OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[ScottA]

The earliest church, for its first hundreds of years, believed it was the narrow way.
I'm sure they would not take your opinion into consideration.

Five out of seven of the early churches WERE WRONG to some degree according to Jesus.

To the contrary, according to you it was Jesus who was wrong, for that is what He Himself stated. Meanwhile, you also assume to correct Peter and Paul, who stated and warned of something completely different than you are now advocating for.

 

[GracePeace]

You are referring to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine (perhaps as stated by some 1,500 years after Jesus' ascension). I am not. Nor am I suggesting that Paul or the eleven spoke or taught incorrectly. Not at all.

On the contrary, I am referring to the reality of passing from death to life everlasting, simply defined as "everlasting." Which I might consider debatable if I did not know better. But it is not debatable; and the stumbling block of those who have rationalized the idea of "everlasting" not actually being "everlasting", shows a gross lack of understanding...coupled with fear.

Which begs the question: What is YOUR definition of "everlasting?"

"The life is in His Son" (1 Jn 5:11), and is taken in only by those who remain in His Son by obeying God's command to believe in God's Son and to love others (1 Jn 3:23,24); the life is not retained within those branches that don't remain in the Vine, because the life is not in them, it is in the Vine, the Son, and is granted to them on an ongoing basis as long as they remain in the Son where the life is located.

 

[GracePeace]

Five out of seven of the early churches WERE WRONG to some degree according to Jesus.

To the contrary, according to you it was Jesus who was wrong, for that is what He Himself stated. Meanwhile, you also assume to correct Peter and Paul, who stated and warned of something completely different than you are now advocating for.

He didn't say "you stopped believing OSAS", He said "you know right, and you're not doing right" in Revelation 2-3.

Answer (Mt 18) why the man was forgiven all his sins, so that he was saved, yet had the forgiveness rescinded, so that he lost salvation, if OSAS is true.

 

[GodsGrace]

There you go accusing God of being an evil monster. When did God say He never gave sinners a chance to repent. He commanded everyone to repent,

Why would God give a command persons cannot obey?
Does God not know the creatures He created?
Is He dumb?

Only a dumb father would command his 1 year old son to climb the stairs to the second floor.

When God GIVES A COMMAND, He EXPECTS US TO OBEY.

Don't you believe God is to be obeyed?

but dead people can't respond to His command because they are dead. Don't you believe what God says at all, do you take pleasure in blaspheming the Holy Spirit by accusing Him of being the most evil monster in the universe.

We're not dead CS.
We're alive and able to make a decision FOR GOD.
Ah...but, excuse me, you don't believe in free will.

Your belief system is a mess.

The NT teaches that we are born with a sin nature.
PLEASE show some verse (2 or 3) that state that we are UNABLE to come to God if we want to.

Are you aware that God COMMANDS us to seek Him?

Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

Matthew 7:7-8
7“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.

How would YOU explain the above verses?

Are YOU believing the NT, or a man named John Calvin who INVENTED the unbiblical ideas you believe.

Those who never repent have lived their whole lives blaspheming the Holy Spirit and deliberately disobeying Gods commands and ignoring His warnings and mocking Him and calling Him all kinds of names as you do.

So?
Why are you blaming me?
It's GOD that wants me to be this way.
HE didn't choose me, right?

Messed up theology is what you believe.

Why don't you ask the real question, why don't you ask why God doesn't cast everyone into hell to be tormented for all eterniuty, because that's exactly what we all deserve. Who are you to accuse God of being evil, just because He doesn't save those child raping murderers that you think He should love the same as His own Children. If God did then He would be evil.

Dear CS,
I've asked you this a few times now.

What does it man that GOD IS JUST?
What is JUSTICE?

God is just so He must punish sinners and reward those who do good works. If He rewarded the righteous and wicked equally, then He would be the evil monster you accuse him of being.

But the above is not what Calvinism teaches.
That's what mainline Christians believe.
Those that read the NT and actually understand it.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

1. Oops, you didn't deal with the point I made : this is right after Jesus tells them "bring an unrepentantly sinning brother BEFORE THE CHURCH", so, yes, it has Christians in view.

