Perseverance of the Saints is different from Once Saved Always Saved

[Behold]

If you're going to reply with a verse, could you find one that states you can never forfeit your salvation?

Jesus said.. "All that believe in me, I give unto you eternal life, and you shall never go to Hell (Perish)".

So, what is real faith in Christ, and what is false faith in Christ. ??????

Real faith in Christ, is...I believe that "Jesus who saved me, keeps me saved".

False faith, or broken faith, says..."Jesus only started my salvation, and now its on me, to try to not go to hell".

Which one are you reader?
You dont have to answer me, as God already knows all about it.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Your verses are referring to Discipleship.. not to Salvation.

When Paul says, "ive finished my course, and there is laid up for me in HEAVEN">.

See that?
That's Discipleship, not Salvation.

Salvation, is the "GIFT of Salvation", and you don't "reap" that, you receive it, as "The Gift of Salvation.

And now that the born again CHRISTIAN, has received eternal Salvation, they are to enter the race, and get on the course, and all that is really just this verse.

A.) = "Present your body, as a living Sacrifice, to God, which is your reasonable SERVICE".

See that "presenting" and that "service". ??????????????. that is your DISCIPLESHIP.. and the CHRISTian is doing that daily, because they have already been born again, as a '"New Creation in Christ"....
Christians are not to serve God to try to stay saved, or keep from losing their Salvation... they are to serve God because they are already SAVED, forever., and because that has happened, its a "reasonable service" to give your life to God., not to stay saved, but because you already ARE Saved.

Jesus said.. "All that believe in me, I give unto you eternal life, and you shall never go to Hell (Perish)".

So, what is real faith in Christ, and what is false faith in Christ. ??????

Real faith in Christ, is...I believe that "Jesus who saved me, keeps me saved".

False faith, or broken faith, says..."Jesus only started my salvation, and now its on me, to try to not go to hell".

Which one are you reader?
You dont have to answer me, as God already knows all about it.

We should take note of how many accounts are aboard whose sole purpose is to slander the Gospel. As well as intend to spread and push the Satanic Agendas lie that Christians are not Eternally Secure.

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus said.. "All that believe in me, I give unto you eternal life, and you shall never go to Hell (Perish)".

So, what is real faith in Christ, and what is false faith in Christ. ??????

Real faith in Christ, is...I believe that "Jesus who saved me, keeps me saved".

False faith, or broken faith, says..."Jesus only started my salvation, and now its on me, to try to not go to hell".

Which one are you reader?
You dont have to answer me, as God already knows all about it.

Well, actually it IS up to you.
Where does it say in the NT that it isn't??

ALL THAT BELIEVE IN ME, I GIVE ETERNAL LIFE.

Notice that BELIEVE is in the present tense.
We must BELIEVE in God at the time of our death in order to be saved.

If we DO NOT obey God and live as He wishes us to....
then it's proof that we DO NOT BELIEVE in Him...
Because if we believe, we will obey.


Matthew 7:21
21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.


John 8:51
51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”

 

[BlessedPeace]

The History of the Reformation

“A cesspool of heresies.” This was the judgment rendered by Holy Roman Emperor Charles V on May 26, 1521, shortly after Luther took a stand at the Diet of Worms

www.ligonier.org

 

[Behold]

Well, actually it IS up to you.

Jesus is Salvation.

Can you do that?


So, If God's Salvation is "The Gift of Salvation" and "The Gifts and callings of God are without REPENTANCE"......

What does that mean.
It means that once God gives you a Gift, its God's imputed eternal Gift.
You didnt earn, it, you didnt work for it, and its God caused., and God gifted.

= This is.. "Born again".
You can't do that, so you can't undo that., and that is why there is no verse in a bible that says, "You can be unborn again".
You can't end a BIRTH based on Behavior.
You can't stop being a "new Creation",, "in Christ" because that is that is God caused, while you were "yet a sinner"., not after you were good for a while and tried to start saving yourself, because you lost all your Faith in Christ.

So, the Height of Pride, is when a person believes that they can undo what God has done.
And that is what is happening in the head of a deceived person, who does not understand what it means to be "in "Christ", as "one with God".

Let me put it to you like this reader.
Once a deceived believer believes that they have more power to end salvation, then Jesus who is in the Born Again, has given them Eternal life, then this person is lost in pride.

"You can't keep me saved God... see, i found 3 verses that TO ME, prove to ME, that i have more power to lose YOUR GIFT of Salvation, then You have the Power to keep me saved".

