Predestinated to Salvation !

[Rockerduck]

Adam and Eve had no sin so they had eternal life, but as you can see when you turn away from God to follow the father of lies, you go from life to death. No one is predestined, God calls and we chose.

Whether you sin or not, you do not lose your salvation through Christ. God still called Adam a son. Adam and woman were only banned from the garden and the tree of life. They still knew God and talked to Him. Adam is in the direct family tree of Jesus.

 

[Taken]

Predestinated to Salvation !​

Yes.

Who……They who Heartfully Believe

What…..Shall be Soul Saved, Spirit Quickened.

When….After an Accounted Bodily Death.

Where…whereever an individual is.
(Church? Water baptism? Required?) No.

Why……They called on The Lords Name and confessed Heartfelt belief Before Bodily Death.

That man is “prepared” for The Lord Jesus’ Rapture.

Others become “prepared” to Become soul saved, physically body dead, raised up by God, ie.; “resurrected” in the first resurrection.

It is a matter of the Lord God knows all things.
Who, what, when an individual, will or will not confess Belief…
And the Lord God Himself Having Already “Prepared” for “all” with or without Him.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Whether you sin or not, you do not lose your salvation through Christ.

Ah ye olde security in sin heresy pops up once more!

 

[Aunty Jane]

God did His predestinating work b4 the world began.

Those Chosen in Him before the world began Eph 1:4

Eph 1:3-5….
”3  Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ, 4  as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and unblemished before him in love. 5  For he foreordained us to be adopted as his own sons through Jesus Christ, according to his good pleasure and will”.

Again, the founding of “the world” is the founding of “the world of mankind”…..those who would descend from sinful parents and need to be chosen for the monumental task of assisting Christ in undoing all the damage that was imposed on humanity through Adam’s disobedience.

Until Adam sinned, there was no reason for choosing any humans to rule with Christ in his kingdom because there was no need for an arrangement to buy back what Adam lost for us….you are putting the cart before the horse.

As soon as the deed was done and Adam had sealed our fate, God immediately stepped in with a solution….one that would eliminate the sin that causes death, by providing a sacrifice that would pay for what Adam did.

Genesis 3:15 is the Bible’s first prophesy and it was not fully understood until Christ came and the players finally were identified…
“The woman” in the prophesy is not Eve, but God’s spiritual “wife”…from among his own heavenly family, a beloved son was chosen to become a human and offer his life for Adam’s. Not just any son, but his most cherished “only begotten”….the one he trusted to carry out the difficult assignment….one who loved the human race because he had been instrumental in their creation. (Col 1:15-17)

The enmity that has always existed between God’s true worshippers and the devil’s servants, is manifest in the way their offspring have treated each other down through history, demonstrating by their conduct whom it is that they serve. The devil on the attack, and God’s people on the defense, protected by their Father.

The devil was to give a painful and temporarily disabling blow to the seed of the woman, but in the end would receive a fatal head wound from the one he tried to dissuade from his faithful course.

If you predestinate all that, it makes God responsible for all human suffering, when that is placed squarely at the feet of one individual…..Adam, (Rom 5:12, 19) who could have changed the course of our entire history, if he had just obeyed his God instead of his disobedient wife.

This is why “the founding of the world” cannot be the creation of the planet. God is not responsible for the choices of his free willed children…..but he will hold them to account for those choices….all of which have consequences for themselves and others.

 

[Hey You!]

Until Adam sinned, there was no reason for choosing any humans to rule with Christ in his kingdom because there was no need for an arrangement to buy back what Adam lost for us….you are putting the cart before the horse.

This sounds good; but it made me think of God’s purpose in Election standing. We know the word Predestined exists in the Bible, so God’s purpose in Election could also predate the World...

 

[Aunty Jane]

This sounds good; but it made me think of God’s purpose in Election standing. We know the word Predestined exists in the Bible, so God’s purpose in Election could also predate the World...

There was no reason to predestinate anything until there was a reason to do so.

God had contingencies ready for whatever his children chose to do….free will had its drawbacks, but it also had wonderful benefits if used correctly.

If they had never disobeyed, what would have been the result? There was no natural cause of death in Eden, so if they had never sinned, they would have had access to the tree of life and lived forever. (Gen 3:22-24)
Where? Right here on earth, where God put them in the first place.