2. Yeah, Jesus taught His apostles to go disciple the nations, teaching them THIS PARABLE, so it addresses Christians ("so My Father will do to YOU if YOU don't forgive").

3. The only way to be forgiven all your debt is through Christ, so, again, yes, it is about Christians.

I would look at it this way

Jesus forgave us of ALL our debt. And he paid to keep us out of hell (jail) because of all our debt, he never left nor forsook us.

So if we claim to be loved by God. yet refuse to forgive our brother of all his debt, or cast him out because he owes us.. then are we really believers? How can we call ourself children of God. yet we do not return the love of God. and cast people out who have wronged us in so many ways and demand they pay us back or else.

.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I didnt say that Jesus was not a Prophet.
You can read Matt 24-25 and He'll show you that He is...

I said that you can't apply what is given to the House of Israel, as Church Doctrine., @99%

Also, ive asked you what DEBT you have, that Jesus has dealt with.. for YOU.
Do you need to keep trying to run from the question, as i feel the need to keep asking you @GracePeace

This was not applied to the house of Israel, It goes to everyone today..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Who cares about Paul being there or not? How is that relevant?
Christians, to whom this parable applied, existed before Paul.

You're not changing the topic.
Was the guy saved when he was forgiven all his debt, and was that salvation not lost when the forgiveness was rescinded?

No on your last comment.

I do not believe he was saved, Because if he was, he would not act that way to another person.. Especially a brother.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The earliest church, for its first hundreds of years, believed it was the narrow way.
I'm sure they would not take your opinion into consideration.

How would you know what the earliest church even believed? Considering the catholics. of their own admission. Burnt any doccurment that they classified as heresy so no one could read them
Imprisoned anyone who they considered a heretic
For severe heretics, they had them put to death?

 

[GracePeace]

To the contrary, according to you it was Jesus who was wrong, for that is what He Himself stated.

Jesus taught salvation could be lost when He taught forgiveness could be rescinded.

Meanwhile, you also assume to correct Peter and Paul, who stated and warned of something completely different than you are now advocating for.

Paul warned the Jewish believers were storing up wrath for themselves by their hypocrisy, which put them on the receiving end, on that Day, not of eternal life, but of punishment (Ro 2:1-16).

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Jesus taught salvation could be lost when He taught forgiveness could be rescinded.

Jesus never taught this.

He taught the opposite of this..

 

[GodsGrace]

You are referring to the Once Saved Always Saved doctrine (perhaps as stated by some 1,500 years after Jesus' ascension). I am not. Nor am I suggesting that Paul or the eleven spoke or taught incorrectly. Not at all.

On the contrary, I am referring to the reality of passing from death to life everlasting, simply defined as "everlasting." Which I might consider debatable if I did not know better. But it is not debatable; and the stumbling block of those who have rationalized the idea of "everlasting" not actually being "everlasting", shows a gross lack of understanding...coupled with fear.

Which begs the question: What is YOUR definition of "everlasting?"

Lasting forever.

Sure.
As long as we ABIDE.
If we stop ABIDING, then we are no longer in the protective care of Jesus for our salvation.

 

[ScottA]

Lasting forever.

Sure.
As long as we ABIDE.
If we stop ABIDING, then we are no longer in the protective care of Jesus for our salvation.

Apparently you do not know how ridiculous that sounds.

Sooo--according to your beliefs--someone "in Christ" who has already ascended to be with and is therefore already One with the Father, can be "plucked out of His hand", and Jesus lied when He said "they shall never perish."

F-

...I hope you are in Summer School!

 

[GodsGrace]

How would you know what the earliest church even believed? Considering the catholics. of their own admission. Burnt any doccurment that they classified as heresy so no one could read them
Imprisoned anyone who they considered a heretic
For severe heretics, they had them put to death?

EG
The documents are available.
I've read some of them....but there are too many to read.
Try it sometime --- you might get to know the truth.

Don't trust men?
Well, unfortunately for those that don't trust these mere men...
they're the ones that assembled the New Testament for you.

