No mortals will survive the second coming of Christ

[Spiritual Israelite]

If you don't want to attend the feast in the kingdom of heaven with Abraham,your not forced to.

Once again you prove that you can't be taken seriously with yet another ridiculous comment.

You already said no one will travel to the feast.

Zech 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Why did you not address what I said in my post? That tells me that you cherry pick scripture that you think supports your view while ignoring the rest which is a tactic the cults use. Do you really want to interpret scripture just like the cults do? Or would you rather take passages like John 5:19-24 and Hebrews 8-10 into account when interpreting Zechariah 14?

Scripture says we don't need to go to Jerusalem any longer to worship God and we must worship God in spirit and in truth and it does not say that will ever change. Scripture says that Jesus's sacrifice established the new covenant while making the old covenant and its animal sacrifices obsolete (Hebrews 8-10). So, explain why animal sacrifices would ever be reinstated in light of that?

 

[jeffweeder]

I showed him the following passage multiple times and he just ignores it. He just believes what he wants to believe.

Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God.


He ignores this passage as well. He's cherry picking certain scriptures while ignoring the rest just like the cults do.

He undermines the clear spiritually discerned words of Jesus in Matt 13 and 25 and relies on his own interpretation of Ezekiel , Zechariah , Revelation etc. I just do not understand why people do that. Jesus clearly knew of these scriptures when he spoke and taught on his coming and the end of the age. I know where I am putting my faith, and its not in my own understanding.


Lk 24
44 Then He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you, everything which has been written about Me in the Law of Moses and the [writings of the] Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to [help them] understand the Scriptures, 46 and said, “And so it is written, that the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed) would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and that repentance [necessary] for forgiveness of sins would be preached in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

 

[tailgator]

Once again you prove that you can't be taken seriously with yet another ridiculous comment.

Why did you not address what I said in my post? That tells me that you cherry pick scripture that you think supports your view while ignoring the rest which is a tactic the cults use. Do you really want to interpret scripture just like the cults do? Or would you rather take passages like John 5:19-24 and Hebrews 8-10 into account when interpreting Zechariah 14?

Scripture says we don't need to go to Jerusalem any longer to worship God and we must worship God in spirit and in truth and it does not say that will ever change. Scripture says that Jesus's sacrifice established the new covenant while making the old covenant and its animal sacrifices obsolete (Hebrews 8-10). So, explain why animal sacrifices would ever be reinstated in light of that?

This isn't about Jerusalem at the present time,or the past.This is a prophecy of Jerusalem after the Lord comes to Jerusalem.on the day of the Lord.


Zech 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles

 

[Davidpt]

I never said no one will travel north or south to take their place at the feast.Infact,Egypt will need to travel north to the feast.
The Egyptians will travel north every year to keep the feast.That is after the Lord comes on the day of the Lord.

Zech 14
9 And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and his name one.

10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.

11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.


Zech 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Now I think I see what you were meaning. Makes good sense to me since anyone living outside of the kingdom can't already be in the kingdom and already be there if they have to come up from year to year. Some will argue, it is ridiculous that everyone on the planet can be in the same city at the same time. No problem if the nations send delegates to fulfill this.

Nations do things like that all the time. There is no nation that sends everyone in the nation somewhere in order to do something. When the USA is having talks with other nations, when is the last time anyone has ever heard of the entire country packing up and showing up at these talks? The USA sends delegates to do that, not the entire country. Therefore, it is not a valid argument that the reason Zechariah 14:16-19 can't be taken in the literal sense, that ppl have to literally travel to get there is because it is ludicrous that everyone on the planet can fit in a city all at the same time.

 

[tailgator]

He undermines the clear spiritually discerned words of Jesus in Matt 13 and 25 and relies on his own interpretation of Ezekiel , Zechariah , Revelation etc. I just do not understand why people do that. Jesus clearly knew of these scriptures when he spoke and taught on his coming and the end of the age. I know where I am putting my faith, and its not in my own understanding.


Lk 24
44 Then He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you, everything which has been written about Me in the Law of Moses and the [writings of the] Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to [help them] understand the Scriptures, 46 and said, “And so it is written, that the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed) would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and that repentance [necessary] for forgiveness of sins would be preached in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

This prophecy is about Jerusalem after Christ has come to Jerusalem with all the saints.
You do understand Christ will come on the day of the Lord don't you?
He is coming to Jerusalem.

Zech 14

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

[tailgator]

Now I clearly see what you were meaning. Makes good sense to me since anyone living outside of the kingdom can't already be in the kingdom and already be there if they have to come up from year to year. Some will argue, it is ridiculous that everyone on the planet can be in the same city at the same time. No problem if the nations send delegates to fulfill this.

