OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[face2face]

Oh, I'm not questioning that Calvary was foreknown and planned. I have no doubt of it. That's not my question. WHY WAS IT NECESSARY? Why was Almighty God (who can do anything) unable to forgive mankind's sins in any other way? And if He WAS able, but chose not to, it's time to talk about why that doesn't make Him a bloodthirsty Monster.

Great question RedFan and one I'm discussing with @Christian Soldier who is close to working it out!

This has more to do with knowing God, Who He is and how He operates so to speak (crude language sorry!) but let me put it in Scriptural terms.

The Problem: Paul styles the problem as being "The law of sin and death" "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin by which it brings death is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory [as conquerors] through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Can you see the problem?

Our nature contains a law within it:

1. We inherit mortality which results in death (permanent death)

2. Our nature has a bias to sin

Could God in His Power simply change our nature? Could he just make us Divine Beings at a Word?

He could, however this would not reveal His Righteousness (His Character of Goodness & Severity)

So why was Jesus so brutally murdered in such a gruesome way? "it was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus" Romans 3:26

God required a Victory in Sins Flesh to uphold His Righteousness, to make a show of His Strength and a show if death's weakness!

Paul teaches this clearly in 1 Corinthians 15

15:54 Now when this perishable puts on the imperishable, and this mortal puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will happen, “Death has been swallowed up in victory.” 15:55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 15:57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ! 15:58 So then, dear brothers and sisters, be firm. Do not be moved! Always be outstanding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your Labor is not in vain in the Lord. 1 Co 15:54–58.

For God to remove the Law of Sin and Death from the Earth he raised up out of man the Lord Jesus Christ - the Son of David after the Flesh to Condemn Sin in the Flesh.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 8:2 For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. 8:3 For God achieved what the law could not do because it was weakened through the flesh. By sending his own Son in the likeness (sameness as in Hebrews 2:17) of sinful flesh and concerning sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, Ro 8:1–3.

How did God condemn, have Victory over Sin in the Body of His Son?

He allowed an obedient Son to put his nature to death on the Cross through obeying His God! The Death Jesus experienced because of his sinlessness meant that those who though sinners have faith in his death and resurrection can have life.

Christians hold a powerless Gospel because they do not understand the Victory God had in Christ - They are not able to give God the praise and honour for His Victory bacause they make Christ something he is not!

So how do I know this understanding is true?

Because the Law of Sin and Death in Christ was removed through his death on the cross which means

He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

He died to sin once, though knew no sin!
He had your nature in every respect as this was the only Way God could condemn Sin!
God had the victory in the actual body and death of His Son to show all the World the worth of Flesh (nail it to a cross)

In answer to your question - God revealed the only way He could both uphold and declare His Righteousness and save His Son.

F2F

 

[Christian Soldier]

True

True

I see where you are going astray.

The body in is talking to the literal body of the Lord which God prepared. You are right the body of the church with Christ as its head is correct however the context of Hebrews 10 is the body God prepared as a sacrifice for sin...that body alone is Christ.


You are still yet to grasp the body of Jesus and why it was needing to be put to death.

Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, he (Jesus) likewise shared in their humanity (Second Adam!), so that through death he could destroy the one who holds the power of death (that is, the devil), 2:15 and set free those who were held in slavery all their lives by their fear of death.

Heb 2:14–15.

I've already shown you many times now so you should be able to identify what the false accuser (devil) in this verse.

What holds the power of death? (clue Romans 6:23)

I am trying to hit this on so many angels but you are yet to communiate to me in Gospel language.


We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. Romans 6:9

I'm not sure why you are not catching on? We have already proved death had dominion over Christ while he lived!



At last, I was waiting for this to come

Romans 1 starts with defining the true Gospel with a captial G!

1:3 concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh, Rom 1:3.

I've never had a Christian in this forum get as far as you have, never!

Why was it important Christ be born of a woman; So of Adam, son of Abraham, son of David after the flesh? Think dear Watson ;)



True!

Read Romans 8:1-3; Hebrews 2:14-17; Romans 6:9; 1 Peter 2:24; And the Victory God achieved in 1 Corinthian 15!!!



No, this is not the Gospel Christian - the Victory was God's 2 Corith 5:19

​

F2F

I read the whole of Hebrews 10 and I found it didn't clearly indicate, if "the body prepared" is referring to Christs physical body or His Body as it pertains to the Church. Either way, it doesn't take anything away from the message as both are true at the same time.

