Reasons why the Jehovah’s Witness religion is false (Despite my love for them as human beings)

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Jude Thaddeus

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If only opinions were all that mattered.....people would all be more confused than they already are.

Let me give you a run down on what my sources tell me.

The very first Ecumenical Council of the Catholic Church (Nicaea in 325 C.E.) started a great controversy within the Church over the Trinity doctrine.
Not quite. The controversy was not within the Church, but Arians who contradicted what the Church had always believed. That's what Athanasius proved; that's why you don't like him.
Two groups of theologians were of such wide influence that they practically split Christianity into two camps, which were theological and political rivals for over two centuries. These were the ‘orthodox’ group led by Athanasius, an archdeacon of the church in Alexandria, and the Arians, (from Arius, a deacon in the same church). . . . The Athanasians were doctrinally trinitarians; the Arians were unitarians.”
The Arians were not unitarians, a 17th century offshoot of reformism.
The Arians held to “the doctrine that Christ the Son is subordinate to God the Father, and of different substance, because Christ was created by God and so came into being after God.”

The Trinitarians believed what their doctrine is defined as today......“the threefold personality of the one Divine Being,” in which ‘God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost’ are said to be of the same substance, coequal, and alike uncreated and omnipotent.”
They could not both be right....so what transpired is a matter of history.
Only one was right, the tradition of Arianism was non-existent.
In his book “The Development of Christian Doctrine”, 19th century Catholic Cardinal, John Henry Newman said that it is generally admitted that the Trinity teaching was a gradual development. He wrote that the creeds before Constantine’s time did not make any mention of it. “They make mention indeed of a Three; but that there is any mystery in the doctrine, that the Three are One, that They are coequal, coeternal, all increate, all omnipotent, all incomprehensible, is not stated, and never could be gathered from them.” (page 15)
What's wrong with that???
So there is an admission all by itself.....it doesn’t exist as a doctrine mentioned in Scripture.
That's not what Newman said. He said the Trinity doctrine was not explicit in the creeds before Constantine. No creeds were formulated before Constantine that I am aware of.
The doctrine did not exist before Constantine’s time. Don’t we have to ask why?
Because you lack faith in what was accepted in the first 3 centuries by the historic Church.
Constantine professed to be converted to Christianity, doubtless as much due to political factors as religious ones. It was therefore very disturbing to see this doctrinal division, which was a threat to the unity of his empire. So as Pontifex Maximus, that is, Chief Religious Ruler, he summoned the first Ecumenical Council at Nicaea in 325 C.E. This is a pagan Roman title and one that the pope carries to this day.
It is impossible to summon a council without the pope. Derailers don't work with me.
Although he had not as yet been baptized as a Christian, (something that he did only as he was dying) Constantine presided over this council to which only some 318 bishops came; with their attendants the gathering may have numbered between 1,500 and 2,000. Imagine! An unbaptized pagan Roman emperor determining “Christian” beliefs. He is said to have been a worshipper of Zeus all his life, whilst giving the impression that he had converted to Christianity. He was two faced.
At that time, Constantine was an Arian. He was baptized a Catholic on his death bed. He was present at the council, he did not preside over it. He made no contributions to the authoritive verdicts of the Council of Nicae. His name is not even mentioned in any of its canons. “The Catholic Church was created by the Emperor Constantine when he made Christianity the official religion of the Roman Empire.” Both of these claims are historically false. Although Constantine is often credited with being the first Christian emperor, he didn’t make Christianity the official religion.
This story, most famously told by Jehovah Witnesses and Fundamentalist Protestants, came out of their necessity to support their lie that there was an apostasy in the early Church. It is their way to explain how their reform and late arrival is justifiable.
continued...
 

