OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[GracePeace]

If God reacted to something then it means that He didn't know about it or He didn't see it coming. That's not the God of the Bible, He knows everything, He sees everything at the same time, He see everything from the beginning of time to the end of time at this very moment, He is outside of time, He is outside of His creation, He is invisible, He doesn't speak with His creation, he predetermined everything from the beginning to the end of time.

You have a very low view of God, our god fits in you mind. The God of the bible is a mystery, we know next to nothing about Him, let alone fit Him in to our minds.

1. You are speculating, whereas I read God sent angels to verify a thing.

2. You're not even approaching answering what I said. I'm seeing that you're not interested in actually discussing the subject, but in maintaining a mere cosmetic appearance of "discussing", and of having answers. I won't entertain you much longer.

 

[GracePeace]

You could help me i9f you didn't insist on superimposing your doctrine over orthodox bible doctrine. God is not an Indian giver, He doesn't give you a gift one day and then rip it from your hand the next day, that's not the God of the bible. you made that one up in your own mind.

I have no idea what you mean by "their righteousness of faith". I can tell you that I never had any righteousness of faith and I still don't have any today. I've never actually hear of such a thing before, so it's completely new to me. My Pastor advised me to trash anything new, he said if you ever hear anything new, know that it is of the Devil.

You can call the God of the bible and evil monster at your own peril, but He did say that nothing happens outside of His will. I'm not going to get into a deep theological discussion, until you learn the basics, because you evidently don't know them yet.

I am going by Scripture.
If you disagree with the Scripture, or my view of it, address what you opine are the errors in the exegesis. Coming on here and emptily rattling off your views without addressing specifics of what you claim are misinterpretations is not helpful.

 

[GracePeace]

They never were His children, Romans 11 and the rest confirm they those who are lost were never His elect. Roman 11 confirms that God reserved 7,000 Israelites for Himself, they are (His elect). They were saved before the foundation of the world. They were saved by grace and not by race as you wrongly believe.

God chose to save a remnant from every tribe and tongue, before He made the world. This is what you either refuse to acknowledge, or you can't because God hasn't opened your eyes to see it yet.

Ro 11 says Gentile believers, grafted in by faith, can also be cut off for unbelief.

Goes with Deut 32:5 "they are NO LONGER His children because of their defect" (they used to becHis children, but are no longer His children), and Hos 1 describes the same dynamic.

 

[GracePeace]

If the Lord gave the servant an insufficient measure of faith and the poor servant wasn't able to fulfill his obligation because the measure of faith he received was not sufficient to enable him to achieve the goal.

So according to your reckoning, the fault lies with god, because he didn't give the servant enough faith to do what was required of Him. You sound like a hyper Calvinist, with that doctrine. A proper Calvinist would say God didn't give him any measure of faith, because God doesn't play childish games.

If God purposed to save you before the foundation of he world, then He will give you more than enough faith to abide in Christ till the end.

Nope, He gave to each "according to his ability"--and the Lord faulted the servant for not doing what he could have done ("you should have brought My money to the bank so that I could at least have received interest").

Names can be blotted out of the Book of Life even if they had been written there from before the foundation of the earth--as noted, God can change history, forgetting righteousness, blotting Names out of His Book (so that, effectively, they were never there from before the foundation of the earth anymore).

 

[GracePeace]

@ChristianSoldier No one is forcing you to discuss. If you're going to keep emptily rattling off your views, not engaging, you would do better to see yourself out. At some point I'm going to put you on ignore. I can't stand being made to clarify, re-clarify, bc the other person is playing games.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Oh, really?
Any text you read to come to any conclusion you make is being misread, then.

What part of what I have said is a misunderstanding? Prove I have misunderstood.

You are acting chldish and attempting to rile me. Tone it down and we might communicate. I make it a practice not to remember and will need to go find the post when the ire cools off.

 

[GracePeace]

You are acting chldish and attempting to rile me. Tone it down and we might communicate. I make it a practice not to remember and will need to go find the post when the ire cools off.

You don't have to discuss anything here. No one is forcing you.

