OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[Behold]

LOL Irrespectively, what, pray tell, are the Apostles to teach the "disciples" they are "making", if not all things Jesus had taught the Apostles?

Matthew 28
20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

And yet Paul was not there.... and He wrote most of the Epistles, and all of the Church Doctrine.

So, as i said, you are just posting verses, but have no understanding.

And i asked you, what DEBT of YOURS< has Jesus Paid for you? @GracePeace

 

[Behold]

Remnants of the House of Israel were the first members of the Church.

You mean JEWS..
As the "church" officially began at Pentecost, and all those 3000 were Jews, who trusted in Christ.
Those are the first.

There aren't two Churches.

True, and the Catholic Church, is not the "one true Church".

The Church is every single born again believer.

All the Jewish believers were the Church, then Gentiles joined the Church.

That started at Pentecost, after Matt 27

Paul also says the Gentile believers are part of the commonwealth of Israel, so...

Yet Paul is not in Matt 18.

Paul is the "Apostle to the Gentiles".. who never read Matt 18, as there was not Matthew 18, when Paul was delivering The Gospel.

 

[GracePeace]

Im not objecting, im clarifying that When Jesus is not Yet Crucified, then those verses that appear before that happened, are to be understood in Light of the Cross.

You already admitted the debt forgiven was due to Christ going to the Cross, so, obviously, Christ is projecting into the future when He will already have gone to the Cross, and is leaving instructions behind for that time that is coming (a roughly 2,000 year period).

Have you ever seen this happen?

If Christians do or don't obey Jesus, what is that to me? It's not relevant. Jesus said to do it.

Don't look for it, as any Pastor with an IQ above 12.3 will never do such a thing.

Even PAUL didnt do it..
He sent the fornicator, OUT of the Church.

You should read about that in Corinthians.

That is because Jesus had not dealt with their sin yet., on the Cross.

I've already answered this--Jesus is leaving instructions for the future.

It does not apply to a believer, as Doctrine., because its not.

I'm glad you recognize how fatal it is to your system that you have to deflect and say it doesn't apply to believers today.
Does nothing Christ says before the Cross apply to anyone after the Cross?

For example, if the "brother" offends you 7Ox7 + 1 more, .. do you not forgive?

So, you are writing, more then you are taking the time to read what im writing and consider it.

You're saying wacky things, as you always do--none of it takes much consideration to understand.

You brought up that a debt was paid, so, does that become "irrelevant" now that im asking you about your debt?

So, what DEBT of yours, Has Jesus Resolved for YOU, @GracePeace ?

Is the guy not saved when he is forgiven?
Is the rescinding of the forgiveness, so that he has to pay for his debt by being tormented, not the loss of said salvation?

 

[GracePeace]

And yet Paul was not there.... and He wrote most of the Epistles, and all of the Church Doctrine.

So, as i said, you are just posting verses, but have no understanding.

Who cares about Paul being there or not? How is that relevant?
Christians, to whom this parable applied, existed before Paul.

And i asked you, what DEBT of YOURS< has Jesus Paid for you? @GracePeace

You're not changing the topic.
Was the guy saved when he was forgiven all his debt, and was that salvation not lost when the forgiveness was rescinded?

 

[Behold]

You already admitted the debt forgiven was due to Christ going to the Cross,

and He'd not gone there in Matt 18, as i told you 4x.

I'm glad you recognize how fatal it is to your system that you have to deflect and say it doesn't apply to believers today.

Ive not deflected, but you are not telling the members here, what DEBT Jesus has paid for you..

You're saying wacky things, as you always do--none of it takes much consideration to understand.

Those slow to comprehend..... who cant respond to the topic they chose to pursue with me, eventually defer to brain dead insults.

See you there @GracePeace

Is the rescinding of the forgiveness,

There is no such thing as rescinding forgiveness, once the person is born again.

See, once the person has "passed from Darkness to LIGHT", then its FINISHED< and can't revert.

You can become "fallen from Grace".. or a "Castaway".. and you can lost your faith........many things.. but, the person who is born again, is In Christ "one with God", and that is Eternal.
Behavior or wrong thinking can't stop a BIRTH that has happened.

