Not ALL the physically dead are raised at the same time, the dead in Christ rise FIRST.

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you did I must have missed it.

Of course you missed it. You can't understand scripture and you can't understand anything anyone tells you. Please ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I disagree for the following reasons. First, even a casual reader of Paul's epistle to the Romans will notice that his focus changes beginning in chapter 9, where he discusses the nation of Israel. He only mentions Israel in those three chapters.

You need to learn how to read and ask God for wisdom because you currently have none. Only mentions Israel in Romans 9, 10 and 11? That's clearly false. Are these verses not there in whatever translation you're reading?

Romans 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Romans 10:11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” 12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Romans 11:11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. 22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

Romans 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The Gentiles are mentioned plenty in Romans 9, 10 and 11, so to say that only Israel is mentioned is just ridiculous.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Of course you missed it. You can't understand scripture and you can't understand anything anyone tells you. Please ask God for wisdom (James 1:5-7).

If I missed it, then point me to the post. You claim to prove things, but you don't.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You need to learn how to read and ask God for wisdom because you currently have none.

I disagree with your view, but it doesn't follow that I am wrong and you are right.

Only mentions Israel in Romans 9, 10 and 11?

That's right.

That's clearly false. Are these verses not there in whatever translation you're reading?

Prove me wrong. The verses you quoted mention Israel, but as I say, they are chapters 9, 10, and 11. Other than these three chapters, Paul does not mention Israel I his letter to the Romans. This is a fact that is easily checked.

The Gentiles are mentioned plenty in Romans 9, 10 and 11, so to say that only Israel is mentioned is just ridiculous.

It is not ridiculous for the reason I mentioned. Why are we arguing over facts that can easily be checked? The usage of Israel in chapters 9, 10, and 11 prove that Paul has ended his previous argument in chapter 8 and has begun a new argument in chapter 9.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Prove me wrong. The verses you quoted mention Israel, but as I say, they are chapters 9, 10, and 11. Other than these three chapters, Paul does not mention Israel I his letter to the Romans. This is a fact that is easily checked.

They also mention the Gentiles and you said Romans 9, 10 and 11 only mention Israel. So, I proved you wrong yet again. But, you think I never prove you wrong. Of course you won't ever admit that because you are so spiritually blind that you can't even see the explicit references to the Gentiles in the passages that I quoted.

It is not ridiculous for the reason I mentioned. Why are we arguing over facts that can easily be checked? The usage of Israel in chapters 9, 10, and 11 prove that Paul has ended his previous argument in chapter 8 and has begun a new argument in chapter 9.

For you to say that only Israel is mentioned in chapters 9 to 11 despite the obvious and explicit references to the Gentiles shows that you just believe whatever you want to believe and your beliefs are not based on scripture.

 

[covenantee]

I disagree for the following reasons. First, even a casual reader of Paul's epistle to the Romans will notice that his focus changes beginning in chapter 9, where he discusses the nation of Israel. He only mentions Israel in those three chapters. Second, in those passages, he mentions several negative things about Israel's past, which are not true of the Church.

Finally, a casual reader will notice that Paul's main discourse ends after chapter 5, where he begins chapter 6, asking a series of rhetorical questions. He continues this course of discussion into chapter 11, which opens with the following question.

Does not invalidate what I've posted in any way.

Romans 11:1-2
I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew.
Paul defines God's people in ethnic terms, arguing that although he is an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin, God has not rejected him.

Paul defines God's people as a remnant that God foreknew according to the election of grace (Romans 11:2,5). Paul is one of them, and he is also an ethnic Israelite.

Okay? But what about national Israel? If God is saving people from every tongue, nationality, family line, etc., then it is reasonable to say that God will continue to save individual Jews, including Paul. But what about national Israel? The Apostle addresses that question next.

Romans 11:11
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.

There is not a single reference to "national Israel" in the Book of Romans. "Their transgression" refers to the transgression of the unbelieving unregenerates within Israel.

The church did not transgress so that salvation might come to the Gentiles. It was Israel that transgressed, placing the Messiah on a cross. Even so, that stumble didn't result in the fall of national Israel.

There is not a single reference to "national Israel" in the Book of Romans. It was the unbelieving unregenerates within Israel who crucified Christ (Acts 3:14,15). But the opportunity to receive Christ and heal their stumble has always been extended to them, and multitudes have responded to it.

God is saving both Jews and Gentiles by faith; but it doesn't follow, therefore, that the term "Israel" symbolically represents the church.