The body of Christ didn't need to be put to death because it had some corruption in it. If that's what you're suggesting then there's nothing in the bible to support that view.
The fact that His mother was a descendant of Abraham, means that she inherited original sin. But Jesus was a step Son of Abraham, His Father is God so He didn't inherit any corruption in His flesh.

The opposite is true, His body was perfectly sinless at all times. It was offered as a perfect and spotless Lamb. The Jews would reject any animal which had imperfections, to be offered as a sacrifice. That's why only the perfect sinless body of Christ was the sufficient sacrifice for the atonement of Gods elect.

 

[Christian Soldier]

God is not separate to His creation.

That separation idea actually is a Gnostic teaching.

All things are created of God and from God.
John 1, Colossians 1.

You're either lying, or your just speaking out of ignorance. Either way you're dead wrong.

God is absolutely separate, He is outside of His creation and we have never seen Him or spoken to Him. He is invisible and He is everywhere at the same time.

Born again Believers, can't speak or pray directly to the Father. We have pray through Jesus and He intercedes for Gods elect people. We cannot come int the presence of God, because we still retain some of the corruption and pollution of sin. God would not tolerate any Christian, in His presence, no matter how faithful they are.

I would suggest you do a study to learn about who God is, before you you make any more false claims.
God is a mystery, we don't know anything about Him, other than the small snippet He has revealed to us in the Bible.

He has hidden most things from man, because we can't handle the awful truth about Him. It would blow our minds, so we should be thankful He doesn't reveal any more than He has.

 

[BlessedPeace]

You're either lying, or your just speaking out of ignorance. Either way you're dead wrong.

I know Scripture. God knows I know Scripture.

God is absolutely separate,

You, obviously do not.

Enjoy your day.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Your degree of OSAS spiritual immaturity demands I repost but with such detail a child won't miss it:

1. Paul recites the "Honor Roll of the Saints" (Hebrews 11 KJV)
2. Paul then says their victorious example is proof we can overcome sin also (Hebrews 12:1 KJV)
3. Paul then points to the only way any of us will ever obtain such victory: faith in Jesus (Hebrews 12:2 KJV)
4. Paul then says consider all He endured before any of us say "we can't stop sinning" (Hebrews 12:3 KJV)
5. He finally says if you give up the fight against temptation before you suffer hematohidrosis, don't bother him with your "we can't stop siinning" bulldookey.

You falsely claim we can't overcome sin because you refuse to acknowledge the Biblical distinction between the Just Man and the Presumptuous Man - a Just Man falls down into the pit of sin and cries for deliverance but the Presumptuous OSAS License to Sin crowd deliberately climbs down in it, sits down comfortably among the filth, sways away the uplifting hand of Jesus, and shoves their OSAS License to Sin in His face.

No, I'm offended by the whining, sniveling, hypocritical cowardice of the OSAS crowd which claims to be "more than conquerors" while at the same time getting their butts handed to them whenever a battle with Satan's temptations erupts.

You reject the entire first four verses of Hebrews 12 which tell us:
1. we can overcome just as the cloud of witnesses overcame
2. we can do it by laying aside weights and sins
3. we can lay these aside by looking in faith to Jesus
4. before we whine to Paul "we can't stop sinning" we need to first have painted the ground red with sweat.

Unlike the OSAS crowd which chooses willful ignorance, I acknowledge that we can't overcome sin unless we first "look unto Jesus, the Author and Finisher of our faith" and "work out our own salvation with fear in trembling for it is God that worketh in you" to both give us the desire to lay aside the weights and sins, but also to give us the power to do it, as well.

The Bible says God is a Gentleman Who never forces - He knocks on the heart and asks to enter and dwell.

The OSAS crowd prefers Jesus barge in, cuff a hand, drag em off while they cling to sin with the other hand.

Then what's the point of all those warnings about "repent" and "if you hear His voice, harden not your heart" and "if ye be willing and obedent/if ye refuse and rebel" and "servants you are to whom you obey, whether sin unto death or obedience unto righteousness", etc?

Such arrogance. You willfully sin after receiving knowledge of the truth, yet you think the Sacrifice remains? I suggest you memorize Hebrews 10:26 KJV.

We CAN be "perfect" as Job was "perfect" and as your Father in heaven is "perfect" - which means "perfect in our sphere as He is perfect in His sphere".

