OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[GodsGrace]

1. Luke 15:24 "Again" the father of the man used the word "Again" because from his human perspective, his son died and came back to life. Did he die "NO NO NO" did he come back to life "NO NO NO".
A parable uses metaphoric language, you problem is you're taking it literally and getting yourself all confused.

Jesus used metaphoric language to TEACH SOMETHING.

And what do you mean by the word again being understood from a human perspective??

The Father in the Prodigal Son said his son WAS DEAD AND HAS COME TO LIFE AGAIN.

You can say NO NO NO all you want to but the NT testament says YES YES YES.

AGAIN means he was something BEFORE
then LOST IT
and now has it back AGAIN.

Yes. I'd take LITERALLY what Jesus teaches.

You're making up a different gospel.

2. The good news of the NT is, God is not going to cast all of humanity into the lake of fire as we deserve. But He will save a small number for Himself as a trophy. He chose to save His Elect before He created the world. He wrote our names in His book. That's the best news I've ever heard so I call it "Good news".

1. The names can be blotted out.
Revelation 3:5
5The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.

The one clothes in WHITE WILL NEVER BE BLOTTED OUT.
IF you're not dressed in White....you WILL BE BLOTTED OUT.


Psalm 69:28
28Let them be blotted out of the book of the living; let them not be enrolled among the righteous.

Exodus 32:32-33
32But now, if you will forgive their sin—but if not, please blot me out of your book that you have written.”
33But the Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against me, I will blot out of my book.

There's more but that should be enough.
We certainly CAN be blotted out of the book of life.

Also proving that OSAS is a heretical belief.

3. In Matt 7:24-29 Jesus was speaking about the two kinds of people (wise man, Gods elect) and (a fool, Devils Child). There are only two kinds of people, Gods Children and the Devils Children. You show me were a third type is found and I will bow down and worship you.

I NEVER SAID there's a 3rd type.
However, Matthew 7:24-29 describes 2 types of persons...
THOSE THAT HEAR THE WORDS OF JESUS AND ACTS UPON THEM...The wise.
THOSE THAT HEAR THE WORDS OF JESUS BUT DO NOT ACT ON THEM...The foolish.

I know it's difficult for you to accept that you MUST ACT on the words of Jesus...
but these are HIS words written down forever to be obeyed by His disciples.

Jesus never instructed anyone to take any action, you made that lie up to push your false denominational view.

Please see above.
Must I post Matthew 7:24-29 again??

JESUS SAID WE ARE TO ACT ON HIS WORDS.

To ACT
means TO TAKE AN ACTION.

Perhaps you don't really understand this?

There was no teaching to speak of, tell me where this teaching is that you extrapolated from Matt 7:24-29 there is no instruction or comandment or teaching in any of what He said. It was a simple observation of the two inds of people iun te world. He never instructed the fools (Devils children) to follow him and He never said that His Children would follow the Devil.

THE TEACHING IS THAT WE MUST OBEY JESUS AND ACT ON HIS WORDS.

If you don't see that as a teaching, then I'm afraid no one on this thread can help you.
You have fallen from the faith and are following a different gospel.

2 Corinthians 11:3
3But I am afraid that as the serpent deceived Eve by his cunning, your thoughts will be led astray from a sincere and pure devotion to Christ.

Galatians 1:6-7
6But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 7As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.

You are preaching a different gospel.

So you have tried to make Jesus say something He never said, because you added your wisdom over His an that's highly disrespectful of you.

I posted the verses exactly as they appear in the NT.

Perhaps you're reading a different bible?
Or perhaps you're having difficulty understanding the words of Jesus?

 

[GodsGrace]

Jesus said "My Sheep hear my voice" so you don't hear His voice because you're not a Sheep. Ok thanks for letting me know, that your not a Sheep, it means you must be a Goat. Jesus said there are only two kinds of people, Sheep and Goats.

Did God go on vacation and leave YOU in charge?
I don't think so.

You should refrain from judging the souls of other persons.
You sin every time you post.

