Perseverance of the Saints is different from Once Saved Always Saved

[GodsGrace]

That single verse should have changed your heart, but since that did not happen, and you want to spar with me, I can see you are not being spiritually minded. What you are is indoctrinated into a set belief structure that you have setup in your heart to believe whatever you will about God's words, even when it is contrary to what God says.

You're here to change people's minds?
Good luck.

Ditto as to the above.

You don't want to discuss?
Fine.

But don't blame me with silly excuses.

My friend, YOU are more indoctrinated than I like to think.
And not only do you not know God's words...
You do not know God Himself.

As all reformed do not.
God is not the God you explain to others....
And I don't know what He thinks about this...
But I would read James 3:1 if I were you and think about it.

1Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

 

[BlessedPeace]

I can agree with all you've said if understood correctly.
Won't be going over your entire post.

The reason I disagree with reformed theology and I do believe you're reformed, is this very first sentence of yours:

Our faith is given to us by God, we are granted to come to Christ, while some others are not granted to come to Christ.

Where exactly does the NT state this?
I haven't found one verse to support this idea yet.

Not one?
True.
Many.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

“I Speak in Parables So They WON’T Understand.”

What does the following mean?

John 12:32
32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Not all men will accept...but God draws all men because:

1 Timothy 2:3-4
3This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Please post a couple of verses that support your theology that God only calls some and not all.

The word ALL is mentioned twice, BTW,,,,I think we can assume that both JESUS and PAUL meant ALL.

 

[GodsGrace]

Not one?
True.
Many.

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

“I Speak in Parables So They WON’T Understand.”

Nonsense.
Report back when you have something to say.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Nonsense.
Report back when you have something to say.

That remark applies to you.

 

[GodsGrace]

That remark applies to you.

Maybe you'd like to have a REAL conversation?
Something I've not been able to do on this forum.
Many remarks
Mary tirades
No scripture.

The subject was IRRISESTABLE GRACE.

Would you care to post some scripture that supports your theology stating that God gives His saving grace only to some
and that it cannot be refuted.....

IOW,,,,it's God - totally apart from our acceptance of salvation - that saves us.
He does it all.
Nothing needed from us.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Maybe you'd like to have a REAL conversation?

Christian adults here have been engaged in a real conversation.

Something I've not been able to do on this forum.
Many remarks
Mary tirades
No scripture.

The subject was IRRISESTABLE GRACE.

Would you care to post some scripture that supports your theology stating that God gives His saving grace only to some
and that it cannot be refuted.....

IOW,,,,it's God - totally apart from our acceptance of salvation - that saves us.
He does it all.
Nothing needed from us.

I posted a link regarding Yeshua s reasons for teaching in parables.
Scriptures have been posted on this topic throughout this and other threads with related topic matter.

 

[GodsGrace]

Christian adults here have been engaged in a real conversation.

I posted a link regarding Yeshua s reasons for teaching in parables.
Scriptures have been posted on this topic throughout this and other threads with related topic matter.

Were we discussing parables?
I believe we were discussing irresistable grace.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Were we discussing parables?
I believe we were discussing irresistable grace.

:)

 

[Ronald Nolette]

but we do not persevere, we never could.

He keeps us, we do not keep ourself

YOu must remember TULIP is merely an acronym. Teh definition are what are important and ewternal security is the meaning behind perseverance of the saints.

 

[Scott Downey]

Hebrews 9 is a good read about eternal security, called here eternal redemption...

11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things [c]to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, [d]sanctifies for the [e]purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without [f]spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

YOu must remember TULIP is merely an acronym. Teh definition are what are important and ewternal security is the meaning behind perseverance of the saints.

Agreed but it’s misleading

Let’s just call it what it is eternal security.