Here's how it works:
1. You make your point.
2. Your point gets debunked.
3. You humble yourself and acknowledge you were wrong.

Lol All the drama and gobbledygook your side is known for is not part of the process, and should never even come into play.

I don't know why this is so complicated.

 

[GracePeace]

You are acting chldish and attempting to rile me.

Nope, just showing you what you were doing--emptily asserting this-and-that about what I'd said, all without offering any substantive argument.

If you complain that what i said was me "being childish", and I was just showing you what you were doing, what are you saying about yourself?

 

[GodsGrace]

I could do that,

But how about this

Jesus said in john 3, 2 times,

Do this (believe or have faith)

You will NEVER PERISH (die) and you will have ETERNAL LIFE

so 2 times in this passage, he related eternal life to the fact we will never die. And this is in context with being born again, ie that which was dead in sin, is made alive...


But this is not the only place this happens.

It happens again in John 6.

Look at everything Jesus said in john 6.

1. We will NEVER hunger or thirst
2. We will NEVER DIE, we will LIVE FOREVER
3. We WILL be raised on the last day.
4. We have eternal life

so again, in context, eternal life is equal to the fact we will never die, we will live forever, not only this, but we will never hunger or thirst, and we will be raised by him personally, vs being delivered to him on judgment day (rev 20: 13)

so I must again question why you thought you had to go outside the word to see what may or may not have been said? In context. in these two passages, everlasting or eternal means what it says eternal. It does not mean anything less that this. Just because a word may be interpreted a different way does not mean it has to. Look at context.. Context destroys any thinking it may not actually mean forever. That is unless never does not mean never and forever does not mean forever etc etc

I went outside of the Word for this reason,
which will also apply to all our discussions:

You seem to be able to prove OSAS from some verses in scripture.
I seem to be able to prove that this is not taught in the NT.

In some places it seems as though Jesus is saying WE WILL NEVER PERISH.
In other places it seems as though Jesus is stating that if we don't ABIDE in Him, we will be thrown away.

HOW can we determine who is correct?
Is there another way?

We cannot both be right.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I went outside of the Word for this reason,
which will also apply to all our discussions:

You seem to be able to prove OSAS from some verses in scripture.
I seem to be able to prove that this is not taught in the NT.

but this would cause a contracition would it not, How do we determine what causes the contradiction to resolve it

In some places it seems as though Jesus is saying WE WILL NEVER PERISH.
In other places it seems as though Jesus is stating that if we don't ABIDE in Him, we will be thrown away.

Again, a contradiction. so how do we resolve it?

HOW can we determine who is correct?

The word, find the interpretation that allows both statements to not be apposed to each other. That is what is so great about Gods word. it can help us to interpret itself.

if you see a supposed contradiction. You can know, by the fact Gods word is inspired, that there is no contradiction. So you adjust your belief system to make it work out.. Sadly, history shows many have adjusted the word to fit their belief system, and left the contradiction in place. and never set to resolve the issue, just overlook or ignore it.

Is there another way?

We cannot both be right.

Your right, so we both need to sit and study the words, and come to a view where the words do not contradict itself.

the worse things we can do is do things like change the meanings of words. Like the Calvinist does when he said the word world in John 3 does not actually mean the world. it means something else. According to them, that solves the contradiction. Yet it does not. the contradiction remains in place.

This is what I meant when I said we use out belief system to interpret the word instead of vice versa.

 

[GracePeace]

I went outside of the Word for this reason,
which will also apply to all our discussions:

You seem to be able to prove OSAS from some verses in scripture.
I seem to be able to prove that this is not taught in the NT.

In some places it seems as though Jesus is saying WE WILL NEVER PERISH.
In other places it seems as though Jesus is stating that if we don't ABIDE in Him, we will be thrown away.

HOW can we determine who is correct?
Is there another way?

We cannot both be right.

The balance of evidence is on the side of rejecting OSAS, I think, even though maybe we should have a trust in God as if it were not the case.

 

[GodsGrace]

Because the BIBLE tells me it was, you know. the word that says it is inspired by God?

