Foreknowledge and Predestination in Scripture

[Arthur81]

Foreknowledge (G4268 pronosis N) -

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it." (Acts 2:22-24 KJV)
observe
"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4:27-28 KJV)

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." (1Pet 1:1-2 KJV)

Foreknow, Foreknew, Foreordained (G4267 proginosko V) -
*It helps in word study to read both the nouns and the verbs of the same word.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Rom 8:29 KJV)

"God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life." (Rom 11:2-3 KJV)

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," (1Pet 1:19-20 KJV)

For an interesting comparison, read the words of Jesus -
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:22-23 KJV)

Predestination, Determined before, Ordained (G4309 proorizo V) -
*YES, the Greek translated "predestinated" is 6 times in the NT, not just 4. In Acts 4:27-28 it refers to the world's most horrible sin.

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4:27-28 KJV)

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1Cor 2:7-8 KJV)

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Rom 8:29 KJV)

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Rom 8:29-30 KJV)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Eph 1:4-6 KJV)
*We were chosen to be holy and without blame, NOT because we were already without blame

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ." (Eph 1:11-12 KJV)

OBSERVATIONS
1. The noun 'foreknowledge' must be seen with its verbs 'foreknow & foreknew' which shows that the words refer to persons loved and known before, not 'things' foreseen. It is people foreknown.
2. In Matt 7:22-23 Jesus says he "never knew you", the person, not never knew things as works or faith
3. In Acts 2:23, 'counsel' is connected to 'foreknowledge'; in Acts 4:28, 'cousel' is connected to 'determined before' or predestined or foreordained, being the Greek G4309 proorizo
4. In 1 Pet 1:19-20 KJV foreknown & foreknew Greek is translated "foreordained"
5. Reading the preceding verses in the NRSV, I find Greek words often translated as "predestined", "destined", "decreed": the NRSV is an Academic Translation, not translated according to either Calvinist or Arminian theology. An example of a NRSV translation -

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance." (1Pet 1:1-2 NRSV)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Foreknowledge (G4268 pronosis N) -

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it." (Acts 2:22-24 KJV)
observe
"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4:27-28 KJV)

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." (1Pet 1:1-2 KJV)

Foreknow, Foreknew, Foreordained (G4267 proginosko V) -
*It helps in word study to read both the nouns and the verbs of the same word.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Rom 8:29 KJV)

"God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life." (Rom 11:2-3 KJV)

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," (1Pet 1:19-20 KJV)

For an interesting comparison, read the words of Jesus -
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:22-23 KJV)

Predestination, Determined before, Ordained (G4309 proorizo V) -
*YES, the Greek translated "predestinated" is 6 times in the NT, not just 4. In Acts 4:27-28 it refers to the world's most horrible sin.

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4:27-28 KJV)

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1Cor 2:7-8 KJV)

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Rom 8:29 KJV)

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Rom 8:29-30 KJV)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Eph 1:4-6 KJV)
*We were chosen to be holy and without blame, NOT because we were already without blame

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ." (Eph 1:11-12 KJV)

OBSERVATIONS
1. The noun 'foreknowledge' must be seen with its verbs 'foreknow & foreknew' which shows that the words refer to persons loved and known before, not 'things' foreseen. It is people foreknown.
2. In Matt 7:22-23 Jesus says he "never knew you", the person, not never knew things as works or faith
3. In Acts 2:23, 'counsel' is connected to 'foreknowledge'; in Acts 4:28, 'cousel' is connected to 'determined before' or predestined or foreordained, being the Greek G4309 proorizo
4. In 1 Pet 1:19-20 KJV foreknown & foreknew Greek is translated "foreordained"
5. Reading the preceding verses in the NRSV, I find Greek words often translated as "predestined", "destined", "decreed": the NRSV is an Academic Translation, not translated according to either Calvinist or Arminian theology. An example of a NRSV translation -

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance." (1Pet 1:1-2 NRSV)

Many English translations are academic translations. The KJV simply usede the language of the day.

And I am positive that the translators of the NRSV used their own predispositional doctrinal beliefs in translating. Our beliefs are our foundation in thinking in all matters.

But I would object to the NRSV as it uses as a foundation the very flawed Westcott and Hort Greek grammar.