It’s funny how tulip is afraid of faith in God being a work then promote we persevere. That’s why doctrines are foolish let’s just stick with the word

 

[Scott Downey]

Referring to Hebrews 9 above, there are not any transgressions for them who are part of this NC, as God has forgiven you all your sins and trespasses. As to regarding eternal redemption, there is no challenge to that if He has truly made you begotten again, God will remember them no more to judgement, you are free.
But you are not free to pursue the lusts of the flesh... there is no judgement hanging over you of eternal destruction, but there is still a judgement seat of Christ where you will give an accounting to God for the deeds done in the body.

John 5
24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. 25 Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

Hebrews 8

A New Covenant​

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. 8 Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins [b]and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

13 In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

 

[Earburner]

Eph. 6:18- KJV:
[18] Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Eph. 6:18- with Strong's:
Ephesians 6:18
[18]Praying G4336 always G3956 G1722 G2540 with G1223 all G3956 prayer G4335 and G2532 supplication G1162 in G1722 the Spirit, G4151 and G2532 watching G69 thereunto G846 G1519 G5124 with G1722 all G3956 perseverance G4343 and G2532 supplication G1162 for G4012 all G3956 saints; G40

Eph 6:18- Textus Receptus Greek:
Eph. 6:18
διὰ πάσης προσευχῆς καὶ δεήσεως προσευχόμενοι ἐν παντὶ καιρῷ ἐν πνεύματι καὶ εἰς αὐτὸ τοῦτο ἀγρυπνοῦντες ἐν πάσῃ προσκαρτερήσει καὶ δεήσει περὶ πάντων τῶν ἁγίων
by all prayer and supplication, praying at all times in the spirit, and to this, being watchful in all things, fasten and pray for all the saints

 

[Runningman]

Many Christians who hold to Once Saved Always Saved understand it the same as Perseverance of the Saints. The title of this thread concerns the dangerous abuse of the OSAS where some think once you do that "decision for Christ" at one point of time, and you can later be living like the Devil and thinking you are a regenerate person, or a person who has been "born from above", or "born again".

From The Heidelberg Catechism (1563) as presented online by the Christian Reformed Church in North America, with Scripture Proofs

Q & A 1
Q. What is your only comfort
in life and in death?

A. That I am not my own,1
but belong—

body and soul,
in life and in death—2

to my faithful Savior, Jesus Christ.3

He has fully paid for all my sins with his precious blood,4
and has set me free from the tyranny of the devil.5
He also watches over me in such a way6
that not a hair can fall from my head
without the will of my Father in heaven;7
in fact, all things must work together for my salvation.8

Because I belong to him,
Christ, by his Holy Spirit,
assures me of eternal life9
and makes me wholeheartedly willing and ready
from now on to live for him.10

1 1 Cor. 6:19-20
2 Rom. 14:7-9
3 1 Cor. 3:23; Titus 2:14
4 1 Pet. 1:18-19; 1 John 1:7-9; 2:2
5 John 8:34-36; Heb. 2:14-15; 1 John 3:1-11
6 John 6:39-40; 10:27-30; 2 Thess. 3:3; 1 Pet. 1:5
7 Matt. 10:29-31; Luke 21:16-18
8 Rom. 8:28
9 Rom. 8:15-16; 2 Cor. 1:21-22; 5:5; Eph. 1:13-14
10 Rom. 8:1-17

"Translation © 2011, Faith Alive Christian Resources. This English translation approved by Synod 2011 of the Christian Reformed Church in North America and by General Synod 2011 of the Reformed Church in America."

Heidelberg Catechism

www.crcna.org

Notice that a Christian's eternal security is not a "once saved always saved" but one of perseverance as written clearly in that last paragraph in the answer to Q1 -

"Because I belong to him, Christ, by his Holy Spirit, assures me of eternal life and makes me wholeheartedly willing and ready from now on to live for him."