The kindergartener and the PhD can both obtain "perfect" scores on the test, while both spheres of educational ability are as far as the one can be from the other - RIGHT OR WRONG?

Those who sound like the devil are of their father the devil - those who sound like God are of the Father, too:
"Thou shalt not surely die".

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die"

Which are you?

Wrong. The Second Death is just like the First Death where the Breath returns to God, the Body to the dust, and the Soul ceases to exist until the one or the other of the two resurrections...but with one exception:

The Second Death is permanent death, eternal death, everlasting death...a death from which there will be no resurrection.

There isn't a single verse in Scripture that says so.

The only "proof" texts you guys have are uninterpreted parables of the Rich Man/Lazarus or misinterpreted passages like "absent from body/present with Lord".

I've got TONS of verses that show the dead know nothing, hear nothing, say nothing, feel nothing, praise nothing, return to nothing, devise nothing, remember nothing, see nothing, etc., but you guys prefer a tiny handful of wrongly derived lies instead of a truckload of truth.

See, that's why you Calvinists are in for a huge surprise on Judgment Day - you read one verse which says "did not choose Me" and ignore all the other verses that say...

"choose ye this day whom ye will serve"
"therefore, choose life"
"seek the Lord while He may be found"
"to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory, honor, and immortality".

If God didn't first choose to get our attention so that we'd look upon Him and see our lost condition, we'd never desire to choose Jesus for deliverance from it.

Those verses actually prove Conditional Salvation - any supposed ideas that they confirm Calvinism result only from misapplying or misinterpreting them.

The problem with your interpretation of Hebrews 11&12 is you failed to acknowledge the most important point in all the verses. That is, all the verses were spoken to saved people as an encouragement to keep running the race. Just like a Football coach, tells the boys "you can do this, don't give up".
None of those verses we given as a recommendation or instructions on how to be saved. You falsely assumed that and jumped to a false conclusion, that's tantamount to adding or taking away from Gods Word.

I rightly claim that no man can overcome sin, because I acknowledge and believe what God said. He said "without Me, you can do nothing". But some wise guy told you that you can prove God wrong and do it your way, good luck with that, you'll need lots of it.

Your analogy of sin, with a man falling in the pit is pitiful. It's not biblical and it's nothing more than worldly wisdom or better known as the (doctrine of demons). Just to prove you wrong, God's favorite person in history, (David) carefully planned how to commit adultery and then carefully planned how to commit murder. He didn't fall into a pit , he clearly planned to go into the pit. So you pitiful theory is a sham, there's nothing in the bible to support such nonsense.

You make God a liar when you accuse His Elect Saints of willful ignorance, regarding our attitude towards our sin. OSAS is Gods Doctrine, we didn't make it up, He created it so your problem is not with us but with God so you should challenge His authority in salvation and show Him what's wrong with it.
You keep contradicting yourself, on the one hand you claim to overcome sin by your wisdom and then turn around and say you look to Jesus to overcome it for you. Make up your mind, is it you or Jesus who overcomes temptation in you. And don't try the joint effort approach, or I will dump the biggest truckload of damning verses to expose your heretical view.

The so called warnings to repent and all the other stuff you tried to misapply, don't support your works based heretical gospel. None of those were given as commandments or instructions. They were all directed at God elect, because they are the only ones who respond, God never offered anything to those He chose to leave in their sin before He created the world.
They can never repent and Gods Word is foolishness to them and they hate God and love their sin and they are blind and deaf and dead in sin. And just to put the icing of the cake they are Satan's prisoners and there's no way He's gonna let them go, no matter how many times they hear the gospel.

There's no point in listing a bunch of verses to support your opinion, when you apply a false narrative to them. That's what we call circular reasoning, whereby, one starts with a false premise then imposes it on all of his following claims. It's not accountable and it refuses to acknowledge, correction or reproof.

Job placed his trust in Jesus Christ, and he was made righteous. Just as every other elect Saint is, so Job was born an unrighteous sinner. Then he was converted and born again, just as the rest of God people are. Salvation is not of man, lest anyone should boast.

 

[Christian Soldier]

I know Scripture. God knows I know Scripture.



You, obviously do not.

Enjoy your day.

You demonstrate willful ignorance, nobody could be so deluded to make such a false claim. You're not a theologian or bible scholar, your just another self proclaimed expert, who knows everything about nothing.