 

[marks]

Foreknow, Foreknew, Foreordained (G4267 proginosko V) -
*It helps in word study to read both the nouns and the verbs of the same word.

This is a faulty foundation. Proginosko means to know in advance, and does not mean to ordain in advance.

Much love!

 

[brightfame52]

This is a faulty foundation. Proginosko means to know in advance, and does not mean to ordain in advance.

Much love!

False, read the OP its based on scripture study

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Foreknowledge (G4268 pronosis N) -

"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it." (Acts 2:22-24 KJV)
observe
"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4:27-28 KJV)

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." (1Pet 1:1-2 KJV)

Foreknow, Foreknew, Foreordained (G4267 proginosko V) -
*It helps in word study to read both the nouns and the verbs of the same word.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Rom 8:29 KJV)

"God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life." (Rom 11:2-3 KJV)

"But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you," (1Pet 1:19-20 KJV)

For an interesting comparison, read the words of Jesus -
"Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:22-23 KJV)

Predestination, Determined before, Ordained (G4309 proorizo V) -
*YES, the Greek translated "predestinated" is 6 times in the NT, not just 4. In Acts 4:27-28 it refers to the world's most horrible sin.

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4:27-28 KJV)

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1Cor 2:7-8 KJV)

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." (Rom 8:29 KJV)

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Rom 8:29-30 KJV)

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved." (Eph 1:4-6 KJV)
*We were chosen to be holy and without blame, NOT because we were already without blame

"In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ." (Eph 1:11-12 KJV)

OBSERVATIONS
1. The noun 'foreknowledge' must be seen with its verbs 'foreknow & foreknew' which shows that the words refer to persons loved and known before, not 'things' foreseen. It is people foreknown.
2. In Matt 7:22-23 Jesus says he "never knew you", the person, not never knew things as works or faith
3. In Acts 2:23, 'counsel' is connected to 'foreknowledge'; in Acts 4:28, 'cousel' is connected to 'determined before' or predestined or foreordained, being the Greek G4309 proorizo
4. In 1 Pet 1:19-20 KJV foreknown & foreknew Greek is translated "foreordained"
5. Reading the preceding verses in the NRSV, I find Greek words often translated as "predestined", "destined", "decreed": the NRSV is an Academic Translation, not translated according to either Calvinist or Arminian theology. An example of a NRSV translation -

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance." (1Pet 1:1-2 NRSV)

There is a conflicting problem with observations 1 & 2.

If God foreknew and predestined us, He also predestined events (things) all working together for good, and evil things as well, throughout the individuals life, that led up to the moment of their spiritual transformation ( being born again) and and after until death. Of course the person's uniquely ordained purpose fits into and works with all other relationships and experiences in life. This is called a plan.
God had a Perfect Plan for mankind! What does that mean? It doesn't mean it was half baked, sketched out like an archetecta first draft idea. No, He knows the beginning from the end - All. This master plan included all the details ( the significant ones); not what color socks you wore or what you chose for breakfast (unless the breakfast happened to be laced with cyanide or some deadly virus). Our freedom to chose activities, friends, work, direction, whether good evil is there as well, as long as it does not interfere with His Plan. We cooperate with His PLAN in that He is guiding us to do so all the way, allowing for many errors that require many lessons, chastising, wielding our character, preparing us for our purpose. And of course we usually do not have a clue that He is watching, guiding, protecting until we have that divine appointment.
If a predestined soul, prior to the fulfillment of their designed election and purpose, decided to go with a bunch of buddies who were going to get drunk, drive and die in a car crash - that would obviously interfere with His PLAN. He, watches over us, and His angels,.to protect us from Satan, thus He prevents you from going, changes your mind, causes interference somehow and you don't go. Were the other kids in that car elect? Maybe.
What about a whole town of Christians who sent their sons off to war and many died. Their parents and their households( includes them) are saved already - that was a promise. Now likely moments before their death in a foxhole, they prayed hard!
Part of God's purpose is to allow evil, calamities, troubles, even death. He is Sovereign.
Jesus is the Author of Faith. What does that mean? He writes our story, our spiritual journey of a lifetime that leads us to our salvation. This includes significant, key events and people who come into our lives, who influence us, help us, encourage us, witness and minister to us. Sometimes it is subtle, a message, or an act of kindness at the right time and it sticks with us. And we aren't even aware of what happened until later when we put the pieces together, when we finally see God's hand, His guidance and protection all through our lives.