 

[brightfame52]

Eph 1:3-5….
”3  Praised be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ, 4  as he chose us to be in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and unblemished before him in love. 5  For he foreordained us to be adopted as his own sons through Jesus Christ, according to his good pleasure and will”.

Again, the founding of “the world” is the founding of “the world of mankind”…..those who would descend from sinful parents and need to be chosen for the monumental task of assisting Christ in undoing all the damage that was imposed on humanity through Adam’s disobedience.

Until Adam sinned, there was no reason for choosing any humans to rule with Christ in his kingdom because there was no need for an arrangement to buy back what Adam lost for us….you are putting the cart before the horse.

As soon as the deed was done and Adam had sealed our fate, God immediately stepped in with a solution….one that would eliminate the sin that causes death, by providing a sacrifice that would pay for what Adam did.

Genesis 3:15 is the Bible’s first prophesy and it was not fully understood until Christ came and the players finally were identified…
“The woman” in the prophesy is not Eve, but God’s spiritual “wife”…from among his own heavenly family, a beloved son was chosen to become a human and offer his life for Adam’s. Not just any son, but his most cherished “only begotten”….the one he trusted to carry out the difficult assignment….one who loved the human race because he had been instrumental in their creation. (Col 1:15-17)

The enmity that has always existed between God’s true worshippers and the devil’s servants, is manifest in the way their offspring have treated each other down through history, demonstrating by their conduct whom it is that they serve. The devil on the attack, and God’s people on the defense, protected by their Father.

The devil was to give a painful and temporarily disabling blow to the seed of the woman, but in the end would receive a fatal head wound from the one he tried to dissuade from his faithful course.

If you predestinate all that, it makes God responsible for all human suffering, when that is placed squarely at the feet of one individual…..Adam, (Rom 5:12, 19) who could have changed the course of our entire history, if he had just obeyed his God instead of his disobedient wife.

This is why “the founding of the world” cannot be the creation of the planet. God is not responsible for the choices of his free willed children…..but he will hold them to account for those choices….all of which have consequences for themselves and others.

God did His predestinating work b4 the world began.

 

[Aunty Jane]

God did His predestinating work b4 the world began.

You can believe that if it suits your interpretation but it finds no support in Scripture.
God had a purpose in his creation and nothing would prevent him from completing it. Free will and predestination are incompatible. You have to choose one or the other, you cannot have both.

 

[brightfame52]

You can believe that if it suits your interpretation but it finds no support in Scripture.
God had a purpose in his creation and nothing would prevent him from completing it. Free will and predestination are incompatible. You have to choose one or the other, you cannot have both.

Yes I believe it:

God did His predestinating work b4 the world began.

He chose the same people in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4-5

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

See that ? Predestination ws according to the good pleasure of His will, not outside of that, looking to see what man is going to do, thats down right dishonoring to God,

 

[Hey You!]

There was no reason to predestinate anything until there was a reason to do so.

God had contingencies ready for whatever his children chose to do….free will had its drawbacks, but it also had wonderful benefits if used correctly.

If they had never disobeyed, what would have been the result? There was no natural cause of death in Eden, so if they had never sinned, they would have had access to the tree of life and lived forever. (Gen 3:22-24)
Where? Right here on earth, where God put them in the first place.

The reason is God's purpose in Election. He Chose Jacob before he had done anything Good to deserve Election, and he Passed Over Esau before he had done anything bad to not deserve Election...

You say there was no reason for God to Elect until we gave God a reason to Elect us. But he disagrees with you; he says his purpose in Election will stand. What is his Purpose in Election? According to Scripture, it certainly doesn't have anything to do with Our/Jacob/Esau's Good or Bad. Believing the Gospel is something Good we do, so it's eliminated as God's motive to Elect us. Unbelief is something Bad we do, so that's eliminated as a motive for God to Pass Over anyone for Election. Election stands in opposition to our Good or Bad; our Willing and Running. That's the only way that Election can be said to be God's purpose; not our purpose...

 

[Aunty Jane]

The reason is God's purpose in Election. He Chose Jacob before he had done anything Good to deserve Election, and he Passed Over Esau before he had done anything bad to not deserve Election...

