OSAS : Gnostic Heresy

[Eternally Grateful]

I disagree. We are told those in Christ do not wilfully Sin. If they do they are not in Christ and He never knew them.

No. It says they will not habitually sin.. I would not excuse any sin I commit and day it is not willful.

It is wholly contrary to the truth of Salvation from Sin for a Christian to insist they are still in Sin. Impossible.
Because that means they are their former self. And not reborn anew.

So your perfect. You have no sin?

Why would John tell us to confess our sin if we could not still sin?

That verse is speaking in relational terms using,we.

Speaking to Jews or Gentiles who have never heard of their dead in Son condition, those people could rebel and say they are not Sinners.

The sermon preaches to their fallen condition and then presupposes their question regarding being Sinners.

Yes, the last one, if we say we have not sinned.

But the first one is directed to people who claim they are saved and they never sin, If we (they) say they have no sin, they are deceived, and there is no truth in them.

 

[mailmandan]

I see it differently

vs 8 is to believers who claim they are now without sin, John is telling them they are decieved.

Vs 9 is to these same believers to show. not onlyu will we sin, but when we do, we shoudl confess those sins

Vs 10 is to the world. not sinner who denies he has any sin, Much like the jews, who thought they obeyed the law since birth. or the pharisees, who thought they did not need saved. They claimed they had no sin,, so their is no truth in them..

Notice that - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

Certain folks (particularly type 2 works salvationists) seem to misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we "must confess each and every sin that we commit as we commit them" (keep a specific inventory of every sin) as an "additional requirement" to "remain cleansed" and "if we forget a sin, we are toast!" Who could actually write an exhaustive list of every sin they have ever committed or ever will commit? Sin is not only missing the mark by what we do but also what we fail to do. (James 4:17)

Believers "confess" (Greek - homologeó) speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness in contrast with saying that we have no sin or that we have not sinned. (1 John 1:8-10)

 

[BlessedPeace]

No. It says they will not habitually sin.. I would not excuse any sin I commit and day it is not willful.

So your perfect. You have no sin?

Why would John tell us to confess our sin if we could not still sin?

Yes, the last one, if we say we have not sinned.

But the first one is directed to people who claim they are saved and they never sin, If we (they) say they have no sin, they are deceived, and there is no truth in them.

So much for trying to reach you.

You're a Sinner.Who Sins.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So much for trying to reach you.

You're a Sinner.Who Sins.

Nope

I am a child saved by grace.

I still need grace like we all do

I am sorry John was not able to reach you. You are deceived if you think you have no sin..

 

[BlessedPeace]

Nope

I am a child saved by grace.

I still need grace like we all do

I am sorry John was not able to reach you. You are deceived if you think you have no sin..

You are not Saved from Sin when you admit you are a Sinner who Sins.

Yeshua did not reach you. Nor did John.

Redemption!

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Why would John tell us to confess our sin if we could not still sin?

Because even though we should all live our lives being led by the Holy Spirit Who does not lead anybody to do sin.... some will fall away and will need to be restored so the Lord provided a way for restoration back in to being in right standing with the Lord once again.

We can do all things THRU Christ Who strengthens us so those that mature in the Lord will not be doing sinful things... to him that knows to do good and does it not, to him it is sin.

The lie the devil has brought forth that so many have fallen for is that man can get saved, still knowingly do sin and go to Heaven. It's the same con satan ran on Adam and Eve when he told them they would not die spiritually if they disobeyed the Lord.

Romans 8 tells us plainly that if we live after the flesh we shall die but all the false teachers tells us no we shall not die which is the false message satan has had all along.

You are deceived if you think you have no sin..

If we confess our sin the Lord is faithful and just to cleanse us of ALL sin.

Did the Lord lie in 1 John 1:9 ???

 

[BlessedPeace]

Because even though we should all live our lives being led by the Holy Spirit Who does not lead anybody to do sin.... some will fall away and will need to be restored so the Lord provided a way for restoration back in to being in right standing with the Lord once again.

