OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[Christian Soldier]

But salvation in Christ for believers is the antithesis of that. Ergo, God's failure to punish sinners (those who believe in Christ) means He NEED NOT punish sinners. So let's try again. Why do you say He MUST punish sinners as a manifestation of His justice?

(As unjust as it is NOT to punish sinners, it is even more unjust to punish an innocent man in their stead. We can get to that later. I don't want to divert focus from my first question of you.)

But your first question is based on the lie that God failed to punish sinners (those who believe in Christ). Don't you even know the basic facts about the work of Christ on the cross.

Christ took my sin and became sin for my sake, so the Father whipped Him and killed Him, because He saw my sin in His Son. So it's a lie to say that God failed to punish the sinners who believed in His Son. The sins of every single believer were imputed to Christ and He suffered unimaginable pain and torture and mockery, in order to pay for every single sin of His people.

So your accusation of God being a corrupt judge, is unjustified and the charge is false. The truth is that god does punish every single sin, either Christ paid for your sin or you will pay for it in hell yourself.

 

[Christian Soldier]

It sadens me all the people that refuse to acknowledge the peace that suprasses all understand, and the faith rest that God promises to those who come to him. Who he makes into a different creature, his children. yet wants us to continue to live in fear..

Yes it is sad, that the vast majority don't know peace. It's not a matter of acknowledging peace, you either have peace or you don't. You can't acknowledge what you don't know.

I saw an interesting bumper sticker, which read "KNOW GOD, KNOW PEACE. NO GOD NO PEACE".

Everyone is invited to come to the Lord, but only certain people ever do. I won't mention who they are as I don't want to discriminate. Gods people fear Him but we don't live in fear. That's for the Devils children. The fearful shall not inherit the Kingdom of God saith the Lord.

 

[GracePeace]

Post a verse from a Bible that says "the early church recognized OSAS as foreign to the Gospel".

And make sure you dont use misuse and twist JUDE's verse, that speaks about "Licentiousness".. as that verse is not stating that Eternal Security is false, its teaching that unsaved Jews, were trying to cause the Gospel to be perceived as "license to sin".

So, the very people you find today, who oppose Eternal Security, are exactly like those unsaved Jews who opposed Paul's Gospel, that JUDE is writing about in His epistle.

In other words, what Jude is explaining, is....... ""They have twisted the Gospel of Grace into a teaching that subverts the hearer into thinking that God's Grace, when taught correctly, is ......(license to sin).""
So, the idea behind this subversion of the Gospel.... is to keep a person from the correct understanding of God's Grace, by causing them to perceive it as " encouraging licentiousness".

Reader, .. "Eternal Security" is not giving anyone a ticket to live like the devil... and that is how its falsely presented by carnal self righteous people who don't understand God's Grace, or the Cross of Christ... so, they twist the understanding of the Gospel to keep you from the Truth of Eternal Security.

Listen....
All that is happening when you recognize Eternal Security, is that you understand that Jesus who Saved you, Keeps you saved.

That's Eternal Security.
Eternal Security is...>>"Jesus who saved YOU.......Keeps you saved"..

And want else could reader? Who else could ?

Thats your Eternal Security........ Its JESUS Himself.

So, when you deny Eternal Security, you are denying that Jesus keeps the born again Christian, saved.

This thread is about how the Church dealt with OSAS for the first few hundred years. Obviously, the first few hundred years of Church history isn't found in the Bible, but try your hand at answering Matthew 18, wherein someone is forgiven all their debt, then, after, the forgiveness is rescinded.

How does that happen if OSAS is true?

 

[GracePeace]

I know you have concluded that the parable is teaching that God does rescind His forgiveness to us if we don't forgive others. But I don't believe the parable is saying that because I don't believe that God ever takes back His forgiveness. Because His forgiveness of our sin was not conditional on our ability to keep His commandments.

Apparently it is conditional, but you go in to the verse thinking otherwise, so you reject what is plainly taught by the Lord.

Jesus purchased redemption and forgiveness for His people, once and for all. God didn't forgive anyone based on their obedience or good works. Gods people were forgiven, because the righteousness of Christ was imputed to those who placed their trust in Him and not in their own good works.