Why did God choose Jacob? He was the grandson of Abraham, and was included in the line of descent to the Messiah. Jehovah is “the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” (Luke 20:37-38)…..the choosing between Jacob and Esau was not unexpected as we see that God foresaw which of these two boys was a spiritual man and which one was carnal. As Israel grew into a nation from that family unit, the tribe of Judah was singled out as the one from which Messiah would be born….and relying on the prophesies of Daniel, Messiah was expected in 29CE.
Jesus arrived right on time, presenting himself to John B for baptism in the Jordan River.

You say there was no reason for God to Elect until we gave God a reason to Elect us. But he disagrees with you; he says his purpose in Election will stand. What is his Purpose in Election? According to Scripture, it certainly doesn't have anything to do with Our/Jacob/Esau's Good or Bad. Believing the Gospel is something Good we do, so it's eliminated as God's motive to Elect us. Unbelief is something Bad we do, so that's eliminated as a motive for God to Pass Over anyone for Election. Election stands in opposition to our Good or Bad; our Willing and Running. That's the only way that Election can be said to be God's purpose; not our purpose...

OK….so please tell me what you think “election” is….and what it is for…..?

What is the purpose of being “elected” and who have this rare privilege?

Before Messiah came, what future destiny did the pre-Christian servants of God believe in?
How many of them imagined that they were going to heaven? Noah, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, King David?

The answer is….none of them. All of their hopes were pinned on the promise to Abraham for the seed in his lineage to come into the world and establish the Kingdom of God on earth. The Messiah made his appearance, but Abraham’s descendants rejected him and had him put to death for teaching things that their religious leaders did not agree with….blasphemies! when in fact they themselves were the blasphemers. The king of God’s kingdom was right there in the midst of them, and they did not recognize him. He was not what they were expecting.

Being Jewish, even Christ’s apostles were of the belief in an earthly kingdom, as they asked as he was ascending to heaven…. “Lord, are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time?” (Acts 1:6)….he told them to wait for the promised Holy Spirit and all would be revealed then. So with the outpouring of God’s spirit at Pentecost, what did those disciples who received it, come to finally understand?

They were anointed for life in heaven and understood that the kingdom of God is in heaven and that they would join their Messiah there. Their anointing gave them an inordinate desire to go and be with their Lord.
Even when he told them that he was going to “prepare a place for them in his Father’s house”, they still didn’t understand that he meant heaven….in their understanding, his Father’s house was the Temple, and later he told them that they were the Temple in which his Father dwelt by spirit. (1 Pet 2:5; Eph 2:20-22; 1 Cor 3:16)

All the things they thought were “earthly”, were “types and shadows” of the heavenly arrangement.

Those who were “elected” for heaven were told that they would be “kings and priests” with Christ in his kingdom (Rev 20:6)…..which meant being “born again” as spirit beings in order to dwell in the presence of God. Mere mortals cannot go to heaven.…so unless an elected one dies and is resurrected with a spirit body as Jesus was, they cannot enter heaven. No one went to heaven before Jesus. (John 3:13)

So, if these “kings and priests” were chosen by God and they had to be Jesus’ disciples to be elected in the first place, something was required of them. They had to be believers who proved their faith unto death as Jesus did.

What then is the purpose of this heavenly kingdom? Kings need subjects and priests need those who require their services which includes religious instruction as well as intercession. Who then are these ones?
Are they in heaven or on earth? Over whom does this kingdom rule?

Rev 21:1-6 provides the answer…..

“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” (ESV)

Peter also talks about a “new heaven and new earth”…(2 Pet 3:13)….are these literal? Why would they be literal when there is nothing wrong with either of them in the physical sense? God made them both perfect. It is sinful mankind on this earth, making a hash out of his own rulership that needs replacing.

Since mankind was originally to be ruled by God from heaven, then the new heavens would represent a new government of human earthly society, devoid of all corruption and wickedness that results in human suffering, replaced by the best government mankind has ever had (Daniel 2:44).….all hand picked by God for the task of bringing us back into reconciliation with God. That is what the elect are for…..not all Christians are going to heaven….that was never in the plan.

 

[Rightglory]

OK….so please tell me what you think “election” is….and what it is for…..?

What is the purpose of being “elected” and who have this rare privilege?

The word election in scripture has a very specific use. There are five instances where election is used. Contrary to the reformed position it is never used in the sense of being saved. All five uses show the meaning of being chosen for specific purposes.