I'd say you have your hands full just being concerned with your own salvation since your understanding of the bible is incredibly
confused. You may not even be reformed in theology --- I don't think you know what you are.

I'm not sure if your school ever taught you the fact that Sheep are dumb, I'm just letting you know it's a fact as it seems you don't know this simple fact.

Maybe YOU are dumb CS, being that you're a sheep of Jesus and you believe HE said that sheep are dumb.
What I'm saying is I'm not dumb.

I don't know which god your talking about, saying you're a child of god. And that your god loves the whole world , as my God doesn't love the whole world so we don't believe in the same God. My bible doesn't say that God loves the whole world, so I don't know which book you're reading but it's not the Holy Bible.

This book:

John 3:16
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”

1 John 2:2
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

God wishes that ALL should come to be saved...
but not all will meet His conditions.

1 Timothy 2:4
Who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

My bible doesn't speak of any god who died me for me so I could be saved through him. I don't know who your god died for, you say "us" but that doesn't tell me anything about who your "us" is.

I don't follow a fearful god, my God has no fear of anyone or anything. So the opposite is true, I fear my God but He's not fearful of anything. The God of the Holy Bible commands His children to fear Him, if we don't then we were never His children to begin with.

God is not fearful CS...
YOU are the fearful one.

Do you understand English?

It feels like I'm teaching a child, the basic facts about God. Don't you even know about the terror of God, don't you know that He casts those who don't know Him into the lake of fire while they beg for mercy.

There you go.
The monstrous God you serve.
You'll discuss this with Him at the time of your death.

YOU are MISREPRESTING God...
the CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.

Please read the whole of Matthew 25:14-30 the parable of the talents. It shows how we must fear God and it shows His hatred of those who don't.

Oh. So NOW you say we DO need to fear God?
Make up your mind.
It's very confused.

And there's no need for you to reply.
It's impossible to have a decent discussion with someone who is not familiar with the NT teachings.

 

[GodsGrace]

but this would cause a contracition would it not, How do we determine what causes the contradiction to resolve it

Again, a contradiction. so how do we resolve it?

The word, find the interpretation that allows both statements to not be apposed to each other. That is what is so great about Gods word. it can help us to interpret itself.

if you see a supposed contradiction. You can know, by the fact Gods word is inspired, that there is no contradiction. So you adjust your belief system to make it work out.. Sadly, history shows many have adjusted the word to fit their belief system, and left the contradiction in place. and never set to resolve the issue, just overlook or ignore it.

Your right, so we both need to sit and study the words, and come to a view where the words do not contradict itself.

the worse things we can do is do things like change the meanings of words. Like the Calvinist does when he said the word world in John 3 does not actually mean the world. it means something else. According to them, that solves the contradiction. Yet it does not. the contradiction remains in place.

This is what I meant when I said we use out belief system to interpret the word instead of vice versa.

There's no solution EG if we remain within scripture.
I could go on forever, but you won't accept what I say and I won't accept what you say.

Here is my solution....learning from those that were taught by the Apostels:

Here’s some of what the early Christians wrote about losing one’s salvation:

We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life. . . . The whole past time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger. . . . Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called, we fall asleep in our sins. For then, the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, will thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. . . . And you should pay attention to this all the more, my brothers, when you reflect on and see that even after such great signs and wonders had been performed in Israel, they were still abandoned. Let us beware lest we be found to be, as it is written, the “many who are called,” but not the “few who are chosen.” Barnabas (c. 70-130), 1.138, 139. [His writings were considered for the NT]

[Written to Christians:] Since all things are seen and heard [by God], let us fear Him and forsake those wicked works that proceed from evil desires. By doing that, through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgments to come. For where can any of us flee from His mighty hand? Clement of Rome (c. 96), 1.12. [taught by both Paul and Peter]

The apostates and traitors of the church have blasphemed the Lord in their sins. Moreover, they have been ashamed of the name of the Lord by which they were called. These persons, therefore, at the end were lost unto God. Hermas (c. 150), 2.41.

I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e., the Mosaic Law], and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death—you will by no means be saved. Justin Martyr (c. 160), 1.218.

Knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. . . . Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons. Irenaeus (c. 180), 1.522, 525. [taught by an student of John]


I know, it's a little scary for most to accept.
But church history nonetheless.

 

[GodsGrace]

The balance of evidence is on the side of rejecting OSAS, I think, even though maybe we should have a trust in God as if it were not the case.

OSAS was never taught in the early church.
It was never heard of before the reformation.
Jesus, who told us to be perfect as the Father is perfect,
and who told us that anyone who teaches to break the commandments would not see heaven...
never thought anyone would teach such a doctrine....

If some want to read into scripture what is not there....
there's not too much to be done about it.

Except to post the truth for those reading along.

Also, see my post no. 1143.

There's a way of settling these disputes - but most don't care to confront the truth.

 

[GodsGrace]

The same Church that preserved the Trinity, and all his favorite doctrines, also fought OSAS for its first few hundred years. LOL

Right on.
Simple church history.
Why won't some LEARN church history?
It's too UNCOMFORTABLE would be my guess.
Better to stick to incorrect doctrine because the writers of the NT NEVER IMAGINED some would believe what some of these members here believe. It was just not imaginable to them...

 

[GodsGrace]

2 Tim 3: 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for [c]instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

can you explain this verse for me. what does it mean?

2 Peter 1:21

for prophecy never came by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

And can you explain this verse for me.

Letters chosen By God.

No I give no credit to men..

The inspired word of God told me he did. And I trust that that word of God is true..

come on, are you serious? This is getting ridiculous..

Do I trust their words, they were inspired to write in the bible? yes

Would I blindly follow them, or be like the bereans, and test what they said outside of the inspired words> I would test what they say.



When God said it ended.

They did not put the bible together God did.

Each letter when it was written were given to the city it was directed to. Scribes made copies of these letters. and they were added to the scripture the moment they were written.



when your ready to trust God and not men

let me know

I am done with this silly game..

I'm afraid EG
that YOU are the one that does not trust God...
and does not understand what the NT is trying to tell you.
Because you refuse to go where the road leads you.
I know, it's a scary trip but one that should be taken.

Afraid to learn something new?
This means you're not 100% confident of what you believe and prefer to stay in the dark.

I'm done too.
See you next time around.
Maybe.

 

[GracePeace]

Maybe YOU are dumb CS, being that you're a sheep of Jesus and you believe HE said that sheep are dumb.

To say "dumb sheep" is actually redundant. If you're His sheep, He's saying you can't rely on your own understanding, because it is incorrect, faulty, unreliable, but you must trust Him, the Shepherd.

In that way, yes, we are "dumb", "sheep"--"let the one who thinks he is wise according to this age become a fool".

 

[Christian Soldier]

The problem is not our inability to quantify the "extent" of God's justice, but the use of the term "justice" itself to describe God's doings. The word just doesn't fit at all. Why use it then?

Gods righteous judgement of sinners is beyond fallen sinners like us to understand. There's no point in pretending we have the ability to understand any of Gods attributes, with our fallen totally depraved minds.
Gods ways are past finding out, who can know them = nobody.

There are no words to describe God, but we use words in an attempt to make some sense of the things He does. I agree with you, no words fit at all, but we still try our best to describe what He has revealed about Himself, which is next to nothing.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

There's no solution EG if we remain within scripture.

actually it is the only solution. Otherwise we become followers of men.

I could go on forever, but you won't accept what I say and I won't accept what you say.

Here is my solution....learning from those that were taught by the Apostels:

lol. Thats free if yu want. But if they got it wrong. You will go down with them.