What do you mean BECAUSE THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO?
What does that mean?
MEN wrote letters that BECAME the Word of God...
letters that were chosen by MEN.
The same men that you say are not important.

So...again...
HOW do you know that Jesus resurrected?

THE BIBLE TOLD ME SO.

Again,,,,
The bible speaks in an audible language to you?

The apostles spoke or were inspired what to write.

So you DO trust the Apostles?

The Apostles spoke or were inspired to speak/write.
Fine.
So WHEN did this inspiration end?
Were the ECFs that put together the NT inspired by God?

Were they just plain men?
Then WHY do we trust the NT??

I can trust the bible. I can not trust anyone outside the bible. don;t try to do what the catholics and jews both did and try to equate words of men not inspired by God as equal to the bible.

Answered above.
You say you trust ONLY the bible.
The bible was written BY MEN....
OUTSIDE of the bible since the NT didn't exist yet when the letters were written.
VERY circular reasoning EG.

No, I am trusting God. that when he said his word was inspired and we can trust it, that God put his word together and it can be trusted.

Really.....!
You mean God left heaven and came down here and bound together the NT?
GOD put His word together?
HOW did that come about?

Your reply will be CIRCULAR REASONING.

Peter called Pauls words scripture.

Indeed it was.
He also said PAUL WAS DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND.
2 Peter 3:14-16
14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

1. We are told TO BE DILIGENT to be found spotless and blameless.
IF it's GOD that will not allow us to lose our salvation...
WHY would any of this type of teaching even BE NECESARY?

2. Some of Paul's teachings are difficult to understand....
not listen to this:
Which the unstable DISTORT to their own destruction.

This is why I like to listen to the words of Jesus and do not go looking for loopholes.

so no, I do not agree the RCC put the word together. the buble was complete long before the RCC was even formed..

Extreme ignorance of church history.

Which church was around when the bible was assembled?

WHEN do you believe the CC was formed?

See. You put to much faith in men, why will you not give God credit?

Well, because MEN assembled the bible.
As I stated above ... God did not come down to earth to assemble the bible.
HE worked THROUGH manking....just as He did everywhere else in the bible -
both OT and NT.

Yes, that word was. But read the word. At the end, there were so many false gospels and false prophets. God even had to scold many churches.. and you want me to just trust some man who came after because he called himself part of the church> Thank you but no thank you. I will trust the word of God. INSPIRED WORD.

So tell me....what church fought against the very heresies you speak of above?
Did they just go away on their own?

Do you know what the wor4d inspired means (it literally means God breathed)

Inspire:
1. To animate the mind or emotions.
2. To stimulate and influence.
3. To elicite, create.

and free for today only....

Illuminate:
1. To provide or brighten with light.
2. To clarify.
3. To enlighten --- give knowledge, truth or understanding.

2 Tim 3: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [c]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Most scholars today believe that the biblical writers were illuminated more than inspired.
But whatever...

Does it say here I need other words of other men to become more complete? Does it say I need to listen to men to be complete? Or does it say all scripture was inspired (literally God breathed) and this word I hold in my hands is able to make me complete> lacking for nothing?

Well then, EG, our problem remains.
Since we have differing views
WHO is correct
and WHO is incorrect?

If scripture is so inspired, as you state...,
then God is a God of confusion since He does not give to each the same understanding.

Yes, it's a big problem with Christianity.

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?

I trust God who spoke through them

OK.
So you DO trust the men who assembled the NT?
I thought you said you didn't....

Do I trust God that he wrote it? Of course I do. because I have no reason not to.

But God DID NOT WRITE the NT.
He ILLUMINATED MEN to write it and to assemble it.

One way to test the word is that no part of it contradicts another part. and that it is also taught or consistent with the rest of scripture. That is why a few of the catholic books are rejected, because they do not fit these two requirements.

According to you ALL OF SCRIPTURE contradicts because YOU keep on repeating verses that speak about
eternal and everlasting, etc.

And I keep repeating scripture that clearly states that salvation can be lost.