Jesus Christ

Peter refers to Christ as the elect in I Peter 2:4,6, "To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious." And to what was He chosen? Verse 6 tells us, "Wherefore also it is contained in the Scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief comer stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded." Here, the Lord Jesus Christ is elect to be the chief cornerstone. Which means to be in a position of privilege and honor. It is clear that Peter does NOT mean that Christ was chosen to be saved.

Christ was chosen by the Father to occupy the office of Savior. As such He is the one chosen to bring blessing to mankind. It has nothing to do with Him being saved, for He was never lost. It has everything to do with His position and His calling in God's plan.

Secondly, Israel

In Isaiah 45:4 we find another election, "For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me." Here, Jacob, or Israel is called the elect of God.

Does this mean that all who are Israelites are automatically saved? Absolutely not! Israel was made a covenant nation before God. She was chosen in that respect, yet individuals within the nation still were responsible to exercise faith. Israel as a nation was considered elect.

To be a part of that nation, one had to be identified with that nation. Circumcision provided the means for identification (Gen. 17:9-14). Gentiles could also become part of the elect nation through circumcision (Gen. 17:12), and later, by taking hold of the covenant that was given to Israel (Isa. 56:6). These things identified a person with Israel and with the Lord.

We might ask, "Why is Israel elect?" The answer, ultimately, is because Israel was identified with Christ through the covenant, and Christ is elect. Why God chose or elected Israel. Here Jehovah puts it in the negative. Deuteronomy 7:7, "The Lord did not set His love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the Lord loved you, and
because He would keep the oath which He had sworn unto your fathers, hath the Lord brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt." Here again we see this principle of identification. Why did the Lord choose Israel according to this text? Israel was chosen because of the fathers.

The NT also defines the election of Israel. . One of the key passages is Acts 13:17, "The God of this people of Israel chose our fathers, and exalted the people when they dwelt as strangers in the land of Egypt, and with an high arm brought He them out of it." Why did God choose (or, "elect") Israel according to this passage? Israel was chosen to be exalted, and it is based on their identification with the fathers.

Romans 9:11, "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calleth. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." Jacob and Esau represent two nations according to Genesis 25:23, "And the Lord said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb...." The issue here is not which man was chosen to be saved, but rather, which nation would be chosen to serve God.

Romans 11:28, "As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes." Once again we see that identification with the fathers is the basis for Israel's national election. Because of the fathers (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob), the Israelites held a special position of blessing.

I Peter 1:2, "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ." Once again we find an election.
In chapter 2:9, Peter clearly identifies this election as national, "But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation..." (I Pet. 2:9). Peter is consistently using the word "election" in the same way that it was used of Israel in the Old Testament: that they were a covenant people, elect according to the foreknowledge of God.
In II Peter 1:10 "Therefore brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall." To what election is he referring? Remember what Peter has already told his readers in I Peter 2:9, "ye are... an holy
nation." II Peter is written to the same group (II Pet. 3:1). It is the election as a nation which Peter has in mind and is saying to these people, give diligence to make your calling and election sure.
All of these examples we see the purpose of election is not picking certain ones to be saved, but rather, it has to do with putting them in a privileged position to minister to others.

Election of the Apostles:

Luke 6:13. Here is another passage which reemphasizes our point that election is not God's choice to save someone. Our verse states, "And when it was day, He called unto Him His disciples: and of them He chose twelve, whom also He named apostles." Does their election here mean that they were automatically saved? No, Luke then lists the twelve chosen. Now we also know that Judas was of the chosen, however we also know he was not saved. Other texts that deal with the issue of Judas being chosen, but not saved. Acts 1:15f, John 6:70, John 13:17-18.

John 15:16 states, "ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you." It is essential to remember that the context here is with regard to the twelve apostles. "I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, He may give it you." This is spoken in particular to the twelve apostles
as those who will have great authority in the kingdom. Verse 19 continues, "If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." The choice God is making here relates not to salvation, but rather to God's desire that the apostles bear fruit, and that whatever they ask will be given to them of the
Father. This last statement definitely pertains to the apostles under the kingdom program, and is not a "blank check" promise for all believers today. But again, the election taking place is not to salvation, but rather to a privileged position of service.

The Election of the Body of Christ - His Kingdom - the Church

Ephesians 1:3,4 says, "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love." The two little words "in Him" hold the key to understanding election.