 

[GracePeace]

You mean JEWS..
As the "church" officially began at Pentecost, and all those 3000 were Jews, who trusted in Christ.
Those are the first.

The New Covenant is made with the House of Israel, so, obviously, they are, in what ever way pleases you to see it, included under that--and Christ said if you someone is unrepentantly sinning to bring them before the Church, in Matthew 18, and, so, the following parable (the one we are discussing) certainly has Christians in view.

True, and the Catholic Church, is not the "one true Church".

What on earth are you going on about? I never once said anything about the Catholic Church.

The Church is every single born again believer.

So, you're proving my point that Christ has Christians in view in Matthew 18.

That started at Pentecost, after Matt 27

Christ is addressing Christians in Matthew 18.

Yet Paul is not in Matt 18.

Irrelevant.

Paul is the "Apostle to the Gentiles".. who never read Matt 18, as there was not Matthew 18, when Paul was delivering The Gospel.

Irrelevant.

 

[ScottA]

This is the type of unsound argument used by Orthodox and Catholics to justify their "traditions"--you find a hole where you think you can stealth your idea in.

No, I'd rather go with what seems clear and what the earliest Church believed.

Unfortunately, that is not the narrow way.

 

[Behold]

Who cares about Paul being there or not? How is that relevant?

Its matters most that you understand that Church Doctrine came from Jesus, personally, to Paul... .to US.

You dont understand this, and that is why your Odd Theology, is opinion based, and has no foundation.

Christians, to whom this parable applied, existed before Paul.

No Cross, No Christians.

Thats a fact.

What you had before the Cross.... were disciples. You can be a disciple of Christ and go to Hell.
Now you know.

So, again.... you've been asked to tell the members here, what DEBT that Jesus has taken care of for you.. @GracePeace

They are watching you run from that question, over 5x now.

That's on you... @GracePeace

 

[GracePeace]

and He'd not gone there in Matt 18, as i told you 4x.

Irrelevant. He knows He would leave, and He's leaving instructions for the Church.
Did He have no forethought or knowledge He would leave or knowledge that He would need to leave instructions?

Ive not deflected, but you are not telling the members here, what DEBT Jesus has paid for you..

Was the guy saved by being forgiven? Was that salvation not lost by having the forgiveness rescinded? Obviously, he did lose salvation thereby because he had to go pay for his sins by being tormented.

There is no such thing as rescinding forgiveness, once the person is born again.

According to you, there isn't; according to Jesus, there is.

See, once the person has "passed from Darkness to LIGHT", then its FINISHED< and can't revert.

Apparently, there's more to it than you allow.
Don't run, answer the passage in question.

You can become "fallen from Grace".. or a "Castaway".. and you can lost your faith........many things.. but, the person who is born again, is In Christ "one with God", and that is Eternal.
Behavior or wrong thinking can't stop a BIRTH that has happened.

Deut 32:5 "they are no longer His children because of their defect"
Hosea 1 "'Where it was said "Not My People", it shall be said, "Children of the Living God"'" : people can unbecome God's children, and then re-become God's children. Same as Ro 11 purports of the Jews who were cut off from among God's people for unbelief and how they can be re grafted back in.

 

[GracePeace]

Unfortunately, that is not the narrow way.

The earliest church, for its first hundreds of years, believed it was the narrow way.
I'm sure they would not take your opinion into consideration.

 

[Behold]

The New Covenant is made with the House of Israel,

Thats a lie.

In fact Paul said of the House of Israel... that "THEY.. .being IGNORANT of God's Righteousness, go about trying to establish their OWN righteousness, which is of the law".

you're proving my point that Christ has Christians in view in Matthew 18.

You believe that Jesus speaking Prophetically, is "right now"..

That's silly.

 

[Behold]

The earliest church, for its first hundreds of years, believed it was the narrow way.
I'm sure they would not take your opinion into consideration.

Who cares about that but you?

Ridiculous.

 

[GracePeace]

Thats a lie.

“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,

In fact Paul said of the House of Israel... that "THEY.. .being IGNORANT of God's Righteousness, go about trying to establish their OWN righteousness, which is of the law".