1 Co 10 shows the two (salvation not due to good works, and dying under wrath for sin aftef having been saved) aren't mutually exclusive.

The only way God could rescind His forgiveness is if the Holy Spirit abandons us and leaves us to go back to our own devices. But we know that can never happen because God promise that he would never leave us nor forsake us.

We're literally reading a passage that warns God will rescind His forgiveness if you don't forgive, and you're counseling me to disbelieve it.

 

[GracePeace]

I see you're still struggling with that terrible "if" word. You always take "if" word to mean "I command you" and it just falls flat on it's face and doesn't work. "IF EACH OF YOU" doesn't mean "I command each of you", it's just saying if pigs could fly they would. But we know better don't we??? or do we???.

The parable was a reminder of how much we were forgiven, there is no record of any believer ever refusing to forgive his brother. It just doesn't happen and it never will happen with anyone who is indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

A parable is not an actual true story, this particular parable was given to demonstrate how grateful Gods people should be for being forgiven. There is not a single instance anywhere in the bible or in Church history where a born again believer didn't forgive his brother/fellow servant same thing. It never happened because it's not possible so you're getting all worked up over nothing.

If it couldn't possibly happen, why is Jesus telling us to imagine God doing it?

Is this Jesus's pattern--teaching us things that can never happen, telling us to imagine God in ways that are not in keeping with reality (ie, lying about God), and telling His disciples to go teach that lie the whole world?

What are some of the other examples of Christ doing this?

 

[Behold]

This thread is about how the Church dealt with OSAS for the first few hundred years. Obviously, the first few hundred years of Church history isn't found in the Bible, but try your hand at answering Matthew 18, wherein someone is forgiven all their debt, then, after, the forgiveness is rescinded.

How does that happen if OSAS is true?

Matt 18, is not written to Christians, as there are non in the Chapter.
Its Jesus the Jew, talking to Jews, before He was Crucified.

This is why the chapter is talking about self effort as the end product, vs God's Grace that is to come ONCE Christ provides it on the Cross.

Notice that you read this... forgive "70x7".... and that is random, as what is meant is ......."endlessly"., just as My Father is going to forgive all of YOU, FOREVER.

See, the Cross is endless atonement, Endless forgiveness, and Endless redemption, through Christ.

Its ETERNAL LIFE, not temporary life............ understand?

Its not part time, or temporary.. Its not ... "as long as you behave".... its none of that..
Its... "I came to forgive, forever, and my Blood and my Death, will always do this.".. and that is why Jesus's Sacrifice, that occurred 2000 yrs ago, is able to SAVE YOU, and ME.... TODAY and TOMORROW and FOREVER.

= Eternal Security

What God has provided, is not conditioned on our behavior.......its conditioned on what Jesus has completed, that Jesus said from The Cross... "it is FINISHED">

And that is because "Jesus is the ONE TIME........ETERNAL Sacrifice"........ that never ends, once you have it., and all have it, who are born again.

 

[th1b.taylor]

We know, from Church history, that the Word of God which the Churches lived by compelled them to fight OSAS for its first few hundred years, because it was part and parcel of fighting Gnosticism, because OSAS was not believed in by the early Church, but was foreign to the early Church that followed God's Word, having originated with the Gnostics.

And again, we live by faith and are saved by grace through faith that Yashuah can and will catch us away and deliver us into Heaven. We do not live according to the missteps of those gone before us. We live according to the Living Word of Yehovah.

 

[GracePeace]

Matt 18, is not written to Christians, as there are non in the Chapter.
Its Jesus the Jew, talking to Jews, before He was Crucified.

This is why the chapter is talking about self effort as the end product, vs God's Grace that is to come ONCE Christ provides it on the Cross.

Notice that you read this... forgive "70x7".... and that is random, as what is meant is ......."endlessly"., just as My Father is going to forgive all of YOU, FOREVER.

See, the Cross is endless atonement, Endless forgiveness, and Endless redemption, through Christ.

Its ETERNAL LIFE, not temporary life............ understand?

Its not part time, or temporary.. Its not ... "as long as you behave".... its none of that..
Its... "I came to forgive, forever, and my Blood and my Death, will always do this.".. and that is why Jesus's Sacrifice, that occurred 2000 yrs ago, is able to SAVE YOU, and ME.... TODAY and TOMORROW and FOREVER.