Romans 8:33. Here we find another reference to the election of the Body of Christ. "Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect"? It is evident that Paul is using the word "elect" here in reference to a group, for it is in the plural. The question is, what group does he have in mind? Paul speaks of a new group in Rom 12, the Body of Christ. "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Rom. 12:5). This Body of Christ is God's elect today.

Colossians 3:12. "Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, long suffering." How do we know he is referring here to the Body of Christ? Two things should be noted. First, in the broader context of the Book of Colossians, Paul has already identified himself as a minister to Christ's body, "which is the church" (Col. 1:24). Therefore, these Colossian believers were a part of this body.

What is the purpose of the election of the Body of Christ? It is to serve as ambassadors of Christ and to be channels of God's blessing to mankind. Today it is not the nation Israel which is the channel of God's blessing to the earth. Instead, it is the Body of Christ.

The Election of the Apostle Paul:

The Book of Acts makes reference to Paul's election and its purpose: "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel (or an elect vessel) unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" (Acts 9:15). Also in Acts 22:14, Annanias "a devout man according to the law" (verse 12) states, "The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of His mouth." Paul's calling was clearly to be an apostle, as he himself states, "Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God" (I Cor. 1:1).
). Paul was very clearly called unto apostleship and to a position of privilege as a source of blessing to the Gentiles. This is consistent with the purpose of all of the five elections that we find in Scripture. -two individuals, Christ and Paul, and three groups, Isreal, Apostles, The Body of Christ.

From the book The Power of God unto Salvation - Is the Gospel Enough" by Joel Finck.

 

[brightfame52]

@Rightglory

The word election in scripture has a very specific use. There are five instances where election is used. Contrary to the reformed position it is never used in the sense of being saved.

What is election/elect used for here 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[Rightglory]

@Rightglory



What is election/elect used for here 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

It refers to the elect, the Church.

 

[Aunty Jane]

@Rightglory

What is election/elect used for here 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Great question….but not really answered….

It refers to the elect, the Church.

Who or what then is “the church”….and who are the “elect” in it?

The question highlighted by @brightflame52 begs an answer….because it doesn’t say that the elect definitely “obtain salvation in Christ” but that they “may…obtain” the same hope that Paul himself expressed. As he said….
1 Cor 9:27 “….I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.”

I agree with a lot of what you posted (#52) but mention of the “elect” (chosen ones) occurs more than 5 times In the Greek Scriptures.
Strong's Number G1588 matches the Greek ἐκλεκτός (eklektos) which occurs 22 times in 22 verses of the NT.

The same word in Hebrew “bāḥîr” occurs occurs 13 times in 13 verses in the OT Hebrew. (Mostly in the Psalms and the book of Isaiah.) So the choosing of some for a special assignment is not uncommon in the Bible. (e.g. Isaac, John B, and of course Jesus, who became “the Christ or “anointed one”.)

So who are these “chosen ones?…..and what are they “chosen“ for?

In the OT Hebrew Scriptures, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “chosen” by God to carry on a lineage that would lead to the Christ or Messiah. It was why the nation had to be kept separate from the gentile nations…a pure bloodline had to be maintained or at least one had to be converted to the Jewish faith in order to be accepted by God. (Ruth was an example of this as a Moabite woman who accepted her mother in law, Naomi’s God as her own, and through her own exemplary conduct, became an ancestress of Jesus.)

What of the “elect” spoken about in the Greek Scriptures?

What were they chosen for…and when were they chosen?
Were they “predestined before the founding of the world”? Yes, the ones who would rule with Christ in his Kingdom were predestined as a group, but not as individuals. Free will meant that some could fall away and need to be replaced.
The “founding of the world” is not the creation of the planet but the founding of the world of mankind descended from Adam. Only after Adam’s sin was there a need for a redeemer and a kingdom to bring sinful humanity back in reconciliation with God.
If God planned the fall then he is nothing more than a sadistic fiend…..all human suffering could be laid at his feet….yet he is not responsible for any of it. Free will, when abused, can have dire consequences for the sinner as well as those personally affected by that sin.

If Jehovah predestinated individuals to salvation in advance, would he call or invite to such salvation those not predestinated for it, those who could not possibly attain it? Would not such an invitation be hypocritical in the extreme, a heartless mocking and cruel taunting of those whom he has foreordained to fail?
It would deny the divine attributes of both justice and love. God is not guilty of such unloving, unjust, hypocritical misconduct.
Who are those Jesus mentions in Matt 7:21-23? Do they believe that they are saved? Are their excuses accepted?