We can do all things THRU Christ Who strengthens us so those that mature in the Lord will not be doing sinful things... to him that knows to do good and does it not, to him it is sin.

The lie the devil has brought forth that so many have fallen for is that man can get saved, still knowingly do sin and go to Heaven. It's the same con satan ran on Adam and Eve when he told them they would not die spiritually if they disobeyed the Lord.

Romans 8 tells us plainly that if we live after the flesh we shall die but all the false teachers tells us no we shall not die which is the false message satan has had all along.




If we confess our sin the Lord is faithful and just to cleanse us of ALL sin.

Did the Lord lie in 1 John 1:9 ???

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What is often missed in Johns teaching is that he was committed to Christs Great Commission.

He was bringing the Gospel to fellow Jews. And telling them the good news that innocent animals no longer need be sacrificed to cover sins over and over again,as the people sinned over and over again.

The sins of the flesh,acts, paid by the flesh and blood of animals.

Whereas the sinful nature within is sin in us. By nature being separated from God by that flesh barrier illusion that this self is glorified.

If they thought that wasn't there,that sin was inward by nature,they were deceived. "We deceive ourselves."

Whereas repentance and redemption from that state is what the blood of that last sacrificial lamb ,Christ,accomplished.

Redeemed from the fallen state of death. Being made new!

You're not new if you still call yourself a sinner who sins,as EG does.
He can claim he's redeemed but he's not when he sees himself as one who sins.

The old is not done away. Because the old sinned.

Christians are not Sinners.

John wasn't saying,believe in Jesus and you'll be Saved from your sins that you'll still commit. Only now they won't send you to Hell.

See that false idea is where the other falsity gets its ammunition from. I.E. Christians think once saved they can sin and be Saved still.


Nonsense.
And not John nor Christ or any Apostle of our Lord ever said that.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Because even though we should all live our lives being led by the Holy Spirit Who does not lead anybody to do sin.... some will fall away and will need to be restored so the Lord provided a way for restoration back in to being in right standing with the Lord once again.

We can do all things THRU Christ Who strengthens us so those that mature in the Lord will not be doing sinful things... to him that knows to do good and does it not, to him it is sin.

The lie the devil has brought forth that so many have fallen for is that man can get saved, still knowingly do sin and go to Heaven. It's the same con satan ran on Adam and Eve when he told them they would not die spiritually if they disobeyed the Lord.

Romans 8 tells us plainly that if we live after the flesh we shall die but all the false teachers tells us no we shall not die which is the false message satan has had all along.




If we confess our sin the Lord is faithful and just to cleanse us of ALL sin.

Did the Lord lie in 1 John 1:9 ???

View attachment 48076

This is just as bad as saying your sinless.

We do not confess to be restored to right standing. We stand on the righteousness of Christ not our own filthy rags. A babe in Christ does not even know his or her sins. That’s why the more mature we become the more sinful we realize we are because we see how selfish we really are. That’s why sanctification takes a lifetime

If confessing every sin is required we are doomed there is no hope

 

[Dan Clarkston]

We do not confess to be restored to right standing.

Speak for yourself... God made me a new creature IN Christ, translating me from darkness into His Kingdom.

Hang in their bud, maybe you'll "get it" someday

If confessing every sin is required we are doomed there is no hope

So you think 1 John 1:9 is a lie???

You should actually believe God's Word and quit rejecting it.

 

[face2face]

In regard to Romans 11:22 (BTW: Roman Catholics are also very fond of using this verse as an alleged proof text for losing salvation).
The Israelites (Jews) were in the olive tree to begin with because they were the "natural branches" and not because they were all saved. Because of their unbelief and hard hearts God removed His gracious hand from them as a people overall and broke them off from His goodness (but only for a time after which they will be restored - Romans 11:24-26). We Gentiles have now been grafted into God's goodness and are the recipients of His blessings. Paul's warning is that we should not become arrogant because we might lose the goodness and blessings of God just like the Jews lost the goodness and blessings of God.