So...
ONCE AGAIN...
WHO IS CORRECT??

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?

No. They should test what I say, and confirm it is from God. I am but a mere man, My opinions and believe (which could be in error) may get in my teaching.. no one should blindly follow me or anyone.

I have tested what you say
and found it to be wrong.

Now what?

Inspired

Paul said the bereans were more noble because they did not blindly trust him, but tested what he said, am I better than Paul?

How did they test?
There was no NT when this was written about the Bareans...

The Jews were MUCH MORE in agreement as to the Word of God than Christians seem to be today.
May I say again:
Christianity is a mess.

Trust the word. Test my words. Does my words line up with what the word says..

No EG.
YOUR words do NOT line up with what the Word says.
You preach the opposite.

Now what?
WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?

 

[GracePeace]

So tell me....what church fought against the very heresies you speak of above?
Did they just go away on their own?

The same Church that preserved the Trinity, and all his favorite doctrines, also fought OSAS for its first few hundred years. LOL

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The balance of evidence is on the side of rejecting OSAS, I think, even though maybe we should have a trust in God as if it were not the case.

do explain.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What do you mean BECAUSE THE BIBLE TELLS ME SO?
What does that mean?
MEN wrote letters that BECAME the Word of God...

2 Tim 3: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [c]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

can you explain this verse for me. what does it mean?

2 Peter 1:21

for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

And can you explain this verse for me.

letters that were chosen by MEN.
The same men that you say are not important.

Letters chosen By God.

No I give no credit to men..

So...again...
HOW do you know that Jesus resurrected?

The inspired word of God told me he did. And I trust that that word of God is true..

Again,,,,
The bible speaks in an audible language to you?

come on, are you serious? This is getting ridiculous..

So you DO trust the Apostles?

Do I trust their words, they were inspired to write in the bible? yes

Would I blindly follow them, or be like the bereans, and test what they said outside of the inspired words> I would test what they say.

The Apostles spoke or were inspired to speak/write.
Fine.
So WHEN did this inspiration end?

When God said it ended.

Were the ECFs that put together the NT inspired by God?

They did not put the bible together God did.

Each letter when it was written were given to the city it was directed to. Scribes made copies of these letters. and they were added to the scripture the moment they were written.

Were they just plain men?
Then WHY do we trust the NT??


Answered above.
You say you trust ONLY the bible.
The bible was written BY MEN....
OUTSIDE of the bible since the NT didn't exist yet when the letters were written.
VERY circular reasoning EG.



Really.....!
You mean God left heaven and came down here and bound together the NT?
GOD put His word together?
HOW did that come about?

Your reply will be CIRCULAR REASONING.

Indeed it was.
He also said PAUL WAS DIFFICULT TO UNDERSTAND.
2 Peter 3:14-16
14Therefore, beloved, since you look for these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, spotless and blameless,
15and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

1. We are told TO BE DILIGENT to be found spotless and blameless.
IF it's GOD that will not allow us to lose our salvation...
WHY would any of this type of teaching even BE NECESARY?

2. Some of Paul's teachings are difficult to understand....
not listen to this:
Which the unstable DISTORT to their own destruction.

This is why I like to listen to the words of Jesus and do not go looking for loopholes.


Extreme ignorance of church history.

Which church was around when the bible was assembled?

WHEN do you believe the CC was formed?



Well, because MEN assembled the bible.
As I stated above ... God did not come down to earth to assemble the bible.
HE worked THROUGH manking....just as He did everywhere else in the bible -
both OT and NT.



So tell me....what church fought against the very heresies you speak of above?
Did they just go away on their own?


Inspire:
1. To animate the mind or emotions.
2. To stimulate and influence.
3. To elicite, create.

and free for today only....

Illuminate:
1. To provide or brighten with light.
2. To clarify.
3. To enlighten --- give knowledge, truth or understanding.




Most scholars today believe that the biblical writers were illuminated more than inspired.
But whatever...



Well then, EG, our problem remains.
Since we have differing views
WHO is correct
and WHO is incorrect?