Jude Thaddeus

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The ensuing years saw the two factions jockeying for supremacy as the issue continued to divide the church, often with violence and confrontation....especially from monastically trained monks who were not averse to resorting to violence to defend their trinitarian beliefs.
Demonize the monks who meticulously preserved the Scriptures and resorted to violence on their lunch breaks. :goodj:
Perhaps the severest blow against the Arians was delivered by Emperor Theodosius. By means of the official decrees of 391-392 C.E., he imposed Roman Catholic orthodoxy upon all “Christians” and deprived the Arians, as well as all pagans, of their houses of worship.
False. Theodosius didn't impose what most of the old Roman Empire had already accepted, and Arianism eventually fizzled out.
Says a historian: “The legal triumph of the church over heresy [Arianism] and paganism and its evolution from a persecuted sect to a persecuting state church were complete.” And the Inquisition gained it’s foundation for persecuting any who disputed State enforced orthodox beliefs.
Name the historian. The Inquisition is an emotional derailer. The Black Legend is a sick joke you uphold as truth.
Arianism gained ground again from the Germanic invasions from the North, but gradually the [Roman] Catholic Church succeeded in eliminating Arianism. In some instances this was achieved by military action that all but wiped out the Germanic element. This took place during the reign of Emperor Justinian, whose ambition it was to restore the Roman Empire to its former glory and who was notorious for his persecution, not only of the Arians, but also of the Jews and the Samaritans. He even forbade the Jews to read their Scriptures in Hebrew!
That's your opinion. Justinian notorious for his persecution? Scholarly documentation, please.
What Do We Need to Know about Emperor Justinian? < not a Catholic source.
History has a lot to say about the political activities of the Trinitarians and of the Arians down through the centuries, so one cannot help but be impressed with how accurately both Jesus and his apostles foretold what would happen to the Christian congregation.
As Jesus put in his parable..... “While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat.” And so it was that the field that was originally a wheat field became a weed patch. (Matt 13:25) While men were spiritually slumbering.
Jesus said He would be with us always, till the end of time. He didn't lie.
And, considering what greed and violence these displayed, one appreciates how accurately the apostle Paul foretold these events.... “I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness.”
Included among those packs of wolves were both Trinitarians and Arians, the former being the fiercer of the two! (Acts 20:29)
No, Paul was talking about the Gnostics who were trying to infiltrate the community. They "forbade marriage" to make them "enightened" because they believed the flesh is evil and not in accordance with Paul's teachings on marriage. They "forbade certain foods" not in accordance with Paul' teaching on fasting, but because they believed the food itself was evil. The full doctrine of the Trinity (which is a banned topic) took 4+ centuries to come into full bloom, and Paul was long dead by then.
And just to be clear.....JW’s are not Arians just because we reject the trinity.....we worship neither the “incomprehensible” God of the Trinitarians, nor the “unknown God” of Arius. We say, with the apostle Paul: “There is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are.” (1 Cor 8:6)

This is the “one God” that Christ himself worshipped...and still does, even in heaven. (Rev 3:12)
Paul never taught Modalism, or Sabellianism, a third century heresy.
History argues that they both were....Christendom is a product of the weeds.....no matter what they call themselves or which side of the trinitarian argument they stand on.....if we do not “know the only true God” AND “the one he sent”, then we do not know God at all. (John 17:3)

Acts 17: 22 So Paul, standing in the midst of the Areopagus, said: “Men of Athens, I perceive that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription: ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you...​
He got their attention without condemning them. That's what a good apologist does, like Scott Hahn.

History? You mean fashionable Modernism that attempts to re-write history that cannot withstand scrutiny. What makes Modernism so dangerous is that it destroys faith. It's the synthesis of all heresies. I contend that Charlie Russel was another one of many 18th century Modernists, or was heavily influenced by them. Same theories, same country (USA), in the same time frame with legions of post-enlightenment wack-jobs starting new churches.

if we do not “know the only true God” AND “the one he sent”, then we do not know God at all. (John 17:3)
Agreed.
 
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RedFan

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Most of what you say I agree with, JT. I;d push back on only two things: that Constantine was an Arian at the time of the Nicene Council (he wasn't) and that no council could be summoned without the pope (this one was).
 
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Jude Thaddeus

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Most of what you say I agree with, JT. I;d push back on only two things: that Constantine was an Arian at the time of the Nicene Council (he wasn't)
oops.
and that no council could be summoned without the pope (this one was).
Then why do you think Constantine went personally to Pope Sylvester? ; for tea and crumpets or to collaborate a council? The Pope was too sick to make the journey all the way to Nicae, so he sent 2 legates with his full authority. Neither them nor the Pope wrote the Nicene Creed, (accepted by 99% of all Christians today) so who did? And who ratified it???
 