*There is a Baptist version of the Heidelberg Catechism by Hercules Collins -

https://www.thecalvinist.net/etc/1680%20Orthodox%20Catechism%20(Hercules%20Collins).pdf

Under the premise of Calvin's TULIP it wouldn't matter if someone lives like the devil or not because they are elected and are predestined to eventually persevere because the P doesn't stand alone in Calvinism. It takes the whole point out of doing anything if God is pulling all of the strings then any failures or successes would not be of one's choosing nor their fault. If this sounds antithetical to the Bible then it's because it is. Calvinism and OSAS aren't Christianity.

In real Christianity, people make their own choices and their perseverance until the end is entirely dependent on their choices. This is why people are ultimately judged according to their works, not God works. Based on their choices, they will be given eternal life or not.

Romans 2
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God.

 

[PS95]

Under the premise of Calvin's TULIP it wouldn't matter if someone lives like the devil or not because they are elected and are predestined to eventually persevere because the P doesn't stand alone in Calvinism. It takes the whole point out of doing anything if God is pulling all of the strings then any failures or successes would not be of one's choosing nor their fault. If this sounds antithetical to the Bible then it's because it is. Calvinism and OSAS aren't Christianity.

In real Christianity, people make their own choices and their perseverance until the end is entirely dependent on their choices. This is why people are ultimately judged according to their works, not God works. Based on their choices, they will be given eternal life or not.

Romans 2
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God.

Fancy meeting you here Rman.
The Word is Jesus!

 

[Runningman]

Fancy meeting you here Rman.
The Word is Jesus!

lol wow you brought that debate here too lol. I won't say anything since that topic is actually banned on this board.

I'm on a lot of boards. See you around! ;)

 

[BlessedPeace]

Under the premise of Calvin's TULIP it wouldn't matter if someone lives like the devil or not because they are elected and are predestined to eventually persevere because the P doesn't stand alone in Calvinism. It takes the whole point out of doing anything if God is pulling all of the strings then any failures or successes would not be of one's choosing nor their fault. If this sounds antithetical to the Bible then it's because it is. Calvinism and OSAS aren't Christianity.

In real Christianity, people make their own choices and their perseverance until the end is entirely dependent on their choices. This is why people are ultimately judged according to their works, not God works. Based on their choices, they will be given eternal life or not.

Romans 2
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11For there is no respect of persons with God.

You won't go to Hell if you actually take the time to find out what the Reformation Doctrine is, you know.


Then,you can move on and study to find out what The Gospel is.

Baby steps.

 

[BlessedPeace]

As it stands, the Calvinism everywhere trumpets and trumpeters here are obviously woefully uninformed.

They cast aspersions against God's free irrevocable gift of grace filled Salvation by insisting it is a license to sin.


They have no idea! None!

They try to insist we Save ourselves by acting right to the day we die. Salvation is earned and impermanent.

They're arguing against Christ's whole purpose for coming into the world. They're insisting it isn't at all true every time they insist on two "facts".

1.) Salvation isn't free nor permanent

2.) Jesus,Yeshua,was a liar.

Meanwhile, not a Christian alive believes our eternal irrevocable Salvation is a license to Sin.

No one,not even those who read the Bible just as another piece of literature could ever arrive at the conclusion just in casual reading of the New Testament alone, that it is easily inferred eternal Salvation is a license to Sin.

Yet,there are a dedicated few here who insist it is.

Why?
We know why.



NoUrNot!

 

[Runningman]

You won't go to Hell if you actually take the time to find out what the Reformation Doctrine is, you know.


Then,you can move on and study to find out what The Gospel is.

Baby steps.

This is unrelated to my comment. This isn't even the same topic either. I am speaking about Calvin's Reformed doctrines, i.e. TULIP, not Luther's Protestant Reformation. Please take time to find out the difference.

Baby steps.

 

[mailmandan]

I like the term, "preservation of the saints."

Psalm 37:28 - For the Lord loves justice and does not forsake His saints; They are preserved forever, But the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off.

Jude 1:1 - Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ.