OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[face2face]

I don't cherry pick. I read scripture in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

If you go back and look at all the corrections to the verses you have presented any reading this thread will see this is a false claim on your part.
F2F

 

[Christian Soldier]

When you say "had to be," are you suggesting that there was no other way our omnipotent, all-loving Father could have forgiven mankind's sins short of the brutal death of His Son?

God absolutely had to punish His Son in the most painful way, to pay for the sins of His elect. There was no other way, to save the elect.
We should consider the fact that God is completely separate to His creation, He is nothing like man. He is a mystery, we know very little about why He does what He does, all we know is what He revealed to us. If something about God doesn't sound right or fair, we can rest assured that the fault lies in our understanding of Him.

God is not fair, because He saved some according to His sovereign purpose, if God was fair, He would cast everyone into hell because that's what we all deserve. But the fact tat He chose to save some and pay the ultimate price to do so, shows that He's not like man at all. His was are past finding out and His wisdom is infinitely higher than ours.

 

[face2face]

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:1


So you are saying Christians, (those in Him) who walk according to the flesh are eternally saved?

Yes JLB, there are Christians who walk according to the flesh and it's a warning consistent with Pauls message in Galatians 5.

Note the probation language:

5:7 You were running well; who prevented you from obeying the truth? Ga 5:7.

Those living according to the flesh preventing those from running well!

The danger here was loss of salvation, firstly for the agitator and secondly if they perverted the Gospel!

Mailman cannot speak to the book of Galatians as he cannot to Romans 5-8

F2F

 

[mailmandan]

If you go back and look at all the corrections to the verses you have presented any reading this thread will see this is a false claim on your part.
F2F

 

[face2face]

A person who is not saved, who is not in christ. does not do this,, they may act like a believer for a time, but their true nature will be exposed.

A person can believe they are in Christ and still walk according to the flesh.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes JLB, there are Christians who walk according to the flesh and it's a warning consistent with Pauls message in Galatians 5.

Note the probation language:

5:7 You were running well; who prevented you from obeying the truth? Ga 5:7.

Those living according to the flesh preventing those from running well!

The danger here was loss of salvation, firstly for the agitator and secondly if they perverted the Gospel!

Mailman cannot speak to the book of Galatians as he cannot to Romans 5-8

F2F

I already covered Romans 8 in post #400. Now in regard to Galatians 5:4, the present tense of the word "justified" in Galatians 5:4 implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. But had they fully come to that place yet? They were obviously getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers, but no conclusive evidence that they lost their salvation. That's your eisegesis.

Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self-effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error. If it was a done deal and these Galatians lost their salvation, then it would be superfluous for Paul say in verse 10 - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is? In verse 12, Paul goes on to use hyperbole - As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

 

[face2face]

You can roll your eyes upward as much as you like. The posts speak for themselves!

 

[mailmandan]

You can roll your eyes upward as much as you like. The posts speak for themselves!

I'm sure that I'm not the only OSAS believer on this board who is rolling their eyes at your posts.

 

[face2face]

I already covered Romans 8 in post #400. Now in regard to Galatians 5:4, the present tense of the word "justified" in Galatians 5:4 implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. But had they fully come to that place yet? They were obviously getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers, but no conclusive evidence that they lost their salvation. That's your eisegesis.

An example is what you are doing in this forum. There are those who by faith are working out their salvation by trembling and fear (Recall Rom 11?) while you are teaching a false message of self deception.

If it was a done deal and these Galatians lost their salvation,

You have done it again Mailman - are you oblivious to this? You are not willing to accept the possiblity some had gone back to Judaism having accepted the truth. It's as though your mind cannot fathom even the possibility! A cog stuck! Something not firing in your mind!

Your above words actually define "probation" and "testing", you can't even see it - these are Your words, not mine!

Wow - the deception runs very deep mailman!

F2F

 

[face2face]

I'm sure that I'm not the only OSAS believer on this board who is rolling their eyes to your posts.

Check out your last stumble!

How can you admit the rebuke of Galatians did not have serious consequences? How can you not see the letter and the reception of that letter was paramount for their salvation? You acknowledge the warnings, but you don't. You make no sense! You are willing to categorise believers / unbelievers saved / unsaved genuine / non genuine but OSAS applies to everyone who believes?

 

[Christian Soldier]

I'm not sure where you are getting this from?

You are yet to deal with Hebrews 5:7 and Romans 6:9

So you believe God was punishing Himself?

I'm asking why does the True Gospel focus in on the death of the Lord?

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Roamsn 5:10

I ask you again, why is the true Gospel so focused on the death of Jesus?

1. The dominion of death was in Christ
2. He died completely and dies no more

What did God achieve in the body of Christ in his death?


Ah good!

Okay so you are saying Christ didn't taste death? In other words you believe he didnt actaully die?