You are well equip at telling half the story mailman and why is it every time you reply, and I mean "every time", you are either avoiding the condition or playing down the warning? You hold an arrogant doctrine in OSAS and even in the red text above you water down the Word of God for your own selfish ambition.

Do not be arrogant, but fear! Rom 11:20.

Fear what mailman?

For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you. Ro 11:21.

Does this sound like OSAS doctrine to you? Does God change mailman? I've shown you the balance of the Character of God how He is Severity & Goodness in perfect harmony. He disciplines His own children and if they persist in sin or unbelief, He is justified to cut them off and regraft if He so desires. You don't fear Him mailman because you have swallowed a hallucinogenic called OSAS and it’s removed all fear. If you could speak to both aspect of God's Character, we would be able to agree, but the truth is seen in your inability to acknowledge His Severity which is why your doctrine presents as being conceited.

For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be *conceited: Ro 11:25.

The context here is a loving and merciful God who will one day graft Israel back into their tree (access to promises of God through Jesus Christ their Messiah) and many will perish when this takes place.

For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor? Rom 11:34.

It's not you Mailman and it's certainly not me!

F2F

*your doctrine proclaims immediate and undeniable salvation, regardless the life lived...thats conceited!

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Speak for yourself... God made me a new creature IN Christ, translating me from darkness into His Kingdom.

Hang in their bud, maybe you'll "get it" someday

Then you should not fear posting salvation. Because God said he will complete what he started.

I’ll get it? Again, I got it 40 years ago.

So you think 1 John 1:9 is a lie???

No

I just interpret it to make the rest of the word of God agree..

You should actually believe God's Word and quit rejecting it.

I believe it, I also trust that God will complete his work in me

You evidently do not. So when you decide to actually trust God. Come talk to me. Until then, we are not even in the same universe.

 

[face2face]

Notice that - "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9) is in contrast to - If we say that we have no sin, (present tense) we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1 John 1:8) and - If we say that we have not sinned, (past tense) we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. (1 John 1:10)

Certain folks (particularly type 2 works salvationists) seem to misunderstand verse 9 to mean that we "must confess each and every sin that we commit as we commit them" (keep a specific inventory of every sin) as an "additional requirement" to "remain cleansed" and "if we forget a sin, we are toast!" Who could actually write an exhaustive list of every sin they have ever committed or ever will commit? Sin is not only missing the mark by what we do but also what we fail to do. (James 4:17)

Believers "confess" (Greek - homologeó) speak the same/acknowledge/agree with God's perspective about their sins and have a settled recognition and ongoing acknowledgment that one is a sinner in need of cleansing and forgiveness in contrast with saying that we have no sin or that we have not sinned. (1 John 1:8-10)

Cherry picking again I see.

And now, little children, remain in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink away from him in shame when he comes back. 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you also know that everyone (not all!) who practices righteousness has been fathered by him.

1 Jn 2:28–29.

There will be those of course who will shrink in shame for various reasons which are stated above. The life of probation is one which focus on practising righteousness and seeking those things which are above and not below. To remain in him, as we have fully proven, and even mailman has posted many times knowingly avoiding for fear of placing a condition on his OSAS...this provides the complete view of a saved life.

F2F

 

[face2face]

@mailmandan

I'd like to move our discussion away from OSAS for a moment and ask you a question.

When you read Genesis 2:4-25 do you see a life under probation? I use the word probation to mean subjection of an individual to a period of testing and trial to ascertain obedience and faithfilness.

He failed "the testing of his faith" by sin after which followed consequences.

Part of that testing period resulted in "the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil" Gen 3:22

Can a person be exalted to glory without having their faith and belief tested?

So, two questions once again

When you read Genesis 2:4-25 do you see a life under probation?
Can a person be exalted to glory without having their faith and belief tested?

I think the answer to both of these questions will reveal a certain truth about your understanding of Who God is and How he Fathers His Children. It will also provide insight into your integrity and honesty concerning the text.

Lets see.

F2F

 

[Christian Soldier]

Man, you are one tough dude to communicate with.

