to acknowledge that some of those who were blinded in Paul's day had their blindness removed back then. Why do you ignore that and act as if none have their blindness removed until a future time?

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring! 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Paul indicated that the Israelites who were blinded in his day did not fall beyond recovery and remain blinded the rest of their lives. Not at all! Their blindness was for the purpose of bringing salvation to the Gentiles who, in turn, would make the blind Israelites envious and want to be saved as well. And he said he wanted to lead some of them to salvation.

But, you contradict Paul by saying that none of the Israelites who have been blinded for the past almost 2,000 years have had their blindness removed, but one day all of them will. That completely contradicts what Paul was saying.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Excellent false conclusion of what I believe. Also well done setting up that straw man and knocking it down.

Romans 11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.

9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

So your understanding is that a small number of Jews that see Jesus is the Messiah represents one of the two folds. That's an awful SMALL fold.

Paul referenced that small fold to prove that God had not cast away and reject the Israelites that He foreknew. So, the size of the fold does not matter.

I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? 4 And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.

You say I made a straw man argument, but let's see if that's really the case. Do you believe that any of the Israelites who were blinded in Paul's day had their blindness removed?