Nations do things like that all the time. There is no nation that sends everyone in the nation somewhere in order to do something. When the USA is having talks with other nations, when is the last time anyone has ever heard of the entire country packing up and showing up at these talks? The USA sends delegates to do that, not the entire country. Therefore, it is not a valid argument that the reason Zechariah 14:16-19 can't be taken in the literal sense, that ppl have to literally travel to get there is because it is ludicrous that everyone on the planet can fit in a city all at the same time.

These people I've been talking to like spiritual Israelites have no intention of going to the feast.They don't know there is one and they don't know where or when it is.So no,I don't believe it will be overcrowded.I haven't seen anyone planning to go.



I'm hoping next year I will.learn the date .I' think it's in 2028 but next year I will know for sure.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

This isn't about Jerusalem at the present time,or the past.This is a prophecy of Jerusalem after the Lord comes to Jerusalem.on the day of the Lord.


Zech 14
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles

So, just to be clear, you believe that God, for whatever reason, decided to change things so that people would no longer need to come to Jerusalem to worship Him and required them to worship Him in spirit and in truth instead only to one day make people go to Jerusalem again to worship Him. And, why would He do that? It makes no sense. I see no indication whatsoever in John 4:19-24 where Jesus indicated that what He said there would one day no longer be true.

I see no indication in Hebrews 8-10 where Jesus established the better new covenant with His "once for all" sacrifice while making the old covenant animal sacrifices obsolete only to have the animal sacrifices reinstated again at some point. Why would God want to return to the inferior old covenant ways after having His Son make them obsolete? You need to explain these things if you want your interpretation of Zechariah 14 to be taken seriously.

 

[Davidpt]

He undermines the clear spiritually discerned words of Jesus in Matt 13 and 25 and relies on his own interpretation of Ezekiel , Zechariah , Revelation etc. I just do not understand why people do that. Jesus clearly knew of these scriptures when he spoke and taught on his coming and the end of the age. I know where I am putting my faith, and its not in my own understanding.


Lk 24
44 Then He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you, everything which has been written about Me in the Law of Moses and the [writings of the] Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to [help them] understand the Scriptures, 46 and said, “And so it is written, that the Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed) would suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and that repentance [necessary] for forgiveness of sins would be preached in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things.

If it turns out that the thousand years are after the 2nd coming after all, does this mean that you will want no part in it, that you will refuse to have part in it? Which would mean you place your will and desires above that of God's. I'm just curious as to Amils thoughts on that since they are adamantly opposed big time to there being the millennium after the 2nd coming. But what if there is? All the thinking there isn't, isn't going to change that fact if turns out there is.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

These people I've been talking to like spiritual Israelites have no intention of going to the feast.They don't know there is one and they don't know where or when it is.So no,I don't believe it will be overcrowded.I haven't seen anyone planning to go.

LOL! What a joke. Yes, God is going to make people have to figure out how to travel long distances to eter the kingdom of heaven. That's your understanding of how someone enters the kingdom of heaven instead of repenting and putting one's faith in Christ. Ridiculous.

I'm hoping next year I will.learn the date .I' think it's in 2028 but next year I will know for sure.

LOL. I hope you can afford to get there and don't have any issues getting there or you'll be out of luck and miss out on being in the kingdom of heaven. . LOL. Wow. I need to stop wasting time on your nonsense.

 

[tailgator]

So, just to be clear, you believe that God, for whatever reason, decided to change things so that people would no longer need to come to Jerusalem to worship Him and required them to worship Him in spirit and in truth instead only to one day make people go to Jerusalem again to worship Him. And, why would He do that? It makes no sense. I see no indication whatsoever in John 4:19-24 where Jesus indicated that what He said there would one day no longer be true.

I see no indication in Hebrews 8-10 where Jesus established the better new covenant with His "once for all" sacrifice while making the old covenant animal sacrifices obsolete only to have the animal sacrifices reinstated again at some point. Why would God want to return to the inferior old covenant ways after having His Son make them obsolete? You need to explain these things if you want your interpretation of Zechariah 14 to be taken seriously.

I'm not the one saying it.
God is.If you don't believe God,then you tell him about it.

This is not my interpretation of zech 14.
This is zech 14.


Zech 14
14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

 

[tailgator]

LOL! What a joke. Yes, God is going to make people have to figure out how to travel long distances to eter the kingdom of heaven. That's your understanding of how someone enters the kingdom of heaven instead of repenting and putting one's faith in Christ. Ridiculous.


