Once Saved, Always Saved?

[marks]

That is exactly what the NEW OSAS teaches.

Nonsense!! How many times do I hear this absurdity! I believe I'm saved forever, so I have no concern about sin.

Mind-rot!

 

[marks]

So now you're backtracking on three births?

What a dodge!

You teach three births . . . Natural, into the Law, and into Christ. Is that not true? Or is it true?

Much love!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Once Saved, Always Saved?
^OP

Yes.

John 6:
[51] I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

[58] This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

John 14:
[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Heb 10
[14] For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

2 John 1:
[2] For the truth's sake, which dwelleth in us, and shall be with us for ever.

Glory to God,
Taken

You quoted John 14:16. Do you see the word "may" in there? That doesn't imply it is something that happens for certain. And have you never read John 15?

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Would you agree that every branch (person) in the true vine Jesus is saved? I don't see how a branch could be in Him but not be saved. Notice that He says the Father "cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit". Does that verse alone not destroy OSAS? I believe it does. And then Jesus tells His disciples to remain in Him as He remains in them. If it was a certainty that they would remain in Him would He need to tell them to remain in Him? Of course not. That would be ridiculous.

Notice that in John 15:5 Jesus said "IF you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit". That word "IF" means that it's not a certainty that they would remain in Him. And in verse 6 Jesus makes it very clear that it wasn't a certainty by saying "IF you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers" and are "thrown into the fire and burned". Does that sound like a description of someone maintaining their salvation if they do not remain in Christ? How can someone not remain in Christ and still be saved? That doesn't make any sense.

So, you are not recognizing that the verses you quoted are conditional upon a person remaining faithful to Him. Those verses don't explicitly say that, but we can safely assume that because of what is taught elsewhere in scripture. You are interpreting those verses in such a way that is contradicting other scripture. You need to take all of scripture into account when interpreting any given verse or passage.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You are born once naturally, and, if you are, once spiritually. You seem to be using 'born again' as some kind of jargon for some kind of new paradigm or something, I'm saying it's a real birthing, begetting, and it happens once naturally from your parents, and, if you are, once from God Himself.

And there is the man born by the old covenant of law. A natural man, not a spiritual man. Was Jesus referring to these two births? Probably. But one thing's for sure, you can not say there is no natural man birthed by the old covenant. Paul plainly teaches that in Galatians 4:22-31. But you are certainly free to disagree that Jesus was referring to that order of birth.

 

[marks]

But you are certainly free to say this is not what Jesus was referring to in John 3:5-6.

Show the connection beyond "word association". But OK anyway . . . we've already concluded that you hold to these three births, that you are born again again, and I don't see that. I think it's "agreed to disagree" is what they call it. Mostly I really just wanted to verify that this is what you think, since I've never heard that before.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

What a dodge!

You teach three births . . . Natural, into the Law, and into Christ. Is that not true? Or is it true?

No, you're the one dodging. You are the one who says Jesus is talking about natural, physical birth, and the spiritual birth. Yet, you seem to acknowledge the birth by the law, too. That's three births. And so I ask where the second birth of the three is in Jesus' teaching in John 3:5-7.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

You teach three births . . . Natural, into the Law, and into Christ. Is that not true? Or is it true?

Not true in either John 3:3-5 or Galatians 4:22-31. Physical literal birth has nothing to do with either passage. It's stupid to think Jesus has to make it a point to tell Nicodemus that you have to be birthed physically.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It's right out of Galatians 4:22-31 plainly written for us. I don't care what you think Jesus was actually alluding to in regard to flesh giving birth to flesh by water. The important thing is you see and understand what Paul makes clear in Galatians 4:22-31, that the man born of the old covenant (Hagar) will not inherit the kingdom. Only the man born of the New Covenant (Sarah) will. Everybody baptized into Moses via the waters of repentance won't inherit the kingdom. Only those who are also baptized into Christ by the Spirit will. Nicodemus, being a teacher of Israel, should have known this.

Where? Quote the verse, highlight the words.

Why are you being so hardheaded? Here it is, again:

"22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.b 23His son by the slave woman was born according to the flesh, but his son by the free woman was born through the promise.24These things serve as illustrations, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children into slavery: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present-day Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother." Galatians 4:22-26​

Two births, one by the law, one by the promise. What part in the plain words above are you not grasping? Just read it, lol! It's not cryptic. Two births, one natural, one spiritual.

 

[marks]

you can not say there is no natural man birthed by the old covenant.

Regarding being Born of the Law:

Galatians 4:21-31 KJV
21) Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22) For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23) But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24) Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25) For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26) But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27) For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28) Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29) But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30) Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31) So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

That which you choose according to the flesh is bondage.

Regarding Spiritual Birth:

John 3:3-12 KJV
3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4) Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7) Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8) The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9) Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10) Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11) Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12) If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

So that you must be born again if you want to be free.

Regarding Natural Birth:

1 Corinthians 15:35-49 KJV
35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37) And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38) But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39) All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40) There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41) There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42) So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43) It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48) As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49) And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

There is the natural birth to a natural man, and there is the spiritual birth to the spiritual man.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

TWO births of a man IS taught IS Possible.

1) The First Birth of a man IS natural of a mans SEED, without agreement of the one to become born.
2) The Second Birth of a man IS spiritual of Gods SEED, with precisely the individuals agreement, “according to Gods Order and Way, of HOW (the manner), in which that individual man does agree.