 

[marks]

False, read the OP its based on scripture study

Defining proginosko as preordained is not correct. I've done the studies. You don't just get to change the meanings of words to fit some view.

Much love!

 

[brightfame52]

Defining proginosko as preordained is not correct. I've done the studies. You don't just get to change the meanings of words to fit some view.

Much love!

Yes it is correct, I have studied the word 1 Pet 1:20

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

proginōskō:

1. to have knowledge before hand
2. to foreknow
   1. of those whom God elected to salvation
3. to predestinate

It is true that He was chosen and foreordained (destined and foreknown for it) before the foundation of the world, but He was brought out to public view (made manifest) in these last days (at the end of the times) for the sake of you.AMPC

Christ was ·chosen [destined; L foreknown] before ·the world was made [L the foundation/creation of the world], but he was ·shown to the world [revealed] in these last times for your sake.EXB
NRSVA
He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake.
NRSVACE
He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake.
NRSVCE
He was destined before the foundation of the world, but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake.
NRSVUE
He was destined before the foundation of the world but was revealed at the end of the ages for your sake.

NTFE
He was destined for this from before the foundation of the world, and appeared at the end of the times for your sake,

Then we see its biblical usage Acts 2:23

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

His foreknowledge is preceded and joined by His determinate counsel

Gill writes of1 Pet 120

Who verily was foreordained,.... Or "foreknown"; that is, by God; and which intends, not barely his prescience of Christ, of what he should be, do, and suffer; but such a previous knowledge of him, which is joined with love and affection to him; not merely as his own Son, and the express image of his person, but as Mediator; and whom he loved before the world was, and with a love of complacency and delight, and which will last for ever. It includes the choice of him as the head of the election, and the pre-ordination of his human nature, to the grace of union to his divine Person, and the pre-appointment of him to various things.

Barnes write:

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world - That is, it was foreordained, or predetermined, that he should be the great stoning Sacrifice for sin. On the meaning of the word "foreordained," (προγινώσκω proginōskō,) see Romans 8:29. The word is rendered which knew, Acts 26:5; foreknew and foreknow, Romans 8:29; Romans 11:2; foreordained, 1 Peter 1:20; and know before, 2 Peter 2:17. It does not elsewhere occur in the New Testament. The sense is, that the plan was formed, and the arrangements made for the atonement, before the world was created.

 

[Stumpmaster]

​

 

[Scott Downey]

Clearly states it all right here, written to and of the saints

1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace be to you and peace from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ, even as

4 He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

5 having predestined us to be His own adopted children by Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will,

6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, wherein He hath made us accepted in His Beloved:

How this works out in our life, God has afore determined for us, before our existence.

All God's works were finished on the 7th day and He rested...

 

[Scott Downey]

We who believe were not born saved, but we would be the saved, as this God had determined before time began for us.
This can not be denied as only the elect obtain salvation, while the rest are blinded, just as it is written.

Paul tells us this is written down in the scripture, and it clearly has been.

6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. [a]But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”


10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the [c]elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.


You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 2 And the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses, commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also. 3 You therefore must endure[a] hardship as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. 4 No one engaged in warfare entangles himself with the affairs of this life, that he may please him who enlisted him as a soldier. 5 And also if anyone competes in athletics, he is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules. 6 The hardworking farmer must be first to partake of the crops. 7 Consider what I say, and [b]may the Lord give you understanding in all things.

8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the [c]elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

 

[PGS11]

You would have to consider time itself - is there a clock running in heaven like on the earth is time passing the same - does God exist in time not knowing what's coming.It is a timeless eternal place from what I have read where God sees past present and future but it doesn't mean he is directing everything we are told we have freewill to choose.Its how God would be all knowing of everything.Our own physics tells us the past present and future exist together and the flow of time seems to be a illusion we are caught in.Einstein himself has said this.Could time be a result of the fallen world sweeping away everything into death in this reality because that's exactly what it does and it misses nothing.That same death would be in heaven if time flows and we know its not - heaven is eternal.

 

[Scott Downey]

Paul wrote this to the saints, for them, not the world.
God appointed us, meaning we were chosen in Him.

8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation.