LOL. I hope you can afford to get there and don't have any issues getting there or you'll be out of luck and miss out on being in the kingdom of heaven. . LOL. Wow. I need to stop wasting time on your nonsense.

God provides what his servants need.

 

[rwb]

I said these saints who do not worship the beast or it's image or recieve it's mark have not been resurected yet.

Can you not tell the difference between Jesus and these saints,?

Revelation 20
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

You're confusing the saints of vs 4 with the saints in vs 6. John has written the martyred saints of vs 4 "have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." If they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years before they were martyred, and they did, what "a thousand years" will those of vs 6 live in since they have not already lived and reigned with Christ, but "shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years"???

This is where Premillennialism falls apart! Saints must be physically alive to be martyred. And John writes they "HAVE LIVED & REIGNED with Christ a thousand years" before being martyred. Had they lived and reigned with Christ for exactly one thousand years as you imagine? No, because even those who are not among the martyred saints shall also REIGN with Christ during this same time, a thousand years. That's how we know without doubt that a/the thousand years does not equate to ONE thousand years that shall come but equates to TIME. Time whereby the earth has been given whereby mankind MUST be saved to have eternal life. And when the thousand symbolic years have ended, the seventh trumpet will sound that this time for be saved shall be no longer.

At the end of the thousand years the only time remaining for this earth is Satan's little season. That's when Satan and all of his minions will try one last time to defeat Christ and Christians. But when they think the Kingdom of God shall be defeated, fire will come down from God out of heaven and devour them.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7-9 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

After this comes the GWTJ, not more time for this earth.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Now I think I see what you were meaning. Makes good sense to me since anyone living outside of the kingdom can't already be in the kingdom and already be there if they have to come up from year to year. Some will argue, it is ridiculous that everyone on the planet can be in the same city at the same time. No problem if the nations send delegates to fulfill this.

Nations do things like that all the time. There is no nation that sends everyone in the nation somewhere in order to do something. When the USA is having talks with other nations, when is the last time anyone has ever heard of the entire country packing up and showing up at these talks? The USA sends delegates to do that, not the entire country. Therefore, it is not a valid argument that the reason Zechariah 14:16-19 can't be taken in the literal sense, that ppl have to literally travel to get there is because it is ludicrous that everyone on the planet can fit in a city all at the same time.

You're just making things up to justify your interpretation of Zechariah 14:16-19. Nowhere does the text indicate what you're saying. Not even close. So, make up your mind. Do take it literallly or not?

Jesus said we don't need to go to Jerusalem to worship God and we must worship God in spirit and in truth (John 4:19-24). Can you show me where He indicated that would one day no longer be true?

Scripture says that Jesus established the new covenant by His "once for all" sacrifice while making the old covenant and its animal sacrifices obsolete. Can you show me where it says that we'd over go back to having to do animal sacrifices again, as a literal interpretation of keeping the feast of tabernacles after Christ's return would require?

If you're so sure you're correct about this, as you act like you are, then why won't you address anything Isaid in the original post?

 

[Davidpt]

These people I've been talking to like spiritual Israelites have no intention of going to the feast.They don't know there is one and they don't know where or when it is.So no,I don't believe it will be overcrowded.I haven't seen anyone planning to go.



I'm hoping next year I will.learn the date .I' think it's in 2028 but next year I will know for sure.

Maybe we are not entirely on the same page after all? Those that sit down in the kingdom of God will already be there and remain there. They are not required to come up from year to year, only those outside of the kingdom are required to do that. Keep in mind what Jesus said in 1 Thessalonians 4:17---and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Maybe you are conflating some of these things, I don't know? I thought I was beginning to grasp where you were coming from. Now I'm no longer certain again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

God provides what his servants need.

We're talking about God here. He could just have us all brought together instantly without any need for travel. Here's a novel idea. He can use His angels to gather the elect and bring them to where He wants them to to be, such as in the air with Jesus and on the new earth for eternity.

Why mess around with the hassle and chaos of people having to travel from all over the world to one location when there is no need for that? Your carnal way of thinking prevents you from seeing the truth in scripture.

 

[tailgator]

You're confusing the saints of vs 4 with the saints in vs 6. John has written the martyred saints of vs 4 "have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." If they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years before they were martyred, and they did, what "a thousand years" will those of vs 6 live in since they have not already lived and reigned with Christ, but "shall be priests of God and of Christ and shall reign with Him a thousand years"???