Check it out:

Early Church Fathers

Early Church Fathers: information and documents concerning the early fathers of the church!

www.earlychristianwritings.com

 

[ScottA]

"The life is in His Son" (1 Jn 5:11), and is taken in only by those who remain in His Son by obeying God's command to believe in God's Son and to love others (1 Jn 3:23,24); the life is not retained within those branches that don't remain in the Vine, because the life is not in them, it is in the Vine, the Son, and is granted to them on an ongoing basis as long as they remain in the Son where the life is located.

And there is your stumbling block.

There is no "ongoing basis", as if during times, in God. In God--and those "in Christ in God" there is only ongoing [everlasting] eternity.

How is it that you do not know that those who are in God, though they remain in the world, are not of the world? Your doctrine is lacking the full measure--and therefore, is false.

 

[GodsGrace]

Apparently you do not know how ridiculous that sounds.

Sooo--according to your beliefs--someone "in Christ" who has already ascended to be with and is therefore already One with the Father, can be "plucked out of His hand", and Jesus lied when He said "they shall never perish."

F-

...I hope you are in Summer School!

I don't know what your last sentence means.
Maybe you could reply with some scripture and we could leave summer school behind?

YOU have not ascended yet to be with the Father.
YOU have not even received your salvation yet and will not receive it until the end of your life.
The reason for this is because YOU do not know IF you will still be ABIDING with Jesus at the end of your life.

And it's not MY BELIEFS....
It's what the NT teaches but some refuse to believe - for whatever reason.
Maybe they just can't accept the BURDEN of OBEYING GOD.

And no, no one can PLUCK YOU OUT of God's hand...
but you are free to walk out.
You DID NOT lose your free will when you became saved.
THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH, who ABIDE in Christ.


Romans 8:23-25
23And not only that, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons and daughters, the redemption of our body.
24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?
25But if we hope for what we do not see, through perseverance we wait eagerly for it.

1 Peter 1:5
5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


and as for abiding:

John 15:5-6
5I am the vine, you are the branches; the one who remains in Me, and I in him [f]bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown away like a branch and dries up; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Jesus states:
The one WHO REMAINS IN ME.....
The word REMAINS means it is a continuous action.
It means Jesus believes one could be IN HIM
BUT
NOT REMAIN IN HIM

Jesus goes on to say that IF WE DO NOT REMAIN IN HIM
it means we were IN HIM
BUT
DID NOT REMAIN IN HIM

And what does Jesus say about those persons who DO NOT REMAIN in Him....

They are THROWN AWAY, like a branch and dries up, and they are gathered and thrown into the fire and burned.


Yes.
I may be in kidergarten,
But I LOVE obeying our Lord and heeding what HE teaches.

 

[ScottA]

He didn't say "you stopped believing OSAS", He said "you know right, and you're not doing right" in Revelation 2-3.

Answer (Mt 18) why the man was forgiven all his sins, so that he was saved, yet had the forgiveness rescinded, so that he lost salvation, if OSAS is true.

You are not "rightly dividing the word of truth."

You are speaking from the unsaved side of salvation (as is Matthew 18). Therefore your doctrine is not of salvation attained, but of salvation not yet attained (which when attained, is "everlasting").

 

[GodsGrace]

And there is your stumbling block.

There is no "ongoing basis", as if during times, in God. In God--and those "in Christ in God" there is only ongoing [everlasting] eternity.

How is it that you do not know that those who are in God, though they remain in the world, are not of the world? Your doctrine is lacking the full measure--and therefore, is false.

UNLESS of course,

one does NOT CONTINUE TO ABIDE IN CHRIST.

As Jesus taught and which some refuse to understand.

 

[ScottA]

YOU have not ascended yet to be with the Father.

I am going to stop you right there--because I have. And if you too had ascended to the Father, you would not speak to me this way.

As for Summer School, it is for those who are bored or have some catching up to do.

 

[GodsGrace]

You are not "rightly dividing the word of truth."

You are speaking from the unsaved side of salvation (as is Matthew 18). Therefore your doctrine is not of salvation attained, but of salvation not yet attained (which when attained, is "everlasting").

There are two types of salvation now?

Could we have some scripture?

Seems to me that SAVED means SAVED.

 

[ScottA]

UNLESS of course,

one does NOT CONTINUE TO ABIDE IN CHRIST.

As Jesus taught and which some refuse to understand.

You are blurring the line between one following and one being saved. Both are not saved.