Where did I say crucified? Rather than trying to put words in my mouth use your energies to ask questions of the Word.

Hebrews 5:7 is talking being saved out of death!


This is called running away with your own preconceived ideas...you have a bad habit of doing this.

Romans 6:9 is talking about being released from the dominion of death.

I see what you are trying to force on the text, I think its obvious, but rather than taking this approach, try to understand the Apostles Gospel from their perspective!

If Jesus was held under death dominion (Rom 6:9) and he is praying to be saved out of death (Heb 5:7), one he knows he must suffer - the question is; why was it important he have the same nature as you? What was achieved in Christ, in his death which required the Master to be as the Word teaches "born of a woman" Gal 4:4 ?

I'm leading you to a conclusion Christian, one you might not like, but its the Gospel!


Correct, he didn't sin!

Jesus tells you emphatically he did!

"I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades (grave). Rev 1:18

I could say more on this but for now its important you understand this was a complete death.


No, God said he would "Therefore he says also in another psalm, “‘You will not let your holy one see corruption.’

He died, he didnt stay dead...that the point!

Did God save His son?

Here are the quotes for you to check - Acts 2:24; Acts 3:15; Acts 4:10; Acts 5:30; Acts 10:40; Acts 13:30; Acts 13:34; Rom. 4:24; Gal. 1:1; 1 Pet. 1:21



Can you explain for me what the word dominion means and how it related to Jesus?

6:9 We know that since Christ has been raised from the dead, he is never going to die again; death no longer has mastery (dominoin) over him Rom 6:9.

I'll break it down for you

Fact 1. You have already read the Acts quotes, which showed you God (His Father) raised him from the dead.
Fact 2. Jesus is never going to die again (to imply he died!)
Fact 3. Death no longer has dominion over him (what happened?)

I've highlighted the word "death, die, dead" in the hope of you connecting the dots.

I want you to think about other verses which teach you about his death and how that relates to us.

The true Gospel centres our hope in his life, death and ressurection.

Many think they understand his life, very few understand his death, and so few understand his ressurection and how it relates to the true Gospel.

F2F

OK, so you don't believe crucifixion was a death penalty. If you think it was only to teach criminals a painful lesson, then let them go, then you are dead wrong. Crucifixion was a death penalty, so I don't know why you reject that fact.

Jesus was fully God but He was also an ordinary man at the same time. He had to endure the suffering and the shame of being crucified naked on the cross as an ordinary man. So why are you having difficulty understanding that He prayed as any ordinary man would.

I'm sure you'd pray that God takes that cup away from you, if you were going to be crucified. Jesus had to be punished for every sin which Gods elect committed, from the beginning of human history to the end. So He became sin on behalf of the elect.
We need to get the right context of the word "death" as used in the Bible, it's applied in many different ways. When it was used concerning Jesus, it just meant that His physical body ceased to function because they pierced His side with a spear.

Jesus never died in the same sense of the word as it applies to men. He tasted death but was never really dead, because nobody can kill God. His resurrection meant that, death no longer has dominion over Him of the elect, because the elect will be resurrected just as He was and we will have an glorified immortal body. That's what "death has no dominion" means, Christ defeated death, He raised Himself up and that's exactly what He will do for the elect.

Could you please do a search to find how many different ways the word "death" is used, so we can see how many different applications there are to it in the bible.

 

[RedFan]

Jesus had to be punished for every sin which Gods elect committed, from the beginning of human history to the end.

When you say "had to be," are you suggesting that there was no other way our omnipotent, all-loving Father could have forgiven mankind's sins short of the brutal death of His Son?

 

[face2face]

OK, so you don't believe crucifixion was a death penalty. If you think it was only to teach criminals a painful lesson, then let them go, then you are dead wrong. Crucifixion was a death penalty, so I don't know why you reject that fact.

I'm not sure where you are getting this from?

Jesus was fully God but He was also an ordinary man at the same time. He had to endure the suffering and the shame of being crucified naked on the cross as an ordinary man. So why are you having difficulty understanding that He prayed as any ordinary man would.