You know what God does with this type of carnal person, this "self saver", this, Denier of Eternal Life?

God does nothing with them... nothing.
He just moves on to a real believer., who has real faith, and uses that one.

 

[Behold]

We should take note of how many accounts are aboard whose sole purpose is to slander the Gospel. As well as intend to spread and push the Satanic Agendas lie that Christians are not Eternally Secure.

Amen.

Real faith, is not to believe that Jesus saved you.. but its to believe that Jesus Keeps you saved.

So, if a BELIEVER, born again, no longer believes that Jesus Keeps them saved, then Paul defines them as "fallen from Grace", and "In the Flesh"... and he says.. "Who has bewitched you, that you no longer obey the truth."..

Whereas...If a fake believer, does not believe that Jesus keeps them saved, then that is because they never truly trusted in Christ to begin with...

And here is the main issue with those 2..

Both will come to forums and talk about Jesus, and Law, and Salvation.., and both will try to prove you can "lose your salvation".

Both cases will "speak christianese", but only one Case is : "In Christ".

 

[Runningman]

I did. :)

And you now admit you lied. That's a start. Though contrition is not your nature.

I didn’t lie. OSAS and Calvinism does permit unabated sinning day and night. If they don’t allow for this, then the doctrine is false.

It's not desirable for one to admit this is the truth in those doctrines, thus the downplaying of this fact.

It's entirely counter to what the Bible teaches.

No need to lash out and assign sin to people; perhaps it’s time for you to take a closer look at what the Bible really says.

 

[Runningman]

Is that you RM?

We agree 100% on this.
I'm not sure about the Reformed....most tend to live according to their beliefs...maybe, I mean, who could be sure?

But, yes, the OSAS crowd DO believe they could live as they wish and still be saved.
I know this because this has been clearly stated on the other forum....I was there a long time and the stuff I heard was pretty amazing.
They actually say that no matter what they do, they will be saved because it's Jesus that will save them.

An extreme form of Monergism I believe.

Yes it’s me. Same person from the other forum. Nice to see you here.

Yes. In OSAS and Calvinism there is not something one can do to lose their salvation or elect status even if they wanted to. In other words, they believe they’re going to heaven and there is nothing they can do about it.

I’m under no impression that when I start quoting scripture I will change anyone’s mind because I have discussed these things long enough to know that would require great luck or a miracle. However, I do know that their ideas about this topic are antithetical to scripture. If there was one major message in the Bible then it’s to stop sinning now and repent… or else.

 

[Runningman]

Wow BP !
@Runningman is right.
It's worse than I thought.
You don't even know what you believe!

Your video CLEARLY states that reformed theology includes TULIP.

There's a difference between theology of the Reformation (which includes some reformed theology)
and
Reformed Theology which is known as Calvinism.

In fact, Protestantism, which came out of the Reformation, has abandoned Reformed Theology because it plainly goes against the teachings of the NT.

Only those denominations (maybe 3 that I could think of) that still accept Calvinism remain.
Calvinism is just another name for Reformed Theology because Calvin was the most charismatic of the bunch....
or maybe the meanest - I'm not sure.

Yes all true. I know you and I disagree about some other things, but on this we agree. I see that in this thread there is a bit of sleight of hand going on.

Comment #1 conflated Christianity with Reformed theology when they aren’t really the same things.

And Got Questions has a heavy Calvinist lean so it’s possible they may try to merge Calvinism with the Protestant reformation and say that’s what Christianity is.

@BlessedPeace I think at this point we need to sort things into their correct category and properly define them before a conversation can truly begin.

 

[BlessedPeace]

I didn’t lie. OSAS and Calvinism does permit unabated sinning day and night. If they don’t allow for this, then the doctrine is false.

It's not desirable for one to admit this is the truth in those doctrines, thus the downplaying of this fact.

It's entirely counter to what the Bible teaches.

Prove it.
Warning. You'll actually have to study Calvinism and the Gospel of Christ first.

Then you'll find,you can't prove it.

No need to lash out and assign sin to people;

You admitted your sin. I merely pointed it out first.

perhaps it’s time for you to take a closer look at what the Bible really says.

You should take your own advice. Your Sophistry doesn't work among Christians who actually read Scripture.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Amen.

Real faith, is not to believe that Jesus saved you.. but its to believe that Jesus Keeps you saved.