Here’s some of what the early Christians wrote about losing one’s salvation:

We ought therefore, brethren, carefully to inquire concerning our salvation. Otherwise, the wicked one, having made his entrance by deceit, may hurl us forth from our life. . . . The whole past time of your faith will profit you nothing, unless now in this wicked time we also withstand coming sources of danger. . . . Take heed, lest resting at our ease, as those who are the called, we fall asleep in our sins. For then, the wicked prince, acquiring power over us, will thrust us away from the kingdom of the Lord. . . . And you should pay attention to this all the more, my brothers, when you reflect on and see that even after such great signs and wonders had been performed in Israel, they were still abandoned. Let us beware lest we be found to be, as it is written, the “many who are called,” but not the “few who are chosen.” Barnabas (c. 70-130), 1.138, 139. [His writings were considered for the NT]

[Written to Christians:] Since all things are seen and heard [by God], let us fear Him and forsake those wicked works that proceed from evil desires. By doing that, through His mercy, we may be protected from the judgments to come. For where can any of us flee from His mighty hand? Clement of Rome (c. 96), 1.12. [taught by both Paul and Peter]

The apostates and traitors of the church have blasphemed the Lord in their sins. Moreover, they have been ashamed of the name of the Lord by which they were called. These persons, therefore, at the end were lost unto God. Hermas (c. 150), 2.41.

I hold further, that those of you who have confessed and known this man to be Christ, yet who have gone back for some reason to the legal dispensation [i.e., the Mosaic Law], and have denied that this man is Christ, and have not repented before death—you will by no means be saved. Justin Martyr (c. 160), 1.218.

Knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. . . . Those who do not obey Him, being disinherited by Him, have ceased to be His sons. Irenaeus (c. 180), 1.522, 525. [taught by an student of John]


I know, it's a little scary for most to accept.
But church history nonetheless.

I would rather trust what Jesus said, and not what some man who claimed to be a disciple said

But you do what you want to do.

It is sad you do not want to try to study with me to see what Jesus really said.. But hey, You follow your men, I will do what God commanded me to do. And test all spirits.

 

[Christian Soldier]

No, actually, as I have observed is your wont, you're reshaping what others say to preserve your view.

You can reread and try again.

I don't need to read it again, as I remember exactly what you said. You made salvation conditional on our ability to remain faithful to the end. And I told you that, was your private opinion which does not line up with Gods Word.

You force me to either believe in you or God, because one of you is lying.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

OSAS was never taught in the early church.

It was and is taught in scripture. Maybe not the way calvinists teach it, but to say it is not taught in scripture is just a lie.

It was never heard of before the reformation.
Jesus, who told us to be perfect as the Father is perfect,

Yes, He told the pharisees if you want to get to me by your own power. Be perfect. Thats what is required.

If we must be perfect to enter heaven, then we will all see each other in hell. An d heaven will be a lonely place.

and who told us that anyone who teaches to break the commandments would not see heaven...
never thought anyone would teach such a doctrine....

Who teaches people to break commandments? I have not seen anyone do this,,

If some want to read into scripture what is not there....
there's not too much to be done about it.

Ah, But I showed you scripture. It is there. But you already said you did not want to discuss it, you would rather follow men..

Except to post the truth for those reading along.

Lets try to find that truth, i am still open

Also, see my post no. 1143.

There's a way of settling these disputes - but most don't care to confront the truth.

Yes, Through the word.

Not through history.

If histroy shows us who is right, Jesus is wrong. Because histRoy the way the jews wrote it did not agree with Jesus, and jesus destroyed their history and extrabiblical books.. of those who claimed to be taught from God.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You force me to either believe in you or God, because one of you is lying.

That would be great, But your not really much better at believing the word of God.. You have your own false ideas of what Gods word says

 

[RedFan]

Gods righteous judgement of sinners is beyond fallen sinners like us to understand. There's no point in pretending we have the ability to understand any of Gods attributes, with our fallen totally depraved minds.
Gods ways are past finding out, who can know them = nobody.

There are no words to describe God, but we use words in an attempt to make some sense of the things He does. I agree with you, no words fit at all, but we still try our best to describe what He has revealed about Himself, which is next to nothing.

Fair point. Where we differ is in the choice of the word "justice" as a descriptor of His attributes. It just doesn't fit. In fact, it's a terrible descriptor of someone who doesn't punish the sinners themselves, but rather punishes His innocent Son in their stead.

Let's not call a spade a football just because words fail us. I can't describe the smell of coffee. That doesn't warrant me describing it as smelling like roses.