Good luck with that, you'll need lots of it

 

[face2face]

I read the whole of Hebrews 10 and I found it didn't clearly indicate, if "the body prepared" is referring to Christs physical body or His Body as it pertains to the Church. Either way, it doesn't take anything away from the message as both are true at the same time.

Though you understand that section is dealing with unsutiable sacrifices vs. a suitable sacrifice?
I hope you got that much!

The body of Christ didn't need to be put to death because it had some corruption in it. If that's what you're suggesting then there's nothing in the bible to support that view.

Ah, that's the whole point! Psalm 61 cmp Acts 2:27 is Christ could not spend any longer in the grave otherwise?

Correct! Corruption!

I spend more time on this if you want but its plainly obvious.

The fact that His mother was a descendant of Abraham, means that she inherited original sin. But Jesus was a step Son of Abraham, His Father is God so He didn't inherit any corruption in His flesh.

Don't bother with original sin doctrine - focus on the inherited mortality!

Do you know even Christ Glorified stills calls himself the Son of David! Rev 22:16

Pauls calls him the second Adam for the same reason! 1 Corinth 15:45

I could go on but again its plainly obvious Jesus inherited mortal nature the same as you.

I will include your name for emphasis:

Therefore Jesus had to be made like @Christian Soldier in every respect, (WHY?) so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. Heb 2:17.

If you remove his nature you remove the atonement end of story!

The opposite is true, His body was perfectly sinless at all times. It was offered as a perfect and spotless Lamb.

Morally speaking sinnless and perfect however in body he was an aging dying man.

The Jews would reject any animal which had imperfections, to be offered as a sacrifice. That's why only the perfect sinless body of Christ was the sufficient sacrifice for the atonement of Gods elect.

Yes, being sinless made him the perfect sacrifice and due to his obedience by the things he suffered Hebrew 5:8 he required saving from death like you!

5:7 During his earthly life Christ offered both requests and supplications, with loud cries and tears, to the one who was able to save him from death and he was heard because of his devotion. Heb 5:7.

God saved him not only from the Law of Sin and Death and the condemnation of death but he raised him and clothed him in immortality and with eternity.

No doubt you will be sensing the True Gospel is not the one you were taught! We are speaking of the mystery revealed in how God overcame Sin and Death in the body of His Son.

Enjoy

F2F

 

[Christian Soldier]

Though you understand that section is dealing with unsutiable sacrifices vs. a suitable sacrifice?
I hope you got that much!

Yes, we agree on that doctrine so it's quite refreshing to see.

Ah, that's the whole point! Psalm 61 cmp Acts 2:27 is Christ could not spend any longer in the grave otherwise?

Correct! Corruption!

I spend more time on this if you want but its plainly obvious.

I can't go along with this idea that Christ was subject to any kind of corruption.

Don't bother with original sin doctrine - focus on the inherited mortality!

Do you know even Christ Glorified stills calls himself the Son of David! Rev 22:16

Pauls calls him the second Adam for the same reason! 1 Corinth 15:45

I could go on but again its plainly obvious Jesus inherited mortal nature the same as you.

I will include your name for emphasis:

Therefore Jesus had to be made like @Christian Soldier in every respect, (WHY?) so that he could become a merciful and faithful high priest in things relating to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. Heb 2:17.

If you remove his nature you remove the atonement end of story!

Can you please confirm that you believe that Jesus was fully God and fully Man at the same time during His earthy life. If you agree, then you will agree that He also had two natures at the same time. Namely His divine nature and his human nature, if you agree with that as well then you would know that all the work He did to purchase atonement for His people was done in His capacity as an ordinary man.

He suffered pain as a man, He cried as a man, He hungered as a man, He got tired as a man, He was tempted as a man, He wasn't omniscient as a man, (because He didn't know that Lazarus had died until He heard about it) etc.. etc...what I'm trying to say is that while Jesus created David and everyone else as the creator God. He still humbled Himself and didn't employ His divine power to make the work of atonement any easier.

It doesn't make sense to say "if you remove his nature", both of Christs natures were inseparable from each other. He is in heaven right now in the exact same body He left the earth in, He still has the wounds in His hands and feet. So He is still fully God and fully Man, just as He always was on earth. I don't believe that the body of Christ inherited corruption at birth as the rest of humanity did.

The body which Christ came into the world in, had no corruption in itself at all. The corruption and sin of His people was imputed to Him, just as if some took the death penalty for you. It doesn't make them corrupt but they are punished as if they are as corrupt as you.