So, if a BELIEVER, born again, no longer believes that Jesus Keeps them saved, then Paul defines them as "fallen from Grace", and "In the Flesh"... and he says.. "Who has bewitched you, that you no longer obey the truth."..

Whereas...If a fake believer, does not believe that Jesus keeps them saved, then that is because they never truly trusted in Christ to begin with...

And here is the main issue with those 2..

Both will come to forums and talk about Jesus, and Law, and Salvation.., and both will try to prove you can "lose your salvation".

Both cases will "speak christianese", but only one Case is : "In Christ".

If they stopped having faith they were always in the flesh. They were never a truly born again.

The fakes here are lazy and obviously so,and are of their father,the devil.

Imagine thinking posing as a xtian amid actual born again Elect of God and insisting Salvation is not eternal and irrevocable , as Jesus taught and died to seal with his blood for all time.

Now imagine someone believes "you". ( Impersonal you)

 

[Runningman]

Prove it.
Warning. You'll actually have to study Calvinism and the Gospel of Christ first.

Then you'll find,you can't prove it.

Proving it and you listening are not the same things. I will be happy to prove it once you cease with the personal attacks. You have been relentless ever since I first addressed the OP and you immediately inferred I am going to hell.

You admitted your sin. I merely pointed it out first.

Saying "He who is without sin cast the first stone" is not an admission of sin. When Jesus said it, he wasn't saying he is a sinner. You are actually the one bearing false witness at this point.

You should take your own advice. Your Sophistry doesn't work among Christians who actually read Scripture.

How come you haven't replied to my first reply in this thread with a scriptural rebuttal yet? Are you stalling? Begin with post #34.

 

[St. SteVen]

Perseverance of the Saints is incorrect.
Eternal Security is correct as it's understood by most Christians....that security is eternal IN JESUS.
OSAS cannot be correct.

Following is a good explanation: God has CONDITIONS:

What?

There is so much confusion about OSAS (a negative term for eternal security)

OSAS = Eternal Security

OSAS = Once Saved Always Saved = Eternal Security

How is OSAS not eternal security?

--- PARODY ---

OSAS person: Are you saved?
NOSAS person: What do you mean?
OSAS person: Do you have salvation in Jesus Christ?
NOSAS person: No one does.
OSAS person: Seriously?
NOSAS person: Yes. You have to persevere to the end.
OSAS person: So, you have to wait and see?
NOSAS person: I suppose so.
OSAS person: What if you don't make it?
NOSAS person: I guess I'm toast.
OSAS person: That's tragic!

]

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Perseverance of the Saints is incorrect.
Eternal Security is correct as it's understood by most Christians....that security is eternal IN JESUS.
OSAS cannot be correct.

Following is a good explanation: God has CONDITIONS:

Let's take another example, Galatians 6:9: "And let us not be weary in well doing; for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not. The condition that must be met, before the promise to reap can be fulfilled, is that we must not faint. So if we faint, then it follows that we shall not reap.

But it also follows that if we have reaped, then it must be true that we did not faint. Otherwise, if we reaped and yet we did faint, then it must be true that we will reap whether we faint or not. This makes the conditional statement absolutely useless and the verse nonsensical: we shall reap if do not faint and we shall reap if we do faint. No matter what we do, we shall reap. But if this be the case, then Paul's warning against fainting is meaningless and utter nonsense. Why encourage people not to faint when in actuality it does not matter if they do or they don't.

source: Why Eternal Security Is Not a Biblical Doctrine

Eternal Security is OSAS! and it is also the perseverance of the saints. Remember they needed a P for tulip and chose that. Look at the definition and not just the title of the acronym

Also your Galatians passage is not about salvation but about reaping rewards

 

[Ritajanice]

Eternal Security is OSAS! and it is also the perseverance of the saints. Remember they needed a P for tulip and chose that. Look at the definition and not just the title of the acronym

Also your Galatians passage is not about salvation but about reaping rewards

Who in our spirit keeps us persevering.....the Holy Spirit Of course...those who are carnal wouldn’t understand a word of this would they?

Plus we have been Born Again of imperishable seed that liveth and abideth forever.......