The believing regenerate Israelite constituency is part of the Church.

The term “kinsmen” refers to blood relations.

Peter does not use the term "kinsmen". The KJV uses the term "strangers", while Strong uses "sojourners", defined as "in the N. T. metaphorically, in reference to heaven as the native country, one who sojourns on earth: so of Christians, 1 Peter 1:1"

I disagree. A person becomes faithful and fears the Lord because God has first chosen him or her.

Deuteronomy 30
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

Joshua 24
15 ...choose you this day whom ye will serve...

 

[CadyandZoe]

Does not invalidate what I've posted in any way.

The text does not support your idea that Paul equates Israel with the church in Romans 9-11 for the reasons I outlined.

Paul defines God's people as a remnant that God foreknew according to the election of grace (Romans 11:2,5). Paul is one of them, and he is also an ethnic Israelite.

Exactly. God's people are Israelites in his view.

There is not a single reference to "national Israel" in the Book of Romans.

Chapters 9 through 11.

"Their transgression" refers to the transgression of the unbelieving unregenerates within Israel.

I disagree. The ONLY transgression that resulted in riches for the Gentiles took place when Israel put the Messiah on the cross.

There is not a single reference to "national Israel" in the Book of Romans.

Every occurrence of the word "Israel" in Romans refers to national Israel.

It was the unbelieving unregenerates within Israel who crucified Christ (Acts 3:14,15).

The Chief priests and Elders crucified Christ, and they were the leaders of national Israel.

But the opportunity to receive Christ and heal their stumble has always been extended to them, and multitudes have responded to it.

Paul argues the case for the nation as well as for individuals.

The believing regenerate Israelite constituency is part of the Church.

I agree. But it does not follow that since some in the Church are Israelites that the word "Israel" indicates the Church.

Peter does not use the term "kinsmen".

I agree. But Paul does.

The KJV uses the term "strangers", while Strong uses "sojourners", defined as "in the N. T. metaphorically, in reference to heaven as the native country, one who sojourns on earth: so of Christians, 1 Peter 1:1"

Let's look at this again in the KJV

1 Peter 1:1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the (1) strangers (2) scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

(1)strangers
You are focused on the word "strangers," which indicates anyone who sojourns. But Peter is focused on the word "scattered."

(2)scattered
Peter is focused on the word "scattered." In Greek the word is STRONGS NT 1290: διασπορά

1290 (diaspora) is used figuratively of the Jews in NT times. They were literally scattered throughout the Roman empire (i.e. dispersed) and therefore called "the Diaspora."​

​

Peter is talking to Jewish people scattered throughout the Roman Empire.

 

[CadyandZoe]

They also mention the Gentiles and you said Romans 9, 10 and 11 only mention Israel.

Let me clarify, Romans 9, 10, and 11 are indeed the only chapters in Romans that mention Israel. This serves as a clear indication to the reader that Paul has shifted the focus.

You have previously criticized my writing style, but I have come to realize that any misunderstandings are your responsibility, not mine.

 

[rwb]

The text does not support your idea that Paul equates Israel with the church in Romans 9-11 for the reasons I outlined.

Who do you think Paul is addressing this letter to? Who are beloved of God, called of Jesus Christ, the saints if not the Church that is in Rome? Paul is addressing Christians in Rome that are both Jews and Gentiles of faith together. The same people he refers to in 9-11 as the "Israel of God."

Romans 1:1-7 (KJV) Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ: To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

You just pick and choose which verses you will cling to and ignore anything that does not support your Zionist Dispensationalist doctrines!

Exactly. God's people are Israelites in his view.

Finally! Do you actually finally get it? According to Paul both Jews and Gentiles of faith together are "the Israel of God" who make up the spiritual body of Christ, called the church.

Chapters 9 through 11.

These chapters repeatedly show that belonging to the circumcision or simply by being born a Jew does not make Jews in unbelief "the Israel of God" any more than being born a Gentile in unbelief does.

Every occurrence of the word "Israel" in Romans refers to national Israel.

You make contradicting statements! You just said God's people are Israelites, now you say the word Israel refers to nation Israel??? How can both be true since you've already admitted that Jews in unbelief are not the people of God??? You're confused because you don't seem to understand that Paul is showing us there are some Jews called Israel of the flesh who are not of faith. Paul makes a distinction between those calling themselves Israel according to the flesh, and those who are true Isarael of God who are the elect remnant according to faith who are also Jews. Paul takes great pains to show us that "Israel of God" is not only of Jews called Israel of the flesh, but also of Gentiles of faith together with them. Because being born a Jew in the flesh has no greater significance than being born a Gentile in the flesh. "Ye must be born again", to belong to the "Israel of God"!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Let me clarify, Romans 9, 10, and 11 are indeed the only chapters in Romans that mention Israel. This serves as a clear indication to the reader that Paul has shifted the focus.