 

[face2face]

Yes, we agree on that doctrine so it's quite refreshing to see.

I can't go along with this idea that Christ was subject to any kind of corruption.

I'll let you work through that one for yourself.

Highly Messianic!

For you (God) will not abandon my soul (life) to Sheol (grave), or let your holy one see corruption Ps 16:10.

The promise is void if its not possible, right?

Job 21:13 is the way of all men and it was for the Lord Jesus Christ, with one exception! God would not allow him to corrupt in the grave

I'll assume for the moment you can't explain Ps 16:10 and Acts 13:35 confused

I'll continue to push your understanding and appreciation of Christ's humanity!

Can you please confirm that you believe that Jesus was fully God and fully Man at the same time during His earthy life. If you agree, then you will agree that He also had two natures at the same time. Namely His divine nature and his human nature, if you agree with that as well then you would know that all the work He did to purchase atonement for His people was done in His capacity as an ordinary man.

As you know I have provided you maybe 10-12 verses which show you Jesus was in all points tempted in a nature which is precisley the same as yours.

Can you provide me a single verse outlinning hypostatic union?

He suffered pain as a man, He cried as a man, He hungered as a man, He got tired as a man, He was tempted as a man, He wasn't omniscient as a man, (because He didn't know that Lazarus had died until He heard about it) etc.. etc...what I'm trying to say is that while Jesus created David and everyone else as the creator God. He still humbled Himself and didn't employ His divine power to make the work of atonement any easier.

Soon all this will fall away...the original Gospel will provide a deeper more profound truth, one you are yet to realise!

It doesn't make sense to say "if you remove his nature", both of Christs natures were inseparable from each other. He is in heaven right now in the exact same body He left the earth in, He still has the wounds in His hands and feet. So He is still fully God and fully Man, just as He always was on earth. I don't believe that the body of Christ inherited corruption at birth as the rest of humanity did.

The changing from mortal to immortal; from corruptible to incorruptible is spoken of as being clothed (something put on).

For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 1 Corith 15:53


When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”

So the nature of Christ was changed from mortal to immortal; from perishable to imperishable - Christ is the first fruits of them the sleep!

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 1 Cort 15:20

Death in the Bible for those in Christ is referred to as a sleep, as the next waking moment they will be with their Lord!

Can you see your issue?

If death wasn't swallowed up in victory in Christ, then you are still in your sins and the condemnation which you say was not in Christ has not been condemned, him being raised is of no benefit to you at all.

If you say Christ was not clothed with immortality, then he mustn’t have been mortal, and if he wasn’t mortal, then he wasn’t tempted in all points as we are yet without sin. This would mean Christ is disqualified from being a high priest as the High Priest must be taken from among men!

5 For every high priest chosen from among men is appointed to act on behalf of men in relation to God, to offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He can deal gently with the ignorant and wayward, since he himself is beset with weakness Heb 5.

No matter whether you work it forward, or backward, Christ was held under the dominion of death (Romans 6:9) and his nature was condemned to corrupt in the grave (Heb 2:17 Psa 16:10 Acts 13:35) unless he lived a sinless life, and the promise that his Father would redeem him from the grave, would be fulfilled.

he (Jesus) entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his OWN blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.

Just in case you didnt think Jesus didnt need redeeming (read Hebrews 5:7 again!) - he suffered on the cross, shed his blood and an offering to God! By his own blood the Lord "obtained" eternal redemption Hebrews 9:12

Again, remove his corrupt nature - remove redemption!

At some point you will fiund the truth hard to accept, shame we couldnt chat face to face truth is that truth is not always palatable - truth hurts! Knowing this will bring you even closer to Christ and his sufferings!

The body which Christ came into the world in, had no corruption in itself at all. The corruption and sin of His people was imputed to Him, just as if some took the death penalty for you. It doesn't make them corrupt but they are punished as if they are as corrupt as you.

By now, you have read the above reply, and you are seriously thinking about the Lords nature. You are starting to realise you cannot provide a Scripture to show duality of nature and possibly you will start putting one and one together, and the true Gospel of God and its Power will shine!!

F2F

 

[RedFan]

It doesn't make sense to say "if you remove his nature", both of Christs natures were inseparable from each other

Phil 2:7 would disagree. Whatever He "emptied himself" of had to be within His divine nature. Ergo, they were at least partially separable while He walked the earth.