It's not even relevant : the parable applies to all believers.

You believe that Jesus speaking Prophetically, is "right now"..

That's silly.

Jesus said it applies to all those whom God has forgiven, Jesus's disciples, and Jesus says teach it to all His disciples, which is why we're discussing it now.
It couldn't apply to anyone God had not forgiven.
We are forgiven, so it applies to us.

 

[GracePeace]

Who cares about that but you?

Ridiculous.

Well, to start with, the people who made the film think the same way. LOL

 

[Behold]

Irrelevant. He knows He would leave, and He's leaving instructions for the Church.

Yet ,that was the Future Church, that you foolishly believe was created before Christ died on the Cross.

So, your Theology, is very poor, and lacking any spiritual reality, or facts.

Was that salvation not lost by having the forgiveness rescinded?

Again, Salvation, is "The Gift of Salvation"...

"GIFT"..

"The gifts and callings of God are without repentance"..

That means, that no matter what the person does, God will never take it back, rescind it, or deny later, His "GIFT of Salvation".

Read some bible.
Paul's Epistles.
It'll do you good, and its something new for you, @GracePeace .


The truth is.....Your commentaries have ruined your theology, along with your Cult.


Now one more time.........

What DEBT has JESUS paid for YOU, @GracePeace ???

 

[GracePeace]

Yet ,that was the Future Church, that you foolishly believe was created before Christ died on the Cross.

LOL You are the one arguing that this only applies to people before Christ (so your objection is to yourself), I'm the one arguing that it is a doctrine the Apostles are to teach the Church going forward, and so it applies to all who have been forgiven through faith in Christ, and that salvation is lost because the forgiveness is rescinded.

That means, that no matter what the person does, God will never take it back, rescind it, or deny later, His "GIFT of Salvation".

Yet that very same passage debunks your misunderstanding : Paul tells the Gentiles who've been grafted in through faith that they can be cut off for unbelief!

What DEBT has JESUS paid for YOU, @GracePeace ???

Was the guy saved when he was forgiven all his debt?

 

[th1b.taylor]

So, your view is that the Church was in error for its first few hundred years, so it fought OSAS as a heresy (as part of Gnosticism), but, later, a former Gnostic heretic (Augustine) "restored" the "truth" of OSAS to the Church--not that he Christianized a Gnostic heresy?

How does the unforgiving steward have his sins forgiven, but, afterward, have forgiveness rescinded, so that he has to go be tormented to pay for his sins, if OSAS is true?

You are wrongly applying the parable.

​

 

[GracePeace]

You are wrongly applying the parable.

​

You are wrong for rejecting what is plainly taught in the parable.

 

[ScottA]

Scott, I haven't followed along 100%, but I don't think @GracePeace will be needing a lifeline.
I think he/she is on the right path and trying to find the truth - if not already found.

When there's a question about something important, it's a good idea to see what the Apostles taught to those after them because, sometimes, scripture can be used to support 2 opposing ideas.

OSAS is not found anywhere in the NT.
It is also not found in the early church.

It did NOT come about till 1,500 years after Jesus ascended.

Yes. I'd question such a teaching.

You are referring to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine (perhaps as stated by some 1,500 years after Jesus' ascension). I am not. Nor am I suggesting that Paul or the eleven spoke or taught incorrectly. Not at all.

On the contrary, I am referring to the reality of passing from death to life everlasting, simply defined as "everlasting." Which I might consider debatable if I did not know better. But it is not debatable; and the stumbling block of those who have rationalized the idea of "everlasting" not actually being "everlasting", shows a gross lack of understanding...coupled with fear.

Which begs the question: What is YOUR definition of "everlasting?"

 

[GodsGrace]

I was paraphrasing another member who used the term Christianizing OSAS. I responded by saying that Jesus preached the doctrine of OSAS.

Jesus did not teach OSAS.
Nor did the Apostles.
Nor did those that the Apostles taught.

In the parable of the Prodigal Son, Jesus taught that the eldest son, that had gone away from his father's house,
returned and was FOUND AGAIN.
Luke 15:24
24for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’

Read the words of JESUS carefully....
The son came to life AGAIN...
this means the son
WAS ALIVE
THEN DIED
THEN CAME ALIVE AGAIN.