Then there IS a ANOTHER OPTION, concerning “A SEED”, that does NOT require a “BIRTH” from a mans SEED.
3) This OPTION, is CALLED; “taking UPON oneself the SEED of an other”.
This OPTION, “Order and Way” is SPECIFIC, is According to Gods Order and Way.
This OPTION, first is APPLICABLE to “taking UPON oneself the SEED of Abraham.
This OPTION, also is APPLICABLE to ONLY those men, “Converted IN Christ”.
This OPTION, Expressly Gives to the man, The SAME SEED (Gods SEED) that was given Abraham.
This OPTION, Expressly MAKES the man, an HEIR of Abraham’s Linage to ALSO Receive “the SAME INHERITANCE”, God Promised Abraham and his Descendants.
The Promise Given Abraham, was LAND. Specifically called the PROMISED LAND.
This Land was FIRST expressly Promised to Abraham’s offspring, “ie ISRAEL”.
This Land EXPANDED to include ANY MAN (ie Israel or Gentile), WHO also Received Gods SEED in him, and thereafter takes upon himself the SEED of Abraham, and thus entitled to Abraham’s offspring Inheritance of the same Land.

Pretty Handy, SINCE that LAND, IS preserved for Jesus’ Earthly Kingdom, where Jesus and ALL IN Christ shall reside for 1,000 years.

1 Chr 20:
[7] Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?

Heb 2:
[16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Rom 4:
[13] For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
[16] Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all...

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[marks]

you can not say there is no natural man birthed by the old covenant.

The natural man is birthed from their mother. They come out that way.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It's not. You are born once from your parents, and, if you are, a second birth from God.

In regard to the kingdom of God there is the man born in the natural way through the covenant of law, and there is the man born in the supernatural way through the covenant of grace. It's right there in Galatians 4:22-31. For Nicodemus, a water baptized follower of John, and other person relying on a relationship with God through law, you must be born 'again', by the Spirit.

 

[marks]

44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47) The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Something you may notice here, there are only two of each set. First man, last man, natural man, spiritual man, earthy, heavenly.

Much love!

 

[Ferris Bueller]

The natural man is birthed from their mother. They come out that way.

Much love!

But that's not the natural man Paul is talking about in Galatians 4:29.

 

[marks]

Not true in either John 3:3-5 or Galatians 4:22-31. Physical literal birth has nothing to do with either passage. It's stupid to think Jesus has to make it a point to tell Nicodemus that you have to be birthed physically.

It seemed like such a simple question.

Oh well. It seems you don't really want to confront the implications of your view here.

Much love!

 

[PinSeeker]

Did you stop reading in Romans at Romans 11:6?

LOL! No, but it was sufficient to answer the specific thing that was being discussed.

You should not interpret any given verse in scripture in such a way that contradicts other scripture.

Agreed. No, it is not "exactly what (I'm) doing" at all. I'm sorry you think so, but no.

Romans 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Right, all His elect.

...it so happens that God wants to have mercy on all people.

Yes, but yet He does not. And it's most assuredly not firstly due to people "not using their God given free will to choose to repent and have faith as God requires." As Paul, quoting Moses, who is quoting God, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." And this is dependent on nothing and no one but God Himself and His will. And, you know Ephesians 2, don't you? Even our faith is a gift of God, rather than something we manufacture in and of ourselves.

Romans 11:6 doesn't support your doctrine at all.

You're welcome to your opinion ~ as if I have anything to say about that... :)

I would hope that we all agree that salvation is by grace and not by works (Eph 2:8-9). But, faith in Christ is not a work. Paul differentiated between faith and works as did James in James 2. So, there's no basis for trying to claim that one's personal faith in Christ is a work in the context of verses like Romans 11:6.

Agreed, but that's most assuredly not what I was doing or attempting to do. I would say, though, that saving faith we have is a work... of God. :) Which I think/hope you would agree with.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Ferris Bueller]

But OK anyway . . . we've already concluded that you hold to these three births

No. Not in the context of the passages I'm citing. Two births: One by the covenant of law, another by the covenant of grace. It's not good enough to be a son born of the covenant of law. You must also be a son born of the covenant of the promise.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

those truly saved will remain/abide if one says there saved yet lives different with out making a effort odds are never saved.

How does what you're saying line up with what Jesus taught here:

John 15:5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. IF you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 IF you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Are those who are in Christ that Jesus referenced figuratively here as "the branches" not saved? Of course they are. You can't be in Christ and not be saved. And, yet, He indicated that those who are in Him are not guaranteed to remain in Him because He said that anyone who does not remain in Him is "like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.".

 

[Ferris Bueller]

It seemed like such a simple question.

Oh well. It seems you don't really want to confront the implications of your view here.

Much love!

I explained and covered it all completely, using scripture. You obviously haven't been reading my posts. And I think it's because you have a problem with being taught/corrected. You don't have a teachable spirit. You don't have to agree with what I'm showing, but you are being a jerk about it all.

 

[marks]

But that's not the natural man Paul is talking about in Galatians 4:29.

Did you catch that this passage contains an allegory? I think you are counting the allegory as non-allegorical.

Just as it was between them, so now those born from the flesh persecute those born from the spirit. There is birth from flesh, and birth from spirit. The Law begets slaves, and the promise begets freemen. And just like Ishmael persecuted Isaac, so it is now. But that begetting according to flesh (Ishmael) is an allegory, not a birth in the sense that we are born from our parents, and born from God.

Being born from our parents, we are new beings with their nature. Born from God, we are new beings sharing His nature.

Much love!