You have previously criticized my writing style, but I have come to realize that any misunderstandings are your responsibility, not mine.

LOL. Somehow, you think it's my fault that you had to clarify what you were saying. Okay. Makes perfect sense. What is clear in those chapters is that God brought Israelite and Gentile believers together as one while putting no difference between them just as Paul wrote about in his other letters.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Every occurrence of the word "Israel" in Romans refers to national Israel.

This is complete nonsense.

You don't trust any English translations since they all teach the deity of Christ, which you deny, but you said before that you use the NASB. So, I'll quote from that.

Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; 7 nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s [a]descendants, but: “[b]through Isaac your [c]descendants shall be named.” 8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh [d]who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as [e]descendants.

CadyandZoe Nonsense Translation:

Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all national Israel who are descended from national Israel;

Your claim makes this verse completely ludicrous. Paul would not say that not all those in the nation of Israel are descended from the nation of Israel, since that wouldn't be true. It would be a ridiculous and nonsensical thing for him to say. He is clearly referring to two different Israels there and saying that not all who are descended from national Israel are part of spiritual Israel (the Israel of God). Verses 7 and 8 explain what Paul was saying in verse 6. He clearly said that being a physical descendant of Abraham was not a criteria for being part of the Israel of which not all national Israel are part. Instead, "it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants" of Abraham. To say that he is only referring to one Israel in that verse makes the verse completely nonsensical, as you can see when you read it that way.

Who are the children of God and children of the promise then? Because whoever they are, they are the ones who are part of the Israel of which not all national Israel are part.

Here is Paul writing to Jew and Gentile believers in the church:

Galatians 4:28 And you, brothers and sisters, like Isaac, are children of promise.

This explains what Paul meant in Romans 9:7 when he said "through Isaac your descendants shall be named". He applied that to those in the church.

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is [a]neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you [b]belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s [c]descendants, heirs according to promise.

There it is. Those who belong to Christ, including Jew and Greek/Gentile believers, are the children of God and children of the promise. And Paul said it is only the children of God and children of the promise who are considered to be part of the Israel of which not all national Israel are part.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Who do you think Paul is addressing this letter to?

That is a different question. Paul addresses his letter to the Romans, meaning the Church(s) at Rome.

Who are beloved of God, called of Jesus Christ, the saints if not the Church that is in Rome? Paul is addressing Christians in Rome that are both Jews and Gentiles of faith together.

I agree. Even though he is talking to both Jew and Gentile Christians in Rome, it does not follow, therefore, that the church in Rome or is "the Israel of God."

You just pick and choose which verses you will cling to and ignore anything that does not support your Zionist Dispensationalist doctrines!

I pick the verses that are relevant to the topic at hand.

Finally! Do you actually finally get it? According to Paul both Jews and Gentiles of faith together are "the Israel of God" who make up the spiritual body of Christ, called the church.

No, that is not what I said, and I maintain Paul would never say that. The Israel of God are physical descendants of Israel.

These chapters repeatedly show that belonging to the circumcision or simply by being born a Jew does not make Jews in unbelief "the Israel of God" any more than being born a Gentile in unbelief does.

I agree. However, the Israel of God consists of the Physical descendants sanctified by God through the Holy Spirit. The Gentiles are not the Israel of God.

You make contradicting statements! You just said God's people are Israelites, now you say the word Israel refers to nation Israel???

How is that a contradiction?

How can both be true since you've already admitted that Jews in unbelief are not the people of God???

You are confused. All of the descendants of Jacob are God's people whether they believe or not. Romans 3:3

You're confused because you don't seem to understand that Paul is showing us there are some Jews called Israel of the flesh who are not of faith. Paul makes a distinction between those calling themselves Israel according to the flesh, and those who are true Isarael of God who are the elect remnant according to faith who are also Jews.

I agree with this. Paul shows that not all Israel are Israel.

Paul takes great pains to show us that "Israel of God" is not only of Jews called Israel of the flesh, but also of Gentiles of faith together with them. Because being born a Jew in the flesh has no greater significance than being born a Gentile in the flesh. "Ye must be born again", to belong to the "Israel of God"!