He was LOST while he was away from his father...
but now he has been found.

I think it would be best to follow the teachings of Jesus.

The problem for those who don't believe in Jesus is, they rely on their own willpower and wisdom to keep themselves saved. This means that God plays no part in keeping them saved. This idea is crazy, it denies everything that God said about it.

Are you a Pelagian?
Who taught you that God plays no part in our salvation?
You mean you think we save ourselves?
Then why the good news?

I wasn't picking on Augustine, I said I don't agree with any man who rejects or denies Gods Word s absolute truth. I don't agree with anyone who preaches a different gospel to the one Christ gave us. I follow the Lord Jesus Christ, I don't follow men so all of those who accuse me of following men are liars, they serve the father of lies.

If you don't follow men,
then why are you following the teachings of A MAN named John Calvin?
Are you aware that you're following the teachings of a man?

God preached predestination and election to salvation, if you don't believe that then you don't believe what the Bible clearly says. I know you hate the truth of the gospel and I get that, it is awful and horrible news for unbelievers but it is the best news that believers will ever hear.

It's the best news believers will ever hear.
What about everybody else?
WHY do you think it's called gospel?
It means GOOD NEWS.

Can you explain exactly what IS the GOOD NEWS in the reformed faith?
Is it good news for everyone or just those that God decides to choose to be saved and for no reason that we can every know?

That doesn't sound like good news to me.

I have round 120 verses to list here and they wouldn't fit, in any case it is evident you don't believe what God said anyway so it's probably a waste of time but I'll just list 3 for now and see how you reject them.

Ephesians 1:4
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love

Ephesians 1:4 Great example of how the reformed twist scripture to suit their needs.
It states:
JUST AS HE CHOSE US IN HIM BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD....

Notice that when the NT speaks about CHOSEN or PREDESTINATION it is always referring to
HOW one is saved
or
PURPOSE for salvation

It never speaks of God choosing FOR salvation.

Ephesians explains that we were chosen IN CHRIST before the foundation of the world.
IN CHRIST

Just like Jesus states: We will be saved IF we abide IN HIM until the end.
This refers to a HOW we are saved.

Not a WHO.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

Please read 2 Thessalonians 2:13 carefully.
We were chosen from the beginning for salvation THROUGH SANCTIFICATION.
THROUGH SANCTIFICATION

Again...this is referring to HOW we will be saved.

Not WHO will be saved.

2 Timothy 1:9
who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

Another good verse.
Please take note....
2 Timothy 1:9 states that we are called according to His purpose.
HIS PURPOSE.

Now we are told that our salvation has a purpose.

This refers to A PUPOSE.
NOT A WHO.

Chosen never refers to A WHO,
but a HOW or a PURPOSE.

God is the One who saves us and keeps us saved, if it was left up to us, then nobody would be saved because we would all go back to serving our lust, in no time at all.

Really?
Then why did Jesus say the following:

Matthew 7:24-29
24“Therefore, everyone who hears these words of Mine, and [t]acts on them, will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
25And the rain fell and the https://biblehub.com/nasb_/matthew/7.htm#fnfloods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.
26And everyone who hears these words of Mine, and does not [v]act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27And the rain fell and the [w]floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell—and its collapse was great.”
28[x]When Jesus had finished these words, the crowds were amazed at His teaching;
29for He was teaching them as one who had authority, and not as their scribes.


Why is Jesus teaching to ACT on His words IF it's God that is just going to do everything and keep us saved?
Why are ANY instructions at all even necessary?

The parable is about God forgiving underserving wicked sinners like me. It's to remind me that I was born dead in sin and totally depraved and I hated God and everything I did was evil continually. But God forgave me all of that and imagine how evil I would have to be if I disobey God and not forgive my brother for a small sin. I would cast such an unforgiving person into the lake of fire, there is no salvation for evil people lie those. They were never saved to begin with.

No CS.
The parable is about forgiveness.
Read it again and don't add your own ideas to it.
Read the NT simply and you'll understand better than having it spoon-fed to you BY MEN.