= Eternal Security

What God has provided, is not conditioned on our behavior.......its conditioned on what Jesus has completed, that Jesus said from The Cross... "it is FINISHED">

And that is because "Jesus is the ONE TIME........ETERNAL Sacrifice"........ that never ends, once you have it., and all have it, who are born again.

Actually, Christians are in view :
1. This is just after Jesus teaches to bring an unrepentantly sinning brother before the Church.

2. Jesus taught His disciples to teach everything He taught them to the nations ("teaching them to observe all things")--it's for all His disciples to know.

3. How did the guy get forgiven all his debt? Isn't he a Christian?

 

[GracePeace]

And again, we live by faith and are saved by grace through faith that Yashuah can and will catch us away and deliver us into Heaven. We do not live according to the missteps of those gone before us. We live according to the Living Word of Yehovah.

So, your view is that the Church was in error for its first few hundred years, so it fought OSAS as a heresy (as part of Gnosticism), but, later, a former Gnostic heretic (Augustine) "restored" the "truth" of OSAS to the Church--not that he Christianized a Gnostic heresy?

How does the unforgiving steward have his sins forgiven, but, afterward, have forgiveness rescinded, so that he has to go be tormented to pay for his sins, if OSAS is true?

 

[Behold]

1. Actually, Christians are in view :

Christians are not "in View" until the Cross has Jesus on it.
So, until then, when you read symbolic verses, given to the House of Israel, then dont try to apply those as doctrine for the "Bride of Christ" who is not in those verses.

2. Jesus taught His disciples to teach everything He taught them to the nations ("teaching them to observe all things").

Mark 16

3. How did the guy get forgiven all his debt?

That is symbolic.

So, how do you get forgiven all your sin, is the idea.
Do you know?

Explain it if you think you know, @GracePeace .

 

[GracePeace]

Christians are not "in View" until the Cross has Jesus on it.
So, until then, when you read symbolic verses, given to the House of Israel, then dont try to apply those as doctrine for the "Bride of Christ" who is not in those verses.



Mark 16



That is symbolic.

So, how do you get forgiven all your sin, is the idea.
Do you know?

Explain it if you think you know, @GracePeace .

1. Oops, you didn't deal with the point I made : this is right after Jesus tells them "bring an unrepentantly sinning brother BEFORE THE CHURCH", so, yes, it has Christians in view.

2. Yeah, Jesus taught His apostles to go disciple the nations, teaching them THIS PARABLE, so it addresses Christians ("so My Father will do to YOU if YOU don't forgive").

3. The only way to be forgiven all your debt is through Christ, so, again, yes, it is about Christians.

 

[GracePeace]

That is symbolic.

if you can wave literally anything that is problematic for your view away as "symbolic", then, for the purposes of our conversations, any objection you raise I will wave away as "symbolic" as well.

 

[Behold]

1. Oops, you didn't deal with the point I made : this is right after Jesus tells them "bring an unrepentantly sinning brother BEFORE THE CHURCH", so, yes, it has Christians in view.

AS i told you.. Jesus is not Crucified Yet..... (Matt 27)

No Paul Yet.

No actual Churches yet.

And i'll give you some sound advice........ never bring your past behavior, in front of your Local church... as they will gossip you, out of it.

So, It would be acceptable to bring the "Offending one" to the Pastor(s), and perhaps the Deacons, if they are long standing..

But as Jesus told you to forgive 70X7, you might just refer to that, instead.

2. Yeah, Jesua taught His apostles to go disciple the nations, teaching them THIS PARABLE, so it addresses Christians.

In Mark 16, there are no "churches".

And so, the Apostles and converts were sent into the WORLD, not to the Churches... to "make disciples".. as if they are already "churches", then they are already Disciples.

3. The only way to be forgiven all your debt is through Christ, so, again, yes, it is about Christians.

What is your debt?, that Christ has been given to the Cross to Deal with, @GracePeace ?

 

[Behold]

if you can wave literally anything that is problematic for your view away as "symbolic",

Your view is not "problematic" for me, its problematic for you.

 

[GracePeace]

Christians are not "in View" until the Cross has Jesus on it.