By pouring out his holy spirit upon those whom he calls, God invites them to membership in a special group who alone have “the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) and he does so without predestinating in advance their individual success or failure in attaining it.

Paul explains…..
”Now the one who prepared us for this very thing is God, who gave us the spirit as a token of what is to come.
6  So we are always of good courage and know that while we have our home in the body, we are absent from the Lord, 7  for we are walking by faith, not by sight. 8  But we are of good courage and would prefer to be absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord. 9  So whether at home with him or absent from him, we make it our aim to be acceptable to him. 10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of the Christ, so that each one may be repaid according to the things he has practiced while in the body, whether good or bad.”

Enough are called so that eventually the predestinated number are finally chosen, regardless of the many who may fall away after being called. It was because of this circumstance that Jesus said: “Many are called, but few are chosen.”

Would “the body of Christ” be a dismembered body, carved up into the many sects of Christendom?
How then would Paul’s definition of a Christian be authentic?
1 Cor 1:10…
“Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”

There can be no dissension or disagreements among true Christians….they are a global body of Christ’s disciples who all uphold the same truth and who, by their example, try to imitate Christ in his actions and follow his teachings to the letter.

 

[Ritajanice]

I know in my spirit that, even if I do wrong, I’m covered by the blood of Jesus, set free from sin, the Spirit cannot indwell the spirit of a sinner, our slate has been wiped clean, we are now on our own spiritual journey with God...mind Blowing ..we are also being conformed into his image, set apart by God, Born Again, all according to God’s purpose and plan.chosen and predestined to become Born Of The Spirit.

A Born Again who has “ been birthed by the Spirit “ can never fall away....they can certainly be deceived though”.....I have been deceived in my very early walk with God, it caused me to have a breakdown....but, because my spirit was / is Born Again...God was in that situation, he got me through my breakdown...plus over the years, by me continuing to walk in faith, he showed me their deceit and lies....they are in Gods hands , I have nothing more to do with them......what God taught me through that awful ordeal is.....God is in control....everything is in his timing and done in his strength....

God chooses his elect, to represent Jesus.we grow in heart to become more and more like Jesus, for there is where the Spirit indwells ....he indwells our “ heart” working in our hearts daily, to walk,tak, think, breath,” JESUS!......why some think that they can choose to become “ Born Again “ is beyond my understanding, plus it’s not biblical.
Just as his word says...Flesh gives birth to flesh.

“ Spirit “gives birth to spirit “...our spirit that is, it’s 100% birthed into the Spirit of Christ...by supernatural divine heart revelation..

A Born Again is not their own, they belong to the Father/ Jesus...just as the word says...the elect also are chosen to Glorify God....not to glorify themselves and their “ own” knowledge of scripture...understanding the inspired word, comes from the Spirit ,who brings it to our understanding, it’s taken 33 years to mature in the Spirit, still I’m maturing and still he brings me to understand more of his inspired word....

How on earth could I understand the inspired word, with out the Spirit.

Jesus will never in a billion years lose any that the “ Father” notice I emphasise “ Father” has given to him.

Why...because they have been supernaturally birthed, by the “ Living “ Spirit who testifies with our spirit, that we are the children of God.



My thoughts,testimony, belief.

Romans 8​

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King James Version​

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8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[brightfame52]

It refers to the elect, the Church.

That they might obtain what ? Read it carefully 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[brightfame52]

Great question….but not really answered….

Who or what then is “the church”….and who are the “elect” in it?

The question highlighted by @brightflame52 begs an answer….because it doesn’t say that the elect definitely “obtain salvation in Christ” but that they “may…obtain” the same hope that Paul himself expressed. As he said….
1 Cor 9:27 “….I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.”

I agree with a lot of what you posted (#52) but mention of the “elect” (chosen ones) occurs more than 5 times In the Greek Scriptures.
Strong's Number G1588 matches the Greek ἐκλεκτός (eklektos) which occurs 22 times in 22 verses of the NT.

The same word in Hebrew “bāḥîr” occurs occurs 13 times in 13 verses in the OT Hebrew. (Mostly in the Psalms and the book of Isaiah.) So the choosing of some for a special assignment is not uncommon in the Bible. (e.g. Isaac, John B, and of course Jesus, who became “the Christ or “anointed one”.)