 

[mailmandan]

You don't need a Judge mailman, you are already saved!

Nothing on Genesis 3 and the first pairs probation (no comment?)
You provide James 1:2 & 1 Peter 1:7 both of which show you how a person is "being" saved, a process which also speaks to that great verse in Acts 14:22 strengthening the lives of the disciples, encouraging them to continue in the faith, and saying that through many tribulations we must enter the kingdom of God.

If you found OSAS was false doctrine, would this change your walk in Christ? Would you be more disciplined in these things of God? Would you feel a greater weight of responsibility to your make your calling and election sure?

Would you want to see the result of your faith as though listed in Hebrews 11 These all died in faith—having obtained good report through faith.

What is the good report? Is this not the outcome of a successful probation in life?

I get why you can't speak to the theme of probation as you have been hurt by a cruel system and the remnants of that hurt remain. I notice how often you mentioned RCC in your posts and I understand why the teaching of OSAS is highly valued by you.

What we have discovered in this long drawn-out discussion is faith, is an act of our will. At every turn in this discussion the reality of this fact is written in very verse quoted. In every line God has established it so because of the fundamental truth is it's impossible to please our Father without this act. Regardless the suffering or trail its an act of our will to endure, persist in the hope of Victories which give Him the Glory and Honour.

Only then will we see the salvation of our lives.

F2F

Thank you for a more civilized response this time. In regard to Genesis 3, since you and I are not in agreement about probation you will not find the comment, you are looking for from me. In regard to the process of "being" saved, this pertains to ongoing sanctification, in which we are being saved from the POWER of sin, (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4) but this is not in regard to justification in which we "have been" (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved from the PENALTY of sin. (Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8)

In regard to Acts 14:22, we read in verse 21, when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch. Of course, they would be encouraged to continue in the faith because you never know how many spurious disciples you may have mixed in with the group, as we see in John 6:60-66. Those who truly were His disciples here will go through many tribulations before they ultimately enter the kingdom of God.

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, the apostle Paul points out - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established in the gospel) which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. It's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow faith was not grounded in the gospel to begin with.

If I believed that OSAS was false doctrine, it would not change my walk with the Lord for the better. I serve the Lord out of love and gratitude and not fear and bondage to insecurity. Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I did not believe in OSAS, had no assurance of salvation and was miserable! As a Roman Catholic, I was trusting in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone, so I was trying to work for my salvation and never felt like I measured up/was good enough.

As a believer, I have made my calling and election sure/made sure that I have been called and elected. By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These qualities will confirm it.

Salvation is not probation.
Eternal life is not temporary life.
Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

 

[face2face]

Phil 2:7 would disagree. Whatever He "emptied himself" of had to be within His divine nature. Ergo, they were at least partially separable while He walked the earth.

You mean though he had the privileges of being His Son he chose servitude!

He humbled himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death —even death on a cross! Php 2:8.

Always read the Word in context and don't whatever you do try and force / import man-made teaching!

The passage means he didn't claim the benefits of being His Son but rather choose to be a servant of God.

You should read the Servant prophecies in Isaiah especially 49-53!

This will clear up your misundestanding in no time!

F2F

 

[RedFan]

You mean though he had the privileges of being His Son he chose servitude!

He humbled himself, by becoming obedient to the point of death —even death on a cross! Php 2:8.

Always read the Word in context and don't whatever you do try and force / import man-made teaching!

The passage means he didn't claim the benefits of being His Son but rather choose to be a servant of God.

You should read the Servant prophecies in Isaiah especially 49-53!

This will clear up your misundestanding in no time!

F2F

God was a servant of God? You'll have to explain that one to me.

 

[face2face]

Thank you for a more civilized response this time. In regard to Genesis 3, since you and I are not in agreement about probation you will not find the comment, you are looking for from me.

Well...it's not coming from either of us - its the Word which teaches the principles of probation.

In regard to the process of "being" saved, this pertains to ongoing sanctification, in which we are being saved from the POWER of sin, (1 Thessalonians 4:3-4) but this is not in regard to justification in which we "have been" (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved from the PENALTY of sin. (Romans 5:1; Ephesians 2:8)

I agree, Salvation is past, present and future.