You are yet to deal with Hebrews 5:7 and Romans 6:9

I'm sure you'd pray that God takes that cup away from you, if you were going to be crucified. Jesus had to be punished for every sin which Gods elect committed, from the beginning of human history to the end. So He became sin on behalf of the elect.

So you believe God was punishing Himself?

We need to get the right context of the word "death" as used in the Bible, it's applied in many different ways. When it was used concerning Jesus, it just meant that His physical body ceased to function because they pierced His side with a spear.

I'm asking why does the True Gospel focus in on the death of the Lord?

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. Roamsn 5:10

I ask you again, why is the true Gospel so focused on the death of Jesus?

1. The dominion of death was in Christ
2. He died completely and dies no more

What did God achieve in the body of Christ in his death?

Jesus never died in the same sense of the word as it applies to men. He tasted death but was never really dead, because nobody can kill God.

Ah good!

Okay so you are saying Christ didn't taste death? In other words you believe he didnt actaully die?

Remember you said this as this will highlight the falseness of your Gospel later.

His resurrection meant that, death no longer has dominion over Him of the elect, because the elect will be resurrected just as He was and we will have an glorified immortal body.

So if death had dominion over him as it does you - what does that say about the nature of Jesus?

That's what "death has no dominion" means, Christ defeated death, He raised Himself up and that's exactly what He will do for the elect.

No, God raised Jesus - we have already established that - you must bring your words inline with the Apostles!

Could you please do a search to find how many different ways the word "death" is used, so we can see how many different applications there are to it in the bible.

Lets apply the Biblical use of the word death

The dead know not anything. Ecc. 9:5

For no one remembers you in the realm of death, In Sheol (grave) who gives you thanks? Ps 6:5.

The death is cessation of life which is why God states I am a God of the Living and not the Dead MArk 12:27

You will start to see implications if you try to infer Jesus didnt actually die. This brings the entire Gospel to nought.

F2F

 

[face2face]

Could you please do a search to find how many different ways the word "death" is used, so we can see how many different applications there are to it in the bible.

Why is Death especially prominent in Romans 5–8?

The noun form thanatos, occurs 22 out of 47 times in Paul (120 in the NT).

Johns Gosepl aslo has a strong focus on Death (19 times).

The verbal form, to die (apothnēskō), is used 23 out of 42 times in Paul (113 in the NT).

I'm wanting / encouraging you to consider why the death of Jesus is so important to the True Gospel.

If there is hidden wisdom in the Word of God which we know there is, what happend in the Lord Jesus Christ on that cross which is so essential in understanding the Treu Gospel

Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said, “Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired, but a body have you prepared for me; Heb 10:5

So not only is the body of the Lord important its the offering of it which is essential to the True Gospel.

I will persist in trying to get you to enter the Word of God and not project your false teachings on it.

F2F

 

[face2face]

When you say "had to be," are you suggesting that there was no other way our omnipotent, all-loving Father could have forgiven mankind's sins short of the brutal death of His Son?

Good question!

this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. Acts 2:23

Both the brutality and the manner of his death was part of God's plan and foreknowledge, yes.

There was no way of saving carnal nature - it had to be put to death!

We must be Galatians 5:24!

F2F

 

[mailmandan]

Cherry picking again I see.

And now, little children, remain in him, so that when he appears we may have confidence and not shrink away from him in shame when he comes back. 2:29 If you know that he is righteous, you also know that everyone (not all!) who practices righteousness has been fathered by him.

1 Jn 2:28–29.

There will be those of course who will shrink in shame for various reasons which are stated above. The life of probation is one which focus on practising righteousness and seeking those things which are above and not below. To remain in him, as we have fully proven, and even mailman has posted many times knowingly avoiding for fear of placing a condition on his OSAS...this provides the complete view of a saved life.

F2F

I don't cherry pick. I read scripture in context and properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

 

[Christian Soldier]

Is that true?

Some are saying that Jesus was under the dominion of death, this cant be true because He defeated death. So the truth is, death was under His dominion all along.