9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

 

[Scott Downey]

You would have to consider time itself - is there a clock running in heaven like on the earth is time passing the same - does God exist in time not knowing what's coming.It is a timeless eternal place from what I have read where God sees past present and future but it doesn't mean he is directing everything we are told we have freewill to choose.Its how God would be all knowing of everything.Our own physics tells us the past present and future exist together and the flow of time seems to be a illusion we are caught in.Einstein himself has said this.Could time be a result of the fallen world sweeping away everything into death in this reality because that's exactly what it does and it misses nothing.That same death would be in heaven if time flows and we know its not - heaven is eternal.

Salvation is not forced, God creates in us a willing, teachable heart, that is why we received Him.
God did that by making you born again first, then you believe and enter the kingdom.
God granted you to believe in Him
As Peter said, they had come to believe in Him. Why? The work of God is that you believe in Him whom He has sent.

Do you believe this?

John 6 and Philippians 1 show that

Many Disciples Turn Away​

60 Therefore many of His disciples, when they heard this, said, “This is a [m]hard saying; who can understand it?”

61 When Jesus knew in Himself that His disciples [n]complained about this, He said to them, “Does this [o]offend you? 62 What then if you should see the Son of Man ascend where He was before? 63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

66 From that time many of His disciples went [p]back and walked with Him no more. 67 Then Jesus said to the twelve, “Do you also want to go away?”

68 But Simon Peter answered Him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69 Also we have come to believe and know that You are the [q]Christ, the Son of the living God.”

Striving and Suffering for Christ​

27 Only let your conduct be worthy of the gospel of Christ, so that whether I come and see you or am absent, I may hear of your affairs, that you stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel, 28 and not in any way terrified by your adversaries, which is to them a proof of perdition, but [f]to you of salvation, and that from God. 29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, 30 having the same conflict which you saw in me and now hear is in me.

 

[PGS11]

I said does God exist in time like we do.They speak of our time passing not theirs.I don't need the bible lines they prove nothing.Ok the clock is ticking in heaven then like you want it to like on earth everything is rotting away like on earth and needs constant maintenance everyone is aging time would sweep everything away to death the same as here.You say death exist there.We are in the fallen world not God.

We live in a physical world not the spiritual world.Do you think they are the same.
People want to see heaven like it is here on the earth because its all we know and cannot perceive the afterlife and never will until we die we can only imagine and that's every human being who has lived no one knows and it should not be compared to this reality which is a fallen reality.Do you think this not a fallen world and we are not in a fallen state separated from God.Its why Jesus came.

 

[Scott Downey]

I said does God exist in time like we do.They speak of our time passing not theirs.I don't need the bible lines they prove nothing.Ok the clock is ticking in heaven then like you want it to like on earth everything is rotting away like on earth and needs constant maintenance everyone is aging time would sweep everything away to death the same as here.You say death exist there.We are in the fallen world not God.

We live in a physical world not the spiritual world.Do you think they are the same.

We are in the world, but we are not of the world. We are of God, your flesh will be changed, right now your spirit is joined to the Lord as one spirit with Him. Yes, you do need the scripture, it is about our salvation being taught. Heaven may not have a concept of time like we do on the earth, Heaven though does change, we will get a new heaven and a new earth in the future. This current creation is set for a destruction by a consuming fire and it will all disappear, then the final judgement, and then the new creation appears, and everything is in the eternal state.

John 17
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep[d] through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are. 12 While I was with them [e]in the world, I kept them in [f]Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is [g]lost except the son of [h]perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I come to You, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have My joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not pray that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify[i] them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.

 

[PGS11]

Yes I know that.My point is time cannot be perceived from Gods point of view and no one can say then can know this to say all things are predetermined.

He has sent his prophets many times trying to get people to listen but as we know they don't or warn of whats to come and the coming of Christ.They listened to Jonah and the city was saved didn't go so well for Jonah though.

 

[PGS11]

In Revelations in the Heavenly city of Jerusalem at the wedding of the lamb there are millions and millions of Angels present for the celebration.They are not little babies with wings or how movies and art depict them. They are powerful spiritual beings that exist in the spiritual world who serve and fight wars for God.The fallen Angels are powerful spiritual beings.Its thought that Satan was once a cherub before his fall.You know the one's we depict as little babies with wings.My point here is it show a spiritual word exists with millions and millions of spiritual beings who knows how many there are or what it is like.