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◄ 1 Peter 1 ►

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Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ A Greeting from Peter (2 Peter 1:1–2) 1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the elect who are exiles of the Dispersion throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, chosena 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by His blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance. A Living Hope 3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By His great mercy He has given us new birthb into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4and into an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, reserved in heaven for you, 5who through faith are shielded by God’s power for the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. 6In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in various trials 7so that the proven character of your faith—more precious than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory, and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 8Though you have not seen Him, you love Him; and though you do not see Him now, you believe in Him and rejoice with an inexpressible and glorious joy, 9now that you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls. 10Concerning this salvation, the prophets who foretold the grace to come to you searched and investigated carefully, 11trying to determine the time and setting to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, when they foretold the things now announced by those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. Even angels long to look into these things. A Call to Holiness (Hebrews 12:14–17) 13Therefore prepare your minds for action.c Be sober-minded. Set your hope fully on the grace to be given you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14As obedient children, do not conform to the passions of your former ignorance. 15But just as He who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do, 16for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”d 17Since you call on a Father who judges each one’s work impartially, conduct yourselves in reverent fear during your stay as foreigners. 18For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, 19but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot. 20He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake. 21Through Him you believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and glorified Him; and so your faith and hope are in God. The Enduring Word (Isaiah 40:6–8) 22Since you have purified your souls by obedience to the truth so that you have a genuine love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from a pure heart.e 23For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24For, “All flesh is like grass, and all its glory like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25but the word of the Lord stands forever.”f And this is the word that was proclaimed to you.

 

[Behold]

Eternal Security is OSAS!

OSAS, is the contemporary version of what unsaved religious Jews accused Paul of teaching, 2000 yrs ago.

2000 yrs ago, it sounded like this.....>"You are telling us to sin, so that Grace will come".

So, what is happening here?
Its this.
A person who can't understand that they are kept saved, exactly the same way they became saved, teach that God's Grace, when taught correctly, is "sin license".

So, when a Christian does not understand Salvation, they will believe they can lose their salvation, .. and so, once they are deceived in that way, then they can't possibly understand, Eternal Life in Christ, as Eternal Security found as being "in Christ", as "One with God".

The deceived believer only understands, "once saved"... .... and so, they can't understand "always saved", and that is because they do not trust in Christ to keep them saved, forever.

 

[JLB]

That single verse should have changed your heart, but since that did not happen, and you want to spar with me, I can see you are not being spiritually minded. What you are is indoctrinated into a set belief structure that you have setup in your heart to believe whatever you will about God's words, even when it is contrary to what God says.

Why don't you provide scripture so we can see what God says about this subject.



JLB

 

[JLB]

OSAS, is the contemporary version of what unsaved religious Jews accused Paul of teaching, 2000 yrs ago.

2000 yrs ago, it sounded like this.....>"You are telling us to sin, so that Grace will come".

So, what is happening here?
Its this.
A person who can't understand that they are kept saved, exactly the same way they became saved, teach that God's Grace, when taught correctly, is "sin license".

So, when a Christian does not understand Salvation, they will believe they can lose their salvation, .. and so, once they are deceived in that way, then they can't possibly understand, Eternal Life in Christ, as Eternal Security found as being "in Christ", as "One with God".

The deceived believer only understands, "once saved"... .... and so, they can't understand "always saved", and that is because they do not trust in Christ to keep them saved, forever.

So do you trust the Lord Jesus Christ to keep you from sinning?

Please explain how that works?

Each of us have a choice to either walk according to the flesh or walk according to the Spirit.


There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1

 

[Behold]

So do you trust the Lord Jesus Christ to keep you from sinning?

Christian's are not under the law, so, the law can't define them as a sinner.

"where there is no law, there is no Sin"... = The Born again are "Not under the LAW, but under GRACE".

"Christ is the END of THE LAW..... for Righteousness, to/for everyone who BELIEVES"....

Where are my sins?

A.) "God hath made Jesus to BE SIN.... for US".

AA.) "US".. = all the born again.

Jesus has all my sin, and i have all "Christ's Righteousness" as "The Righteousness of God, in Christ".

A.) All Christians, are "made Righteous"...

Righteousness is something the believer receives from God, as "The GIFT of Righteousness"...

So, if a person has sin, then they are not forgiven yet... they are not "in Christ" yet... they are not born again yet.

How do you know?

Because there is no sin found in Christ.. and there is no sin found..In God.. and there is no sin found... in Heaven..

AA.) All The born again, are "in Christ"... "seated in Heavenly places", as "One with God".

 

[JLB]

Christian's are not under the law, so, the law can't define them as a sinner.

Christian's are under the law of Christ, not the law of Moses.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4


Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. Galatians 6:2


For he who sows to his flesh will of the flesh reap corruption, but he who sows to the Spirit will of the Spirit reap everlasting life.
Galatians 6:8