LOL So, Jesus cannot speak to the future at all?
Jesus says He's going to come back and judge, but that doesn't apply to the Church, because it addresses the future?

And Jesus has no ability to address both the disciples who existed then AND disciples who will exist in the future?

 

[Behold]

LOL So, Jesus cannot speak to the future at all?

I didnt say that Jesus was not a Prophet.
You can read Matt 24-25 and He'll show you that He is...

I said that you can't apply what is given to the House of Israel, as Church Doctrine., @99%

Also, ive asked you what DEBT you have, that Jesus has dealt with.. for YOU.
Do you need to keep trying to run from the question, as i feel the need to keep asking you @GracePeace

 

[GracePeace]

AS i told you.. Jesus is not Crucified Yet..... (Matt 27)

No Paul Yet.

No actual Churches yet.

How is this relevant?
Christ knew there would be Churches, and told His Apostles to go and disciple the nations, teaching them the things He taught them--therefore, this parable was to go out to the nations being discipled, therefore it applies to them.

I don't understand how you think you're making a valid objection.

So, It would be acceptable to bring the "Offending one" to the Pastor(s), and perhaps the Deacons, if they are long standing..

But as Jesus told you to forgive 70X7, you might just refer to that, instead.

Jesus says bring an unrepentantly sinning brother before the Church, so Christians are in view.
Jesus refers to CURRENTLY unrepentant sinning brothers, NOT to "past behavior".

You need to keep your objections in better order, don't misunderstand and misrepresent people so you can have an easier argument to argue against.

In Mark 16, there are no "churches".

Irrelevant. The parable was to be taught to all Jesus's disciples--and here we are talking about it because they obeyed. It applies to us.

What is your debt?, that Christ has been given to the Cross to Deal with, @GracePeace ?

That is not the locus of this discussion, so I won't let you change the topic to evade, only the dynamic that forgiveness can be granted (salvation), and then rescinded (loss of said salvation), and that the loss of salvation is due to behavior.

 

[GracePeace]

I didnt say that Jesus was not a Prophet.
You can read Matt 24-25 and He'll show you that He is...

I said that you can't apply what is given to the House of Israel, as Church Doctrine.

Also, ive asked you what DEBT you have, that Jesus has dealt with..
Do you need to keep trying to run from the question, as i feel the need to keep asking you @GracePeace

Remnants of the House of Israel were the first members of the Church.
There aren't two Churches.
All the Jewish believers were the Church, then Gentiles joined the Church.
Paul also says the Gentile believers are part of the commonwealth of Israel, so...

 

[GracePeace]

And so, the Apostles and converts were sent into the WORLD, not to the Churches... to "make disciples".. as if they are already "churches", then they are already Disciples.

LOL Irrespectively, what, pray tell, are the Apostles to teach the "disciples" they are "making", if not all things Jesus had taught the Apostles?

Matthew 28
20teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

 

[Behold]

I don't understand how you think you're making a valid objection.

Im not objecting, im clarifying that When Jesus is not Yet Crucified, then those verses that appear before that happened, are to be understood in Light of the Cross.

Jesus says bring an unrepentantly sinning brother before the Church, so Christians are in view.

Have you ever seen this happen?

Don't look for it, as any Pastor with an IQ above 12.3 will never do such a thing.

Even PAUL didnt do it..
He sent the fornicator, OUT of the Church.

You should read about that in Corinthians.
Do you own a bible?

Jesus refers to CURRENTLY unrepentant sinning brothers, NOT to "past behavior".

That is because Jesus had not dealt with their sin yet., on the Cross.

You need to keep your objections in better order, don't misunderstand and misrepresent people so you can have an easier argument to argue against.

If you read more carefully, you'll not keep having that issue.

Irrelevant. The parable was to be taught to all Jesus's disciples--and here we are talking about it because they obeyed. It applies to us.

It does not apply to a believer, as Doctrine., because its not.

For example, if the "brother" offends you 7Ox7 + 1 more, .. do you not forgive?

So, you are writing, more then you are taking the time to read what im writing and consider it.

That is not the locus of this discussion, so I won't let you change the topic to evade,

You brought up that a debt was paid, so, does that become "irrelevant" now that im asking you about your debt?

So, what DEBT of yours, Has Jesus Resolved for YOU, @GracePeace ?