If scripture is so inspired, as you state...,
then God is a God of confusion since He does not give to each the same understanding.

Yes, it's a big problem with Christianity.

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?


OK.
So you DO trust the men who assembled the NT?
I thought you said you didn't....



But God DID NOT WRITE the NT.
He ILLUMINATED MEN to write it and to assemble it.




According to you ALL OF SCRIPTURE contradicts because YOU keep on repeating verses that speak about
eternal and everlasting, etc.

And I keep repeating scripture that clearly states that salvation can be lost.

So...
ONCE AGAIN...
WHO IS CORRECT??

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?




I have tested what you say
and found it to be wrong.

Now what?

How did they test?
There was no NT when this was written about the Bareans...

The Jews were MUCH MORE in agreement as to the Word of God than Christians seem to be today.
May I say again:
Christianity is a mess.


No EG.
YOUR words do NOT line up with what the Word says.
You preach the opposite.

Now what?
WHAT IS THE SOLUTION?

when your ready to trust God and not men

let me know

I am done with this silly game..

 

[th1b.taylor]

You are reading into the text what is not there.

Matthew 18:21-35
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English Standard Version
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​

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant​

21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times.

23 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.[a] 24 When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.[b] 25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servant[c] fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ 27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii,[d] and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ 30 He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. 32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers,[e] until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
You stand in scriptural error, sorry, but there is no polite way to express this. Yashuah offers a somple to understand summary in verse 35, if you are forgiven you must forgive.

 

[GracePeace]

Matthew 18:21-35​

​

​

English Standard Version​

​

​

​

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant​

21 Then Peter came up and said to him, “Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?” 22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you seven times, but seventy-seven times.

23 “Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants.[a] 24 When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.[b] 25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 So the servant[c] fell on his knees, imploring him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.’ 27 And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28 But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii,[d] and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ 30 He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. 31 When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. 32 Then his master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?’ 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers,[e] until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
You stand in scriptural error, sorry, but there is no polite way to express this. Yashuah offers a somple to understand summary in verse 35, if you are forgiven you must forgive.

Please explain your reason for believing what I've said about the parable is "error". I don't get it : I literally said the same thing you just said (you've been forgiven, so you must forgive--otherwise, God will rescind His forgiveness).

 

[th1b.taylor]

Please explain your reason for believing what I've said about the parable is "error". I don't get it : I literally said the same thing you just said (you've been forgiven, so you must forgive--otherwise, God will rescind His forgiveness).Your view is Yehovah making n error. Your view is your opinion instead of scriptural fact. You apparently do not believe the hermeneutic principle that all scripture stands on, "No verse, passage, nor collection of verses can be correctly understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it." There are no stand-alone verses in Yehovahś Word to us.

You apparently do not believe the hermeneutic principle that all scripture stands on, "No verse, passage, nor collection of verses can be correctly understood without the light of all scripture shinning on it." There are no stand-alone verses in Yehovahś Word to us.

 

[GracePeace]

OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

If God reacted to something then it means that He didn't know about it or He didn't see it coming. That's not the God of the Bible, He knows everything, He sees everything at the same time, He see everything from the beginning of time to the end of time at this very moment, He is outside of...

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@th1b.taylor I couldn't respond directly to the post, because the post had some formatting issues.

You still haven't told me what you are disagreeing with or why.

What it sounds like is you disagree with the idea that God can rescind forgiveness, because that plainly stated truth renders your view of the rest of the Bible incoherent, but that is not an issue with my view of how the plainly stated truth in the parable ought to be taken, that is an issue with your ability to resolve the plain truth taught in the parable with your "tradition" you follow for reading the rest of the Bible. That is not my issue.

 

[GracePeace]

For those who brag about having been called, and about being elect, how often do you preach or follow Peter, who says, "be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election"? To him, calling and election needs confirmation through correct behavior/reasonable response to God's grace, but all I hear out of you is that it's a "done deal".

Do you share the perspective of Peter, who is the chief of the Apostles, or do you follow your own vain thoughts?