Bob
Well-Known Member
Thank you for your detailed response. You state a couple of “IMOs,” so perhaps I can be granted some opinions, too!And yet God consigned the world over to that very position……
When Paul wrote…
“Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.”(Rom 13:1-7)…
It is clear that our subjection is relative, because the rulers of our nations are placed in their position of authority by God, who is the ultimate authority.
Yet, we know that these authorities are at times very corrupt, but unless their laws conflict with God’s laws, we are to obey them, because the apostles clearly stated the ”we must obey God as ruler rather than men”. (Acts 5:29)
God permits human governments to rule because if he didn’t, anarchy would predominate, accelerating violence and discord, more that what is already experienced in the flawed human governments we see around the world today, and down through history. These governments have a purpose, and they are permitted to rule, but their conduct is not sanctioned by God. A true Christian will be removed from all involvement in politics, or in any branch of governmental authority that bears arms in order to punish criminals.
When Christians were commanded to obey the superior authorities, it was those in governmental power to whom they were subjected, but Christians were commanded to be “no part of the world”…..how does one remain “no part of the world” and at the same time become part of it?
Is this what God says?…or is this what Bob says that God says?
How was “the group” of Christ’s disciples preserved in Bible times, Bob? Whom did they rely upon for their safety? Since their government became their persecutors, it was certainly not “the world” who would come to their rescue…..many were martyred, and faced death with courage, knowing that a large reward awaited them upon their resurrection. The Christian congregations in the first century did not have a police force to protect them….they had elders who determined what should be done in those situations, reiterating Christ’s teachings and reinforcing his example when persecution came.
There are no accounts in the Bible of Christians resisting arrest, or trying to escape imprisonment. They quietly offered no physical resistance, but mentally and spiritually, they were fortified by their faith to remain faithful even to death if necessary.
Well, that is a justification based on very flimsy evidence and unsound reasoning IMO.
To hark back to the law of Moses when speaking of Christians, is not valid. The Jews as a nation were under law…born into a dedicated relationship with their God and subject to his laws without a choice. The penalties carried out under Mosaic Law were authorized by God for his own people and to punish those of his own people, who transgressed that law.
Under the new covenant, the old law was abolished along with the authority to carry out punishments, which included the death penalty. In Jesus’ day, the Jews were subject to Roman law and judged accordingly. They did not have authority to punish individuals with death, which is why they sought to get Pilate to order the death penalty for Jesus on trumped up charges. They even threatened to report him to Caesar for treason, if he did not do as they demanded.
The Christians had no authority to physically punish anyone…..the only thing they were authorized to do was to judge within the congregations, individuals who broke God’s law…and the only punishment administered, was excommunication…removal from fellowship with the faithful. (1 Cor 5:9-13)….we know that “a little leaven ferments the whole lump”…..so we would simply remove the leaven.
I don’t believe that your justifications find any real basis in Scripture…..but you have to know Scripture before you can evaluate any given situation. You can only justify what the Bible condemns if you truly don’t know the whole truth. As Jesus condemned the Pharisees by saying that they knew the letter of the law but failed to appreciate the spirit behind it…so therefore not interpreting the real reason why the law was given in the first place.
You have missed the point entirely IMO….there is no sanction for us to become part of the ruling authority or to become part of its efforts (largely unsuccessful) to curb crime and violence. We are to be “no part” of the devil’s world system of human rulership.
Do you understand that God gave rulership of this world over to the devil, to prove his case? (Luke 4:5-8)….have you never wondered why it is all so corrupt and filled with injustice? If God was ruling the world, would this situation even exist? Isn’t this why we need God’s kingdom to “come” so that God’s will is “done ON EARTH as it is in heaven”?
God’s Kingdom will remove all corrupt human rulership and reestablish his rule over mankind (Daniel 2:44)….under the leadership of his appointed King, we can then look forward to life in paradise on earth as God first intended. (Rev 21:2-4)
It is not clear why you believe the Law has been abolished: Jesus said the opposite, and the Apostle Paul said the new covenant is not an excuse to transgress the Law freely during the week, thinking Jesus will always bail you out During confession. Moreover, you do in fact agree that congregations have the authority to punish intentional transgressors (per the Apostle Paul AND the Law). Bit let us be clear: excommunication and exile are most certainly physical punishments (as well as spiritual).
So, if someone in your congregation were a blatant, unrepentant thief, would “exile” be sufficient, or would you ask for restitution, and perhaps engage the local government in enforcing restitution?
Yes, early Christians had no part of Roman government, for good reason—it was hierarchal and based on Might Makes Right. And today, were we living in, say, North Korea, it would be no different for any Christian. But what about Australia today? Is it not a nation governed by the rule of law, and enforced by Might FOR Right (Mosaic Law again)? There is not supposed to be a Ruling Class (though some politicians deem it), but elected officials are supposed to servants of the people.
Should a Christian not become a servant of the people by never answer a call to enter politics? William Wilberforce decided otherwise, and he was at the forefront of abolishing slavery. Should a Christian never be an enforcing member of the police or military? Are we not at least thankful to all those who gave their lives to preserve our freedoms, especially the freedom to worship publicly without fear of persecution?
If your beliefs say Christians should never part of the (enforcing) police or military, so be it. Will you condemn us if we believe otherwise (see, e.g., Augustine of Hippo, “City of God”, Chapter 21)?
Blessings.