This is where Premillennialism falls apart! Saints must be physically alive to be martyred. And John writes they "HAVE LIVED & REIGNED with Christ a thousand years" before being martyred. Had they lived and reigned with Christ for exactly one thousand years as you imagine? No, because even those who are not among the martyred saints shall also REIGN with Christ during this same time, a thousand years. That's how we know without doubt that a/the thousand years does not equate to ONE thousand years that shall come but equates to TIME. Time whereby the earth has been given whereby mankind MUST be saved to have eternal life. And when the thousand symbolic years have ended, the seventh trumpet will sound that this time for be saved shall be no longer.

At the end of the thousand years the only time remaining for this earth is Satan's little season. That's when Satan and all of his minions will try one last time to defeat Christ and Christians. But when they think the Kingdom of God shall be defeated, fire will come down from God out of heaven and devour them.

Revelation 20:4 (KJV) And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:6 (KJV) Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:7-9 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

After this comes the GWTJ, not more time for this earth.

False.
The resurected saints in revelation 20:6 are the resurected saints in revelation 20:4.Theh will live and reign with Christ for a thousand years.

There is only one 1000 years period mentioned in revelation 20 .If you can comprehend it,It is the sabbath day.

 

[rwb]

This is speaking of saints who have been killed and are resurected.
You have not been beheaded for preaching the gospel.

What is this "beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God" if not faithfulness to the Gospel?

They were faithful unto death! But even after being martyred for their faith, John sees them as souls alive in heaven, without physical form. How can there be souls in heaven after physical death? Before they were martyred for their faithfulness that had part in the "first resurrection", that is the resurrection life of Christ, through His Spirit in them when they were born again.

When trying to understand prophesy of Old, the only way you will find truth is by discerning the prophesy through what is written in the New Testament. You will never come to rightly understand the prophecies if you try to read them in isolation from their fulfillment after the first advent of Christ come to earth a man.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Maybe we are not entirely on the same page after all? Those that sit down in the kingdom of God will already be there and remain there.

If you ever get on the same page with him then you can be sure that you are entirely on the wrong page. Trust me.

He is a guy who completely undermines the teachings of Paul as it relates to Bible prophecy. In another thread I used 1 Cor 15:22-23 to show him that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected when Jesus comes and he completely dismissed that and acted like Paul didn't have the full revelation of Bible prophecy. As if he was not inspired by the Holy Spirit when he wrote about prophecy.

They are not required to come up from year to year, only those outside of the kingdom are required to do that. Keep in mind what Jesus said in 1 Thessalonians 4:17---and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Maybe you are conflating some of these things, I don't know? I thought I was beginning to grasp where you were coming from. Now I'm no longer certain again.

I highly advise not trying to be on the same page as him, but that's up to you.

 

[rwb]

Abraham was never given the promised land as an everlasting possession.

The only land Abraham owned was a small.pieace of land he bought and paid for as a burying place He wanted to be buried in the land that he would inherit after he is resurected

Abraham had no interest in returning to the land of Canaan. If he had been he could have returned. But Abraham was looking for fulfillment of the promise, everlasting life, not on this earth but in the Kingdom of God in heaven. Read Hebrews 11 if you doubt what I am telling you.

 

[tailgator]

Maybe we are not entirely on the same page after all? Those that sit down in the kingdom of God will already be there and remain there. They are not required to come up from year to year, only those outside of the kingdom are required to do that. Keep in mind what Jesus said in 1 Thessalonians 4:17---and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Maybe you are conflating some of these things, I don't know? I thought I was beginning to grasp where you were coming from. Now I'm no longer certain again.

The verse I quoted was about Egypt.
5 cities in Egypt are in the kingdom of heaven.All.ten nations which come against Jerusalem are in the kingdom.This is the same kingdom the beast dwells in today.

Isaiah 19
18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the Lord of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.

19 In that day shall there be an altar to the Lord in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar at the border thereof to the Lord.

20 And it shall be for a sign and for a witness unto the Lord of hosts in the land of Egypt: for they shall cry unto the Lord because of the oppressors, and he shall send them a saviour, and a great one, and he shall deliver them.

21 And the Lord shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the Lord in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the Lord, and perform it.

22 And the Lord shall smite Egypt: he shall smite and heal it: and they shall return even to the Lord, and he shall be intreated of them, and shall heal them.

23 In that day shall there be a highway out of Egypt to Assyria, and the Assyrian shall come into Egypt, and the Egyptian into Assyria, and the Egyptians shall serve with the Assyrians.

24 In that day shall Israel be the third with Egypt and with Assyria, even a blessing in the midst of the land:

25 Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, and Assyria the work of my hands, and Israel mine inheritance