I'll allow Peter to explain:

Who by God’s power are being guarded through faith (willing act!) for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (future).1 Peter 1:5

If you are a partaker in this salvation, as you rightly state, the sanctification process (adding to us virtues) will find the faithful reward of salvation, at his coming!

All the NT teaches this message consistently.

I also understand knowing you believe OSAS, you won't like the word "reward" as you will think it relates to works, but the Scripture presents it in such terms many times over: (I also understand Salvation to be a gift)

Reward “To give, or do something, which one should in fulfilment of an obligation or expectation.”

Rev 22:12 for context! It's coming with him as 1 Peter 1:5 teaches.

In regard to Acts 14:22, we read in verse 21, when they had preached the gospel to that city and made many disciples, they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch. Of course, they would be encouraged to continue in the faith because you never know how many spurious disciples you may have mixed in with the group, as we see in John 6:60-66. Those who truly were His disciples here will go through many tribulations before they ultimately enter the kingdom of God.

Correct

In 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, the apostle Paul points out - Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word (demonstrative evidence of faith being firmly rooted and established in the gospel) which I preached to you--unless you believed in vain. To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose.


It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. It's not hard to find "nominal" Christians mixed in with genuine Christians. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not?

This is why as you say I'm anti-OSAS, as I know there isn’t a person alive on this planet who knows their future. If Christ returned today, yes many may well be saved and the reward/gift given - but don't for a minute assume you are saved while you are in the process of being saved - Paul was extremely wise to phrase these words cautiously and I encourage you to do likewise.

Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow faith was not grounded in the gospel to begin with.

Correct.

If I believed that OSAS was false doctrine, it would not change my walk with the Lord for the better.

That is good to hear!

I serve the Lord out of love and gratitude and not fear and bondage to insecurity.

We have no need for insecurity!

10:36 For you need endurance (confidence) in order to do God’s will and so receive what is promised. Heb 10:36.

Notice the future promise of Salvation? Our confidence is essential in order to do His Will, even while we live in hope of salvation.

Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I did not believe in OSAS, had no assurance of salvation and was miserable!

I have close friends who I taught years ago who to this day suffer from that fear based system.

As a Roman Catholic, I was trusting in works for salvation and not in Jesus Christ alone, so I was trying to work for my salvation and never felt like I measured up/was good enough.

I get it, I do, I've opposed you to balance your message and to ensure your faith is an act of will for God and His Son. Truth is we don't measure up and we are not good enough which is why Paul wrote: But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me. 2 Corith 12:9

We must acknowledge our weakness, in fact the Lord was crucified in weakness

For he was crucified in weakness (corrupt flesh), but lives by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but in dealing with you we will live with him by the power of God. 2 Corith 13:4

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Hebrews 4:15

Understanding our weaknesses and how they relate to the Grace we have been given should provide us a reslient confidence to endure, trust and continue in the things we have been taught knowing the Lord suffered in the flesh ....since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same way of thinking, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin 1 Peter 4:1 @Christian Soldier

As a believer, I have made my calling and election sure/made sure that I have been called and elected. By cultivating the qualities listed in 2 Peter 1:5-7, Christians can be sure that God has called them and elected them. These qualities will confirm it.

Salvation is not probation.

The Scripture presents faith as a journey spanning the life. Adam and Eve had their probation and were judged; Israel had their journey and were judged; The Lord Jesus Christ was tested in the wilderness and was in agony everyday until his Baptism was accomplished - you are on a journey of probation like all those who have gone before you. I'm not a numbers man but 40 is the number of probation - its everywhere if you care to look and God does not change!

Eternal life is not temporary life.

Correct

Jesus is the door. He is not a revolving door.

And no man come to the Father but by him (5 wise / 5 foolish Virgins....man rejected at the wedding feast (no garment!)!...the list goes on and on!)

"The Bride has made herself ready!!!" Rev 19:7

Good exchange.

F2F

 

[face2face]

God was a servant of God? You'll have to explain that one to me.

No, His Son was a servant of God!

Context highlighted in red

3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:3–5.

So what follows is a description of mind, yeah?

7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. Php 2:7.

What did he empty himself of? Yes, He was the Son of God by the Power of the Holy Spirit BUT he was also Born of a Woman and the Son of Man.

Did Jesus choose the form of Sonship of the form of a Servant in mind?

Why was it important he be the Son of Man...before he became the Son of God with Power?

F2F

 

[mailmandan]

I agree, Salvation is past, present and future.