Remember you said this as this will highlight the falseness of your Gospel later.


So if death had dominion over him as it does you - what does that say about the nature of Jesus?

No, God raised Jesus - we have already established that - you must bring your words inline with the Apostles!


Lets apply the Biblical use of the word death

The dead know not anything. Ecc. 9:5

For no one remembers you in the realm of death, In Sheol (grave) who gives you thanks? Ps 6:5.

The death is cessation of life which is why God states I am a God of the Living and not the Dead MArk 12:27

You will start to see implications if you try to infer Jesus didnt actually die. This brings the entire Gospel to nought.

F2F

The true gospel does not focus on the death of Christ, the truth is the opposite as usual. The gospel is all about His resurrection and victory over death. You have failed to understand what the different meanings of death in the Bible.
God said to Adam "on the day that you eat of that tree, you shall surely die". So according to your application of the word Adam should have died, that same day.

See, you always need to consider the surrounding text of scripture, before you pull the trigger and ask questions after. So yes, I believe God did take the punishment on behalf of His elect, because none of them are able to endure the punishment.

The death of Jesus would have been absolutely useless, without the resurrection to make it effectual. Many people were crucified, so death is no big deal but life is everything and Jesus made Himself alive. You wrongly claim that God resurrected Him but no, Jesus resurrected Himself. Haven't you read "destroy this temple and I will raise it up again" I'm sure your aware of the fact that Jesus is the Temple of God, so He was speaking about Himself.

Jesus lived a sinless life, so He achieved sinless perfection and God accepted His sacrifice because it was perfect. That's what God achieved through the body of Christ. Christ did taste death, but it never swallowed Him up as it does with men. So death had no power or dominion over Him, it only had the power He gave it to torture Him but it never defeated Him. So it's a different death to the one that men suffer.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Why is Death especially prominent in Romans 5–8?

The noun form thanatos, occurs 22 out of 47 times in Paul (120 in the NT).

Johns Gosepl aslo has a strong focus on Death (19 times).

The verbal form, to die (apothnēskō), is used 23 out of 42 times in Paul (113 in the NT).

I'm wanting / encouraging you to consider why the death of Jesus is so important to the True Gospel.

If there is hidden wisdom in the Word of God which we know there is, what happend in the Lord Jesus Christ on that cross which is so essential in understanding the Treu Gospel

Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; Heb 10:5

So not only is the body of the Lord important its the offering of it which is essential to the True Gospel.

I will persist in trying to get you to enter the Word of God and not project your false teachings on it.

F2F

I'm happy to be corrected an learn, but it has to be the truth and not your private opinion as you keep demonstrating by your interpretations of the scriptures.

The death Christ endure was important, in order for Him to show His power over it. But His power over sin and death is the main message of the gospel.

Thanks for listing those verses where death is used in the bible, but their context is a separate study in itself, sufficed to say the word is used in many different contexts so it can't be applied in the same way in every time.

Again and true to form you have twisted the meaning of Hebrews 10:5, Jesus was speaking about the Church and not His body of flesh. Jesus came to put an end to the Old Testament ordinances, with all the sacrifices and offerings. God desired the Church, to be in the body of Christ and that's exactly what Jesus did. He drew all the elect to Himself and that's where we abide.

 

[mailmandan]

An example is what you are doing in this forum. There are those who by faith are working out their salvation by trembling and fear (Recall Rom 11?) while you are teaching a false message of self deception.

You have done it again Mailman - are you oblivious to this? You are not willing to accept the possiblity some had gone back to Judaism having accepted the truth. It's as though your mind cannot fathom even the possibility! A cog stuck! Something not firing in your mind!

Your above words actually define "probation" and "testing", you can't even see it - these are Your words, not mine!

Wow - the deception runs very deep mailman!

F2F

I already thoroughly covered Romans 11 in post #389. You need to stop acting like a childish agitator and troll. It's getting old. Now in regard to Philippians 2:12, notice that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation. The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition." We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

In regard to "fear and trembling," it pertains to a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 2:11; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and throw me into hell for not being "good enough." That is an unhealthy fear!

Paul uses the same phrase "fear and trembling" in 2 Corinthians 7:15 in which he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the reception of him by the Corinthians "with fear and trembling," that is, with humility and respect for his position as a minister of Jesus Christ. In 1 Corinthians 2:3, we see that Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in "weakness and fear, and with much trembling" in regard to the huge responsibility and critical importance of the work in which he was engaged.

 

[face2face]

The true gospel does not focus on the death of Christ, the truth is the opposite as usual.

he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Again, why does the True Gospel focus on the Body, Death and Blood of the Lord?

F2F

 

[face2face]

The death Christ endure was important, in order for Him to show His power over it. But His power over sin and death is the main message of the gospel.

Wonderful!

How was the power of sin and death removed in Jesus?

 

[mailmandan]

Check out your last stumble!