I disagree with this. Paul does NOT argue that Gentiles are included in Israel.

 

[CadyandZoe]

LOL. Somehow, you think it's my fault that you had to clarify what you were saying. Okay. Makes perfect sense. What is clear in those chapters is that God brought Israelite and Gentile believers together as one while putting no difference between them just as Paul wrote about in his other letters.

I agree that God brought Jew and Gentiles together in Christ at the cross. I disagree with the idea that the Church is the True Israel.

 

[CadyandZoe]

This is complete nonsense.

You like that word don't you?

Your claim makes this verse completely ludicrous. Paul would not say that not all those in the nation of Israel are descended from the nation of Israel, since that wouldn't be true. It would be a ridiculous and nonsensical thing for him to say.

The contradiction is resolved when one understands the question Paul is answering.

He is clearly referring to two different Israels there and saying that not all who are descended from national Israel are part of spiritual Israel (the Israel of God).

I agree with that. I don't agree with your conclusion that Gentiles are included in Spiritual Israel.

Verses 7 and 8 explain what Paul was saying in verse 6. He clearly said that being a physical descendant of Abraham was not a criteria for being part of the Israel of which not all national Israel are part. Instead, "it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants" of Abraham.

I note that in his argument, he compares two physical children of Abraham, and two physical children of Isaac. This proves that not all who are descended from Jacob are Spiritual Israel. This does NOT prove that Gentiles are included in Spiritual Israel.

To say that he is only referring to one Israel in that verse makes the verse completely nonsensical, as you can see when you read it that way.

Did I say he was talking about one Israel? I don't think I did.

Who are the children of God and children of the promise then? Because whoever they are, they are the ones who are part of the Israel of which not all national Israel are part.

Your conclusion is not supported by the text. Just because God chooses both Jews and Gentiles to be his children, it does not follow that Spiritual Israel contains Gentiles. Your conclusion doesn't answer Paul's rhetorical question.

This explains what Paul meant in Romans 9:7 when he said "through Isaac your descendants shall be named". He applied that to those in the church.

In Galatians Paul argues that we are sons and daughters of ABRAHAM through faith in Christ. He does not argue that we are sons and daughters of JACOB in that text. Learn the difference.

There it is. Those who belong to Christ, including Jew and Greek/Gentile believers, are the children of God and children of the promise.

I agree with this

And Paul said it is only the children of God and children of the promise who are considered to be part of the Israel of which not all national Israel are part.

I disagree with this. Paul did not argue that all who belong to Christ, both Jew and Greek are Israel.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I agree that God brought Jew and Gentiles together in Christ at the cross. I disagree with the idea that the Church is the True Israel.

Yes, I know that, but you have no way of reconciling that belief with what is written in Romans 9:6-8. I showed how ridiculous it is to interpret Romans 9:6 the way you do, which is like this:

Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all national Israel who are descended from national Israel;

Anyone without doctrinal bias can see how ludicrous this verse becomes when you word it the way you understand it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You like that word don't you?

Yes, I do. I can't think of any better word to describe your beliefs than nonsense.

I agree with that. I don't agree with your conclusion that Gentiles are included in Spiritual Israel.

You agree that he's talking about two different Israels in Romans 9:6? How can you agree with that after saying every reference to Israel in Romans 9-11 is to national Israel? That's one Israel, not two.

I note that in his argument, he compares two physical children of Abraham, and two physical children of Isaac. This proves that not all who are descended from Jacob are Spiritual Israel. This does NOT prove that Gentiles are included in Spiritual Israel.

But, he makes it clear that who or where someone descends from has nothing to do with being part of Spiritual Israel and instead that it's the children of God and children of the promise who are part of Spiritual Israel.

According to the following passage both Jew and Gentile believers are the children of God and of of the promise, so that should tell you who is part of Spiritual Israel. But, you have no concept of interpreting scripture with scripture, so it's not surprising that you can't see this.

Galatians 3:26 For you are all sons and daughters of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is [a]neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you [b]belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s [c]descendants, heirs according to promise.

Did I say he was talking about one Israel? I don't think I did.

You said he only referenced national Israel. You can't see how that comes across? That doesn't look like more than one Israel to me.

Your conclusion is not supported by the text. Just because God chooses both Jews and Gentiles to be his children, it does not follow that Spiritual Israel contains Gentiles. Your conclusion doesn't answer Paul's rhetorical question.

Believing Gentiles meet the criteria that Paul gives for being part of Spiritual Israel, which is that they are children of God and of the promise.