So who are these “chosen ones?…..and what are they “chosen“ for?

In the OT Hebrew Scriptures, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “chosen” by God to carry on a lineage that would lead to the Christ or Messiah. It was why the nation had to be kept separate from the gentile nations…a pure bloodline had to be maintained or at least one had to be converted to the Jewish faith in order to be accepted by God. (Ruth was an example of this as a Moabite woman who accepted her mother in law, Naomi’s God as her own, and through her own exemplary conduct, became an ancestress of Jesus.)

What of the “elect” spoken about in the Greek Scriptures?

What were they chosen for…and when were they chosen?
Were they “predestined before the founding of the world”? Yes, the ones who would rule with Christ in his Kingdom were predestined as a group, but not as individuals. Free will meant that some could fall away and need to be replaced.
The “founding of the world” is not the creation of the planet but the founding of the world of mankind descended from Adam. Only after Adam’s sin was there a need for a redeemer and a kingdom to bring sinful humanity back in reconciliation with God.
If God planned the fall then he is nothing more than a sadistic fiend…..all human suffering could be laid at his feet….yet he is not responsible for any of it. Free will, when abused, can have dire consequences for the sinner as well as those personally affected by that sin.

If Jehovah predestinated individuals to salvation in advance, would he call or invite to such salvation those not predestinated for it, those who could not possibly attain it? Would not such an invitation be hypocritical in the extreme, a heartless mocking and cruel taunting of those whom he has foreordained to fail?
It would deny the divine attributes of both justice and love. God is not guilty of such unloving, unjust, hypocritical misconduct.
Who are those Jesus mentions in Matt 7:21-23? Do they believe that they are saved? Are their excuses accepted?

By pouring out his holy spirit upon those whom he calls, God invites them to membership in a special group who alone have “the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) and he does so without predestinating in advance their individual success or failure in attaining it.

Paul explains…..
”Now the one who prepared us for this very thing is God, who gave us the spirit as a token of what is to come.
6  So we are always of good courage and know that while we have our home in the body, we are absent from the Lord, 7  for we are walking by faith, not by sight. 8  But we are of good courage and would prefer to be absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord. 9  So whether at home with him or absent from him, we make it our aim to be acceptable to him. 10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of the Christ, so that each one may be repaid according to the things he has practiced while in the body, whether good or bad.”

Enough are called so that eventually the predestinated number are finally chosen, regardless of the many who may fall away after being called. It was because of this circumstance that Jesus said: “Many are called, but few are chosen.”

Would “the body of Christ” be a dismembered body, carved up into the many sects of Christendom?
How then would Paul’s definition of a Christian be authentic?
1 Cor 1:10…
“Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”

There can be no dissension or disagreements among true Christians….they are a global body of Christ’s disciples who all uphold the same truth and who, by their example, try to imitate Christ in his actions and follow his teachings to the letter.

This is a mess ,just to avoid the truth. 2 Tim 2:10

10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[Ritajanice]

Another thing....as we grow and mature, which we surly will, if our spirit is Born Again.

We resemble our family member....or we should....Jesus is my family member,I grow to resemble him.

My worldly family members, were in sin...but...they did the best they could , bringing me up....

God is our teacher.....all this mud slinging that we do at times, is of the flesh....the old man...put on the new man....and lets stop insulting one another......

 

[Rightglory]

Great question….but not really answered….

Who or what then is “the church”….and who are the “elect” in it?

The question highlighted by @brightflame52 begs an answer….because it doesn’t say that the elect definitely “obtain salvation in Christ” but that they “may…obtain” the same hope that Paul himself expressed. As he said….
1 Cor 9:27 “….I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.”

Becoming a member of the Church, the elect, does not guarantee one salvation. One is joined by faith and baptism and anyone who enters is not guaranteed salvation because each and every person must follow Christ, must live according to His precepts. The NT is fill of advice on how we should do that.

I agree with a lot of what you posted (#52) but mention of the “elect” (chosen ones) occurs more than 5 times In the Greek Scriptures.
Strong's Number G1588 matches the Greek ἐκλεκτός (eklektos) which occurs 22 times in 22 verses of the NT.