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RedFan

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Then why do you think Constantine went personally to Pope Sylvester? ; for tea and crumpets or to collaborate a council? The Pope was too sick to make the journey all the way to Nicae, so he sent 2 legates with his full authority. Neither them nor the Pope wrote the Nicene Creed, (accepted by 99% of all Christians today) so who did? And who ratified it???
Well, ratification is a separate matter; Pope Sylvester, through his emissaries Victor and Vincentius, certainly signed on to the Creed and the rest of the canons adopted at Nicaea.

No doubt he had met Sylvester from time to time when both were in Rome, but Constantine decided to call the Council when he was already in Nicomedia, after his successful campaign to defeat Licinius -- and he did not return to Rome until well after the Nicene Council in 325. So consulting with Sylvester in advance of the Council was not a matter of a stroll down Capitoline Hill. Constantine never went personally to Sylvester to discuss collaborating the Council. That's just an apocryphal story.

As to who wrote the Creed, my best guess is a combination of Hosius (who had produced the anti-Arian statement of faith at the Synod of Antioch not long before), Alexander aided by Athanasius (who were the protagonists in the anti-Arian movement), and Marcellus of Ancyra (an anti-Arian stalwart).
 
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rebuilder 454

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Lol
Not when 2 in the same paragraph are called God and god--At both spots in the Greek lexicons the true God=Jehovah is called Ton Theon--the other 2 are called Theos=god small g when in the same paragraph with Ton Theon.= God--and yes many spots in NT has just Theos when the true God is spoken of alone as being God in the paragraph, because all know God is being spoken of. But when 2 beings are being called God and god in the same paragraph the true God is called Ton Theon. John 1:1 and 2 Cor 4:4= the only 2 spots in NT.
The trinity bible scholars know its fact. They say nothing. Why? Because billions of dollars would be lost yearly, all those religions would be proved false and 2 billion humans suing them for taking their money when they do know.

LOL
watchtower shell game.
Same word exactly used for Jehovah.
Watchtower impasse.
Busted by their own trickery.
Like I said ...yall be real careful not to step on your little god.
You got Jehovah as a "created being"...a " little god"
Thanks for the laugh watchtower.

...and you follow those clowns.
 

rebuilder 454

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All sons are created by their Father. There is one God, like here at Rev 1:1--A Revelation of Jesus Christ which God gave to him= 2 different beings, the giver is God, the receiver is Jesus--There is only one God-1 Cor 8:6--There is one God to all, the Father)-----not Father, son, and holy spirit.
No man creates a statue but he begets a son. So stop with the one-dimensional false analogies
 

Keiw

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Then prove it with scripture and reason, let's debate it. If you believe you have the Truth, then nothing I say can sway you. I only ask that as the Bible student you claim to be, you look at the evidence, not just discard it, because you have the Truth and there's no need to look at what I have to offer.
I studied Jesus teachings carefully. In every translation on Gods earth his teachings back the JW,s all the way. Israelite true God worship history back the JW,s all the way. There is no better proof.
 

Keiw

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Lol


LOL
watchtower shell game.
Same word exactly used for Jehovah.
Watchtower impasse.
Busted by their own trickery.
Like I said ...yall be real careful not to step on your little god.
You got Jehovah as a "created being"...a " little god"
Thanks for the laugh watchtower.

...and you follow those clowns.
At minimum 20 translations in history had a god at John 1:1----3 had was divine( Moffett, Goodspeed, and Schoenfield) 1 had was godlike.
In 1822 a Greek scholar, using the same Greek lexicons used down to this day, translated the NT, he compared Greek to English side by side to prove to the world a god is correct--New Test in Greek and English
The JW translation is correct. Facts of history prove it, the teachings of Jesus prove it. You should study Jesus teachings carefully, and pray to his Father to show you.
 

RedFan

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The JW translation is correct. Facts of history prove it, the teachings of Jesus prove it. You should study Jesus teachings carefully, and pray to his Father to show you.
Why then do so many Christians, outnumbering JWs a hundred to one, not see it the same way? Are we all blind? Stupid?
 