How can you admit the rebuke of Galatians did not have serious consequences? How can you not see the letter and the reception of that letter was paramount for their salvation? You acknowledge the warnings, but you don't. You make no sense! You are willing to categorise believers / unbelievers saved / unsaved genuine / non genuine but OSAS applies to everyone who believes?

I already thoroughly covered Galatians 5:4 in post #426 but I really did not expect you to understand.

 

[face2face]

I already thoroughly covered Romans 11 in post #389..

No, what you did was focused on the sections that you believe supported your OSAS

You need to stop acting like a childish agitator. It's getting old. Now in regard to Philippians 2:12, notice that Paul said to "work out" your salvation and NOT "work for" your salvation.

Correct. To work out speaks to a probation - a life and faith tested.

The Greek verb rendered "work out" means "to continually work to bring something to completion or fruition."

Again, why is it you provide evidence to support OSAS is false?

We do this by actively pursuing the process of ongoing sanctification, which is the result of being set apart for God's work and involves the process of being conformed to the image of Christ.

Ongoing sanctification - agree!

In regard to "fear and trembling," it pertains to a healthy fear of offending God through disobedience and a righteous awe and respect or reverence for Him. (Proverbs 1:7; Psalm 2:11; Psalm 34:9; Isaiah 66:2) Prior to my conversion, while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I basically saw God as a tyrant who couldn't wait to punish me every time I messed up and throw me into hell for not being "good enough." That is an unhealthy fear!

Okay, so you are now leaning toward probationary salvation not OSAS!

Paul uses the same phrase "fear and trembling" in 2 Corinthians 7:15 in which he refers to Titus as being encouraged by the reception of him by the Corinthians "with fear and trembling," that is, with humility and respect for his position as a minister of Jesus Christ. In 1 Corinthians 2:3, we see that Paul himself came to the Corinthian church in "weakness and fear, and with much trembling" in regard to the huge responsibility and critical importance of the work in which he was engaged.

The background on this page is white but you believe its black though all your words indicate it's white.

Peter understood:

so that the tested genuineness of your faith—more precious than gold that perishes though it is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 1 Peter 1:7

Time stamp - Life of probation tested by trials and by suffering leading to a end time where the entire life is found to be a praise to God at the revelation of Jesus Christ. Start --->Finish = Salvation to those whose faith fails not.

F2F

 

[face2face]

I already thoroughly covered Galatians 5:4 in post #426 but I really did not expect you to understand.

You understand the nature of the rebuke of Pauls letter and the severity on their part, should they fail, and yet you still hold to OSAS?

You remind me of Eve reaching for the fruit wanting to steal His Likeness by taking another way only to find out the Warnings God gave, he actually meant.

It's as though you discredit Him and His Judgements and Warnings as things which do not and cannot apply to disciples of the Lord.

Astounding.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Again and true to form you have twisted the meaning of Hebrews 10:5, Jesus was speaking about the Church and not His body of flesh. Jesus came to put an end to the Old Testament ordinances, with all the sacrifices and offerings. God desired the Church, to be in the body of Christ and that's exactly what Jesus did. He drew all the elect to Himself and that's where we abide.

What is the context...this is teaching you how to read the Word more carefully.

For the blood of bulls and goats cannot take away sins. Heb 10:4.

“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me. 10:6 “Whole burnt offerings and sin-offerings you took no delight in. 10:7 “Then I said, ‘Here I am: I have come—it is written of me in the scroll of the book—to do your will, O God.’ ” 10:8 When he says above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sin-offerings you did not desire nor did you take delight in them”
Heb 10:5–8.

So the Lords body and blood can take away the sins of the World and was an acceptable offering to the Father.

So you have been shown

1. The dominion of death and its condemnation was in Christ (Romans 6:9; Romans 8:1-3)
2. You have seen that through his death, that dominion and condemnation has now been removed
3 The Body of Christ was a suitable sacrifice for sin (Psalm 40:5 “ears you have dug out for me.”) Speaking to his obedience to God's Word
4. God did something in Christ death which broke the law of sin and death

“Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 15:55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
1 Co 15:54–57.

What is the sting of death?
How was the power of sin working in Christ and how did God remove it?

How did God remove sins power through the death and body of the Lord Jesus Christ?

He himself (Jesus) bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed. 1 Peter 2:24

How are your sins represented in the body of Jesus?

F2F

 

[mailmandan]

You understand the nature of the rebuke of Pauls letter and the severity on their part, should they fail, and yet you still hold to OSAS?

You remind me of Eve reaching for the fruit wanting to steal His Likeness by taking another way only to find out the Warnings God gave, he actually meant.

It's as though you discredit Him and His Judgements and Warnings as things which do not and cannot apply to disciples of the Lord.

Astounding.

F2F

You remind me of a childish troll who loves to hurl insults and stir up contention and also who must have the last word in any argument.