 

[Christian Soldier]

1. You are speculating, whereas I read God sent angels to verify a thing.

2. You're not even approaching answering what I said. I'm seeing that you're not interested in actually discussing the subject, but in maintaining a mere cosmetic appearance of "discussing", and of having answers. I won't entertain you much longer.

You can't defend your position because you have nothing biblical to support your false doctrine. I told you God doesn't speak to us and then instead of admitting that I'm right and your wrong,, you go off on a different subject and say "God sent angels to verify a thing"
Why not admit you were wrong and learn from your mistakes.

 

[Christian Soldier]

I am going by Scripture.
If you disagree with the Scripture, or my view of it, address what you opine are the errors in the exegesis. Coming on here and emptily rattling off your views without addressing specifics of what you claim are misinterpretations is not helpful.

I'm going by scripture as it is written, I was merely pointing out the fact that you always have to add your Word over Gods Word and change the entire meaning of the given scripture. I believe the Bible interprets the bible, god doesn't need your opinion added to what He clearly says.

 

[GracePeace]

I don't need to read it again, as I remember exactly what you said. You made salvation conditional on our ability to remain faithful to the end. And I told you that, was your private opinion which does not line up with Gods Word.

You force me to either believe in you or God, because one of you is lying.

I said what the verse said, and I showed other passages that say the same (eg. Mt 18).

You have a tradition you follow that disallows you from believing these things, and you haven't been able to come up with any justification for rejecting my explanations.

What can I say? Go on your way.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Ro 11 says Gentile believers, grafted in by faith, can also be cut off for unbelief.

Goes with Deut 32:5 "they are NO LONGER His children because of their defect" (they used to becHis children, but are no longer His children), and Hos 1 describes the same dynamic.

Roman 11 never claims that Gentile unbelievers can be grafted in to the branch and then cut off as unbelievers. Can you see how ludicrous it is to suggest the unbelievers can sneak into the body of Christ and Christ not notice them breaking in. Nobody can become a member of Christs body, unless Christ choses them.
To suggest that Christ goes around choosing wicked men me to be members of His body is ridiculous. It means that Christ is gullible and fallible and foolish and He has no ability to discern good from evil.

God is not some long haired hippy going around making stupid mistakes and inviting evil into His body. That's the greatest to God that I've ever heard

 

[GracePeace]

I'm going by scripture as it is written, I was merely pointing out the fact that you always have to add your Word over Gods Word and change the entire meaning of the given scripture. I believe the Bible interprets the bible, god doesn't need your opinion added to what He clearly says.

Zero specifics.

 

[GracePeace]

You can't defend your position because you have nothing biblical to support your false doctrine. I told you God doesn't speak to us and then instead of admitting that I'm right and your wrong,, you go off on a different subject and say "God sent angels to verify a thing"
Why not admit you were wrong and learn from your mistakes.

Lol I have presented every kind of support, and you emptily complain.

I accept you do not like what I've said Scripture clearly says, and that you're not going to accept it. Arrivederci!

 

[GracePeace]

Roman 11 never claims that Gentile unbelievers can be grafted in to the branch and then cut off as unbelievers.

You're just wrong. It explicitly states it.

Romans 11
9You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20That is correct: They were broken off because of unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly notg spare you either.

22Take notice, therefore, of the kindness and severity of God: severity to those who fell, but kindness to you, if you continue in His kindness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24For if you were cut from a wild olive tree, and contrary to nature were grafted into one that is cultivated, how much more readily will these, the natural branches,

Can you see how ludicrous it is to suggest the unbelievers can sneak into the body of Christ and Christ not notice them breaking in. Nobody can become a member of Christs body, unless Christ choses them.
To suggest that Christ goes around choosing wicked men me to be members of His body is ridiculous. It means that Christ is gullible and fallible and foolish and He has no ability to discern good from evil.

God is not some long haired hippy going around making stupid mistakes and inviting evil into His body. That's the greatest to God that I've ever heard

Coming from the guy who believes in Total Depravity, this is rich.