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rebuilder 454

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I studied Jesus teachings carefully. In every translation on Gods earth his teachings back the JW,s all the way. Israelite true God worship history back the JW,s all the way. There is no better proof.
Pure baloney.
Watchtower has God commanding created beings to worship a created being.
That alone blows a hole in the false religion you fallow so big you can sail a ship through it.
 

rebuilder 454

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1Cor 8:6--Paul telling all of creation who God is--show us a trinity. He warned first in verse 5 all other gods are false.
In Hebrew's 1 The Father calls the Son God.
And Commands created beings to worship the Son.
No amount of watchtower trickery can neuter Gods word.
Only works to gullible watchtower victims of their lies.
Thank You Jesus for your word.
The enemy of watchtower
 

Keiw

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Why then do so many Christians, outnumbering JWs a hundred to one, not see it the same way? Are we all blind? Stupid?
Jesus teaches--MANY have entered the broad and spacious path to destruction, FEW will find the road that leads off into life-----that is why.
Yes satan beat 99% living today centuries ago.
 

Keiw

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Pure baloney.
Watchtower has God commanding created beings to worship a created being.
That alone blows a hole in the false religion you fallow so big you can sail a ship through it.
No God does not have that. A mistranslated Greek word=Proskenaue, by Catholicism to fit false council teachings has worship being given to one who has a God-- It has 5 different meanings from Greek to English-1) worship to God--2) obeisance to a king--3)Honor to a judge, plus 2 others. Every bible writer knew 100% the Messiah has a God-Psalm 45:7) they know 100% God does not have a God, thus in reality put Obeisance to Gods appointed king. Catholicism=2Thess 2:3 screwed it all up to fit false council teachings. To Mislead by satans will. Jesus was never with Catholicism. The protestants fixed very little.
 

Keiw

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In Hebrew's 1 The Father calls the Son God.
And Commands created beings to worship the Son.
No amount of watchtower trickery can neuter Gods word.
Only works to gullible watchtower victims of their lies.
Thank You Jesus for your word.
The enemy of watchtower
Catholicism translating calls the son God, i explained worship to you.

Isaiah 40:26--God called-HE( not we)Isaiah 44:6--I am YHVH besides me( not we) there is no other God.--Gen 1:27--HE( not we) created--Prov 8: HE( not we) created--Col 1:15,16--things were created-THROUGH- Jesus( means another did the creating through Jesus)( Gods master worker( Prov 8:30) the one beside God during creating, he gives 100% credit to HE( God)-
 

RedFan

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You got me to thinking of something.
Nowhere in the bible is anyone corrected for not being a watchtower heretic.
Instead, all the early church was trinitarian.
As were those followers of Jesus in acts.
Nowhere was anyone "corrected" to follow watchtower doctrine I E denying Jesus.
Zero
You mean Binitarian, not Trinitarian, don't you?
 

Aunty Jane

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The controversy was not within the Church, but Arians who contradicted what the Church had always believed. That's what Athanasius proved; that's why you don't like him.
Since they were both deacons in the same church, how can you say that it didn’t split the church when some chose to follow Arius and others stuck to Athanasius? It’s a split that never really got healed.