In Galatians Paul argues that we are sons and daughters of ABRAHAM through faith in Christ. He does not argue that we are sons and daughters of JACOB in that text. Learn the difference.

Read Romans 9:6-8. Paul refers to those who are part of Spiritual Israel as being Abraham's spiritual seed because they are children of God and of the promise. You are apparently ignoring that.

I agree with this

It's a minor miracle that we agree on anything.

I disagree with this. Paul did not argue that all who belong to Christ, both Jew and Greek are Israel.

It's implied because he taught elsewhere that those who are the children of God and of the promise, as he described those who are part of Spiritual Israel, include both Jew and Gentile believers. I'm not sure why you are against the idea of Gentiles being part of Spiritual Israel. It's a spiritual entity, so one physical ancestry has nothing to do with being part of it. That is what Paul indicates in Romans 9:6-8 when he specifically says not all those who descend from national Israel are Spiritual Israel and "it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.". How can you miss that one's physical ancestry has nothing to do with being part of Spiritual Israel after reading that?

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, I know that, but you have no way of reconciling that belief with what is written in Romans 9:6-8. I showed how ridiculous it is to interpret Romans 9:6 the way you do, which is like this:

Romans 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all national Israel who are descended from national Israel;

Anyone without doctrinal bias can see how ludicrous this verse becomes when you word it the way you understand it.

It isn't ludicrous because that is what Paul meant to say with regard to the "Israel" that will fulfill the word of God. He made a promise to National Israel, and that promise will be fulfilled in Spiritual Israel, which consists of Jacob's descendants that are also believers.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Yes, I do. I can't think of any better word to describe your beliefs than nonsense.

And by "nonsense" you mean what? You don't agree for emotional reasons?

You agree that he's talking about two different Israels in Romans 9:6?

He is saying that not all of Jacob's descendants are the "Israel" that will fulfill the promise. We understand his language if we pay attention to the question he answers.

How can you agree with that after saying every reference to Israel in Romans 9-11 is to national Israel? That's one Israel, not two.

God's word, his promise, will be fulfilled in the future. At that time, National Israel will be populated by those who have been sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

But, he makes it clear that who or where someone descends from has nothing to do with being part of Spiritual Israel and instead that it's the children of God and children of the promise who are part of Spiritual Israel.

On the contrary, his argument is a comparison between physical descendants of Abraham. THAT is his focus -- physical descendants of Abraham.

According to the following passage both Jew and Gentile believers are the children of God and of of the promise, so that should tell you who is part of Spiritual Israel.

Doesn't mention Israel in Galatians and he isn't talking about Israel in Galatians. That is where you go wrong, you attempt to shoehorn Galatians into Romans. Galatians discusses Abraham's spiritual seed. Romans 9 discusses Jacob's spiritual seed. There is a difference.

You said he only referenced national Israel. You can't see how that comes across? That doesn't look like more than one Israel to me.

That's right. Paul's focus is on national Israel because God made a promise to national Israel that as yet remains unfulfilled.

Believing Gentiles meet the criteria that Paul gives for being part of Spiritual Israel, which is that they are children of God and of the promise.

No, he gives the criteria for being a spiritual son of Abraham.

Read Romans 9:6-8. Paul refers to those who are part of Spiritual Israel as being Abraham's spiritual seed because they are children of God and of the promise. You are apparently ignoring that.

I am not ignoring it. I agree with it. I disagree with your conflation of Galatians and Romans.

It's implied because he taught elsewhere that those who are the children of God and of the promise, as he described those who are part of Spiritual Israel, include both Jew and Gentile believers.

Where? Paul never taught that Spiritual Israel includes Gentiles.

I'm not sure why you are against the idea of Gentiles being part of Spiritual Israel.

Because it isn't taught in Scripture.

It's a spiritual entity, so one physical ancestry has nothing to do with being part of it.

I don't agree with that conclusion. Paul never says that ancestry has nothing to do with it.

That is what Paul indicates in Romans 9:6-8 when he specifically says not all those who descend from national Israel are Spiritual Israel and "it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.". How can you miss that one's physical ancestry has nothing to do with being part of Spiritual Israel after reading that?

Paul doesn't say what you say. Your view doesn't answer Paul's rhetorical question. Any interpretation that fails to answer Paul's rhetorical question needs to be corrected. And your view ignores the first 5 verses of Romans 9.