The same word in Hebrew “bāḥîr” occurs occurs 13 times in 13 verses in the OT Hebrew. (Mostly in the Psalms and the book of Isaiah.) So the choosing of some for a special assignment is not uncommon in the Bible. (e.g. Isaac, John B, and of course Jesus, who became “the Christ or “anointed one”.)

So who are these “chosen ones?…..and what are they “chosen“ for?

Example: If one believes and joins the Church, the elect, then you have been chosen to perform what God established the Church to do. In the OT, the word is often used to refer to Israel which is one of the cases of election. They were set apart to perform the will of God within the world in their time.

In the OT Hebrew Scriptures, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were “chosen” by God to carry on a lineage that would lead to the Christ or Messiah. It was why the nation had to be kept separate from the gentile nations…a pure bloodline had to be maintained or at least one had to be converted to the Jewish faith in order to be accepted by God. (Ruth was an example of this as a Moabite woman who accepted her mother in law, Naomi’s God as her own, and through her own exemplary conduct, became an ancestress of Jesus.)

This is explained in my post 52 under election of Israel.

What of the “elect” spoken about in the Greek Scriptures?

What were they chosen for…and when were they chosen?
Were they “predestined before the founding of the world”? Yes, the ones who would rule with Christ in his Kingdom were predestined as a group, but not as individuals. Free will meant that some could fall away and need to be replaced.
The “founding of the world” is not the creation of the planet but the founding of the world of mankind descended from Adam. Only after Adam’s sin was there a need for a redeemer and a kingdom to bring sinful humanity back in reconciliation with God.
If God planned the fall then he is nothing more than a sadistic fiend…..all human suffering could be laid at his feet….yet he is not responsible for any of it. Free will, when abused, can have dire consequences for the sinner as well as those personally affected by that sin.

If Jehovah predestinated individuals to salvation in advance, would he call or invite to such salvation those not predestinated for it, those who could not possibly attain it? Would not such an invitation be hypocritical in the extreme, a heartless mocking and cruel taunting of those whom he has foreordained to fail?
It would deny the divine attributes of both justice and love. God is not guilty of such unloving, unjust, hypocritical misconduct.
Who are those Jesus mentions in Matt 7:21-23? Do they believe that they are saved? Are their excuses accepted?

By pouring out his holy spirit upon those whom he calls, God invites them to membership in a special group who alone have “the heavenly calling” (Heb 3:1) and he does so without predestinating in advance their individual success or failure in attaining it.

Nowhere in scripture does it ever say or imply that God determines where one will spend eternity. He created man with a free will and expects man to use that freedom, but man is also responsible for how he uses it. Many believe and have a good start but fall away. The parable of the sower shows this very clearly. Paul also states in Rom 2:5-11, as well as Rev 20:12-13 that every single person will give an account of his deeds.
God calls all men to repentance, there is no selection of who will believe. Rom 1:18-21 also shows there is no one who will have an excuse that they did not have an opportunity to know God.

Paul explains…..
”Now the one who prepared us for this very thing is God, who gave us the spirit as a token of what is to come.
6  So we are always of good courage and know that while we have our home in the body, we are absent from the Lord, 7  for we are walking by faith, not by sight. 8  But we are of good courage and would prefer to be absent from the body and to make our home with the Lord. 9  So whether at home with him or absent from him, we make it our aim to be acceptable to him. 10  For we must all appear before the judgment seat of the Christ, so that each one may be repaid according to the things he has practiced while in the body, whether good or bad.”

Enough are called so that eventually the predestinated number are finally chosen, regardless of the many who may fall away after being called. It was because of this circumstance that Jesus said: “Many are called, but few are chosen.”

None are predestined. All are called, no exceptions, but only those who believe, become part of the elect, the Church are chosen. Being there or getting there does not guarantee salvation in the end. I Peter 1:3-5.

Would “the body of Christ” be a dismembered body, carved up into the many sects of Christendom?
How then would Paul’s definition of a Christian be authentic?
1 Cor 1:10…
“Now I urge you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you should all speak in agreement and that there should be no divisions among you, but that you may be completely united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”

There can be no dissension or disagreements among true Christians….they are a global body of Christ’s disciples who all uphold the same truth and who, by their example, try to imitate Christ in his actions and follow his teachings to the letter.

The Church was meant to be unified. However, man has created divisions, sects and denominations.