The Orthodox Church to this day stands apart from Roman Catholicism....but it seems that a recent move by the pope to unite them will be difficult without compromise. Catholicism is a house divided, as is all of Christendom who retain her foundational beliefs. When God and his Christ look down from heaven what do they see?...one cohesive and united Christian faith?...or just the opposite.
The Arians were not unitarians, a 17th century offshoot of reformism.
Arians remained Catholic.....it was a split.
Only one was right, the tradition of Arianism was non-existent.
Arianism argued with an adopted belief that was not found anywhere in the Bible....the Catholic church itself admits that the doctrine is not found, in any clear statement of Scripture. So where did it come from if neither Christ nor his apostles ever taught it? The answer is obvious.
you lack faith in what was accepted in the first 3 centuries by the historic Church.
Since Jesus foretold that an apostasy would take place, and that the apostles would restrain its influence, we can see that the last apostle John was to write his last letters and his Revelation towards the end of the first century.....when he died, there was no longer any restraint, and the weeds did what weeds do best...they took over the whole field from the second century onward, gradually deviating from the truth by adopting all manner of man-made teachings and traditions.....and who was going to stop them? Not God, because this was all part of prophesy.
It is impossible to summon a council without the pope. Derailers don't work with me.
Show me a “pope” appointed by Jesus......Peter was not the first pope, and to claim that is to assign him to a position that Christ never gave him.......Jesus is the one who said.....“You must call no one on earth your father, since you have only one Father, and he is in heaven.” (Matt 23:9 NJB)
Your “Pontiff” is a Roman counterfeit.
At that time, Constantine was an Arian. He was baptized a Catholic on his death bed.
Constantine was an astute politician of whom it is said that for every Christian church he built, he also built a temple to Zeus. He sacrificed to Zeus whilst pretending to be what he clearly was not. He ran with the hare and hunted with the hounds. What was produced was a clear fusion of weakened Christianity and Roman sun worship....all the citizens of Rome had the same religion by order of the state, with aspects of both religions so that it appeared to serve everyone.......everyone except God and his son.
Although Constantine is often credited with being the first Christian emperor, he didn’t make Christianity the official religion.
Roman Catholicism was made the state religion of Rome....who can argue with that? Was it genuine Christianity though? Don’t we see Roman sun worship cleverly disguised in all Catholic art and statuary? Every image of Mary, Jesus or the saints have a halo....a symbol of the sun. It’s everywhere....the “Sun” became the “Son”.....the old switcheroo. No one seemed to notice.
Anti-Catholic Myths and Lies: #1 Emperor Constantine Founded the Catholic Church | Living Bread Radio Network This story, most famously told by Jehovah Witnesses and Fundamentalist Protestants, came out of their necessity to support their lie that there was an apostasy in the early Church. It is their way to explain how their reform and late arrival is justifiable
Regardless of who “founded” the Roman Catholic church, the fact remains that everything it teaches and practices is a complete departure from anything that Christ began. Jesus established his church with humble beginnings and there was never a command to build opulent cathedrals, or to have an earthly priesthood with fancy titles and distinctive garments to identify them.....monastic life was never mentioned, especially when vows of silence were imposed when Jesus told his disciples to be preachers....how do you preach if you cannot speak? Show me nuns and monks in first century Christianity?

Believing in transubstantiation is a violation of God’s law....making those who consume the bread and wine into cannibals....eating Christ’s literal flesh and blood.....when these were symbols of his sacrifice.....proven by the fact that he was still alive when he offered them to his disciples at the last supper.

Catholic people as well as all the multitude of Protestant religions, seem to have no idea how far from Christ’s teaching they have all strayed, or how well they fulfill the prophesy about the apostasy that was sure to come.

The link you provided has this statement...
“Constantine had a dream or a vision, He saw a strange sign in the heavens and heard the words en toutoi nika – Greek for “In this, conquer.” (The Latin is sometimes rendered as In hoc signo vinces, “In this sign you will conquer.” Constantine ordered that a new imperial standard bearing the sign be made immediately, and that the mysterious sign be painted on the shields of all his troops. The sign was formed from two greek letters, chi (X) and rho (P), the first two letters of the title ‘Christ”

Christians were not to be killers, but were taught by Christ to “love their enemies” (Matt 5:43-44)...so any sign that appeared to this pagan emperor, inciting bloodshed in wars, was not from God. (Isa 1:15) It would have been from “the god of this world” who blinds people to the truth and promotes hatred and bloodshed. (2 Cor 4:3-4)
By the time of Christ’s ministry Israel did not have a military force but were subjugated to Rome. Any who entered military service were seen as traitors because they served the interests of the Roman government. Like tax collectors, they were seen as sinners. Christians can therefore not serve in the military without ignoring the teachings of the Christ. On and on it goes......
 

Aunty Jane

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Why then do so many Christians, outnumbering JWs a hundred to one, not see it the same way? Are we all blind? Stupid?
Neither.....”duped” is the word I believe.....by a clever deceiver. He has made the truth look like lies...and the lies look like truth.....unless you are a student of the Bible and have God’s spirit, you will never see the difference. The Bible calls it a “delusion”, which we know is different to an hallucination.....a delusion is someone’s reality. (2 Thess 2:9-12)

If Jesus said that “few” would be found on the road to life, (Matt 7:13-14) then he means it.....logically, the majority will be found on the only other road there is.......the one that is a dead end but has so many travelling on it that they feel confident that the majority cannot be wrong.......well, yes they can, as the Jews themselves proved. We can never underestimate the deceptive power of God’s adversary....how many of those Jews ended up as Christians? Not the majority....and were they confident about their position? You bet! (Matt 27:25)