Why would Paul wish himself accursed for the sake of his brethren if ancestry had nothing to do with God's promise to them?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It isn't ludicrous because that is what Paul meant to say with regard to the "Israel" that will fulfill the word of God. He made a promise to National Israel, and that promise will be fulfilled in Spiritual Israel, which consists of Jacob's descendants that are also believers.

You are making being a physical descendant of national Israel a requirement for being part of Spiritual Israel which completely contradicts what Paul said in Romans 9:6-8 where he made it clear that who or where someone descended from has nothing to do with being part of Spiritual Israel and instead has to do with being a child of God and of the promise, which both Jew and Gentile believers are.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

And by "nonsense" you mean what? You don't agree for emotional reasons?

LOL. Are you playing dumb here? I believe that your interpretations do not make any sense. Hence, I call it nonsense.

He is saying that not all of Jacob's descendants are the "Israel" that will fulfill the promise. We understand his language if we pay attention to the question he answers.

And what do you think disqualifies someone from being part of that Israel which fulfills the promise?

God's word, his promise, will be fulfilled in the future. At that time, National Israel will be populated by those who have been sanctified by the Holy Spirit.

How would that happen? God is just going to do that for them supernaturally? No need for them to make a choice of whether or not to repent and put their faith and trust in Christ?

On the contrary, his argument is a comparison between physical descendants of Abraham. THAT is his focus -- physical descendants of Abraham.

You are clearly not reading the passage carefully at all.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[a] 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

He's not comparing physical descendants of Abraham, he's saying that being a physical descendant of Abraham is not part of the requirement for being part of Spiritual Israel and being "regarded as Abraham's offspring".

Doesn't mention Israel in Galatians and he isn't talking about Israel in Galatians.

Do you see the references to the children of God and children of the promise in Romans 9:6-8 and Galatians 3:26-29? In Romans 9:6-8 the children of God and of the promise are those who are part of Spiritual Israel. So, why can't we use other scripture about the children of God and of the promise to gain further insight into Spiritual Israel? There is no reason why not.

That is where you go wrong, you attempt to shoehorn Galatians into Romans.

That is where I go right because the children of God and children of the promise aren't one thing in Romans 9:6-8 and another thing in Galatians 3:26-29. So, whoever the children of God and of the promise are in Romans 9:6-8, they are the same in Galatians 3:26-29. You have no concept of interpreting scripture with scripture, so that's why you don't understand.

Galatians discusses Abraham's spiritual seed.

So does Romans 9:6-8. You once again are proving that you are not reading the passage carefully.

Again...

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Do you see the parts I bolded here? Those all refer to Abraham's spiritual seed/offspring/children. They are the ones who make up Spiritual Israel and are God's children and the children of the promise.

Romans 9 discusses Jacob's spiritual seed. There is a difference.

No, it discusses Abraham's spiritual seed as I showed above and as you are completely ignoring.

Where? Paul never taught that Spiritual Israel includes Gentiles.

Once again, we can deduce that from Romans 9:6-8 because it indicates that Spiritual Israel is made up of the cihldren of God and of the promise, which Galatians 3:26-29 indicates includes both Jew and Gentile believers.

Then there is this:

Galatians 6:15 Neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything; what counts is the new creation. 16 Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule—to the Israel of God.

In this passage Paul equates being part of "the new creation", which has nothing to do with physical things like circumcision, as being part of "the Israel of God". All who follow the rule of being made a new creation in Christ, which has nothing to do with physical things like being circumcised or not, make up the Israel of God.

I don't agree with that conclusion. Paul never says that ancestry has nothing to do with it.

And, yet again, you prove that you are not reading the passage carefully at all.

Romans 9:6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.”[a] 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring.

Paul repeatedly indicates that being descended from Israel and being a physical descendant of Abraham has nothing to do with being part of Spiritual Israel. What else did he mean by saying "Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children" and "In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children"?

Paul doesn't say what you say. Your view doesn't answer Paul's rhetorical question. Any interpretation that fails to answer Paul's rhetorical question needs to be corrected. And your view ignores the first 5 verses of Romans 9.

No, it does not. Your arguments are extremely weak here. Is this all you have?

Why would Paul wish himself accursed for the sake of his brethren if ancestry had nothing to do with God's promise to them?

You're not understanding that God's promises do apply to them (believers only, of course), but also to Gentile believers as the New Testament teaches repeatedly. You can only miss that because of doctrinal bias and a lack of spiritual discernment. Do you not accept that Gentile believers are fellow citizens and fellow heirs with Israelite believers of God's promises as Paul taught in Ephesians 2:11-3:6?