I'll allow Peter to explain:

Who by God’s power are being guarded through faith (willing act!) for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (future). 1 Peter 1:5

If you are a partaker in this salvation, as you rightly state, the sanctification process (adding to us virtues) will find the faithful reward of salvation, at his coming!

All the NT teaches this message consistently.

I also understand knowing you believe OSAS, you won't like the word "reward" as you will think it relates to works, but the Scripture presents it in such terms many times over: (I also understand Salvation to be a gift)

Reward “To give, or do something, which one should in fulfilment of an obligation or expectation.”

Rev 22:12 for context! It's coming with him as 1 Peter 1:5 teaches.

Salvation present is justification and salvation future is glorification. Salvation is not merely a gift at the front door and a reward at the back door that we keep by earning it. NOSAS typically culminates in salvation by works at the back door. In Revelation 22:12, we read - “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to everyone according to his work.

Compare with 1 Corinthians 3:11-15 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; (of reward) but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

So, in addition to receiving the gift of eternal life, which is by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9) believers will also receive rewards and loss of rewards based on their works. It's critical that we understand the difference.

 

[RedFan]

No, His Son was a servant of God!

Context highlighted in red

3 Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves. 4 Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others. 5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Php 2:3–5.

So what follows is a description of mind, yeah?

7 but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. Php 2:7.

What did he empty himself of? Yes, He was the Son of God by the Power of the Holy Spirit BUT he was also Born of a Woman and the Son of Man.

Did Jesus choose the form of Sonship of the form of a Servant in mind?

Why was it important he be the Son of Man...before he became the Son of God with Power?

F2F

You are dodging the issue (inseparability of divine and human natures). If the Son of God was always God, inseparably having both divine and human natures including during his 30-odd years walking the planet, then the Son of God (= God) was a servant to God and God was a servant to God -- which makes no sense. The way out of this dilemma is to allow for separability of the two natures during those 30-odd years, accomplished by emptying Himself of at least some divine attributes.

 

[JLB]

I believe John. I just don't believe your eisegesis. 1 John 2:4 is 'descriptive' of pseudo-Christians/make believers.

You don't post scripture. You state your opinion and tag your opinion with a scripture reference.

I have found in the many years of posting on these forums, that people who do these things have no interest in the truth.



Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. 1 John 2:3-6

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3


Verse 3 gives us the evidence of "knowing Him". "I know Him" is the scriptural way of saying "I have eternal life".
The evidence of knowing Him is keeping His commandments. His commandments are not burdensome (unlike the law of Moses)

Keeping His commandments is the biblical definition of love; loving God and loving our neighbor.


For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

• He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Anyone who says "I know Him" and does not keep His commandments is a liar.





JLB

 

[mailmandan]

You don't post scripture. You state your opinion and tag your opinion with a scripture reference.

I have found in the many years of posting on these forums, that people who do these things have no interest in the truth.



Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.
He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. 1 John 2:3-6

And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. John 17:3

Verse 3 gives us the evidence of "knowing Him". "I know Him" is the scriptural way of saying "I have eternal life".
The evidence of knowing Him is keeping His commandments. His commandments are not burdensome (unlike the law of Moses)

Keeping His commandments is the biblical definition of love; loving God and loving our neighbor.

For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:3

• He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Anyone who says "I know Him" and does not keep His commandments is a liar.

JLB

I posted scripture multiple times and not just my opinion, and I also told you multiple times that keeping His commandments is the evidence that we know Him. I agree with those verses that you continue to cite. I just don't agree with your eisegesis that culminates in salvation by works at the back door.

 

[JLB]

Yes JLB, there are Christians who walk according to the flesh and it's a warning consistent with Pauls message in Galatians 5.

Note the probation language:

5:7 You were running well; who prevented you from obeying the truth? Ga 5:7.

Those living according to the flesh preventing those from running well!

The danger here was loss of salvation, firstly for the agitator and secondly if they perverted the Gospel!

Mailman cannot speak to the book of Galatians as he cannot to Romans 5-8

F2F

That's because those who follow the teachings of man, and unfamiliar with the words of truth.

The truth disrupts the darkness. The entrance of the truth brings light. The darkness hates the light.

Doctrines of demons are built in the mind by deceiving spirits who must protect their stronghold.



Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons. 1 Timothy 4:1


Take heed to yourself and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
1 Timothy 4:16


Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9



Don't ever forget Who you serve! Stand firm in the truth!





JLB