All who are not taken up to meet the Lord in the air when He comes will be left behind and killed.

[Spiritual Israelite]

The same word, "taken" used by the Lord in those verses is also used in these--
Matt 1:20
But when he had thought this over, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary as your wife; for the Child who has been conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit.

Matt 1:24
And Joseph awoke from his sleep and did as the angel of the Lord commanded him, and took Mary as his wife,

John 14:3
“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.

No doubt, we should want to be taken to be with the Lord.

παραλαμβάνω (paralambanō)​

Strong: G3880

GK: G4161

pr. to take to one’s side; to take, receive to one’s self, Mt. 1:20; Jn. 14:3; to take with one’s self, Mt. 2:13, 14, 20, 21; 4:5, 8; to receive in charge or possession, Col. 4:17; Heb. 12:28; to receive as a matter of instruction, Mk. 7:4; 1 Cor. 11:23; 15:3; to receive, admit, acknowledge, Jn. 1:11; 1 Cor. 15:1; Col. 2:6; pass. to be carried off, Mt. 24:40, 41; Lk. 17:34, 35, 36

Yes, I was aware of this, but did not really want this thread to turn into a discussion about who is taken and who is left. The main point of this thread is to show that regardless of who is taken and who is left, every person that is either taken or left either survives or is killed. The ones who survive will have immortal bodies. With the rest being killed, if there was a pre-trib rapture, what mortals does that leave to experience tribulation (an argument against pre-trib)? None. With a post-trib rapture, what mortals does it leave to populate the earth for a thousand years? None.
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 17:36

ps.
NASB has "two in one bed"
the 2 men in the field sentence is in parenthesis, and says not in the earliest

That's probably the best way to handle those verses.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

One verse sums it up, plain and simple

"Destroyed Them All" When The Son Of Man Is Revealed

I like the KJV the 54 translators did an outstanding job at bringing forth God's words in the English language, 414 years and going strong

Luke 17:29-30KJV
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Right. That's really the main point I'm making about the Luke 17:26-37 passage. It does not allow for any unbelievers to survive His second coming. Just like other passages like Matthew 24:34-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10 and 2 Peter 3:10-12.

 

[Scott Downey]

This is the harvest of souls from the earth

The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares​

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”

The Parable of the Tares Explained​

36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away and went into the house. And His disciples came to Him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the tares of the field.”

37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

Reaping the Earth’s Harvest​

14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, “Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come [j]for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.

Reaping the Grapes of Wrath​

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, “Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe.” 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses’ bridles, for one thousand six hundred [k]furlongs.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Modern translations NIV, NASB, ESV, ETC are supported by the Greek Text (Novum Testamentum Graece) this Greek Text was "Created" by Adulterers (Kurt Aland), (Barbara Aland), and Homosexual Union Supporter And Roman Catholic Jesuit Cardinal (Carlo Maria Martini)

(Kurt Aland) divorced his wife (Ingeborg) and ran off with and married his college student (Barbara Nee Ehlers), being 22 years her senior, (Kurt Aland) died in the sin of Adultery, being married to (Barbara Nee Ehlers) while his wife (Ingeborg Aland) lived

Did God Use Adulterers And A Homosexual Union Supporter To Preserve His Words In The Greek Text (Novum Testamentum Graece)?

Adulterers (Kurt Aland), (Barbara Aland), And (Carlo Maria Martini), Are Corrupt Trees, And The (Novum Testamentum Graece) Is Their Corrupt Fruit

Matthew 7:17-18KJV
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Good grief. Let's not turn this thread into a debate about translations. Please do not derail this thread.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Greetings Spiritual Israelite,

When does the Battle of Armageddon occur, and who are the people who will beat their swords into plowshares?

Revelation 16:15–16 (KJV): 15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. 16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Isaiah 2:1–4 (KJV): 1 The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem. 2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD’S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Is the fact that there will not be any more war be because all the people will be destroyed and there will no nations left on the earth?

Kind regards
Trevor

Hello Trevor. Please address the points I made in the original post and then I will address your points. That's only fair, isn't it?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There will be mortals in the new heavens and earth.

Please explain how that is possible in light of what Jesus said in Luke 17:26-37, which is what this thread is supposed to be about.

 

[Scott Downey]

Matthew 13

The Parable of the Dragnet​

47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”

51 [d]Jesus said to them, “Have you understood all these things?”

They said to Him, “Yes, [e]Lord.”

52 Then He said to them, “Therefore every [f]scribe instructed [g]concerning the kingdom of heaven is like a householder who brings out of his treasure things new and old.”

********************************************
Since the bad are thrown away, to be burned in fire, none of the bad ones will remain when Christ returns.

After all this teaching by Christ, He asks them Have you understood all these things?
Today we see from responses, some people have not. They do not believe the words of Christ.
They do not believe the bad are thrown away and won't be here anymore.
They believe in a 1000 year reign of Christ on this earth, where the Spirit of God will still strive with the wicked.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Specifically though taken where?

Up to meet the Lord in the air.

Taken to destruction to be eaten by birds.

That's not the only way to understand what Jesus was saying. I believe they will be left behind on the earth while we are taken up in the air and they will be destroyed by fire. Unbelievers won't really be taken anywhere. They will be killed by the fire that comes down when Jesus returns right where they are.

Either way, though, one survives and one is killed. That's the point. With all who survive having immortal bodies and the rest being killed, what mortals does that leave on the earth? None. This passage (Luke 17:26-37) is a major problem for pre-trib and for premill in general.

 

[Scott Downey]

The time of Noah in genesis 6

Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive[a] with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were [b]giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

5 Then [c]the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent[d] of the thoughts of his heart was only evil [e]continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Jesus told us it will be the same when He returns as what happened to them in the great flood.

 

[Scott Downey]

Up to meet the Lord in the air.


That's not the only way to understand what Jesus was saying. I believe they will be left behind on the earth while we are taken up in the air and they will be destroyed by fire. Unbelievers won't really be taken anywhere. They will be killed by the fire that comes down when Jesus returns right where they are.

Either way, though, one survives and one is killed. That's the point. With all who survive having immortal bodies and the rest being killed, what mortals does that leave on the earth? None. This passage (Luke 17:26-37) is a major problem for pre-trib and for premill in general.

Their bodies will burn up along with the earth, their spirits will be gathered and cast into Hell, or the Lake of fire.
The wicked don't cease to exist as if they never were. We will be aware of what happened to them, where they are.

 

[Scott Downey]

As when the flood occurred, all flesh that breathed air, died.
But their spirits were imprisoned in hell, or the place of death, sheol, hades, Tartarus etc...

And Jesus descends at death into the lower parts of the earth and interacts with them.

1 Peter 3

Christ’s Suffering and Ours​

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring [f]us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, [g]when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, angels and authorities and powers having been made subject to Him.

 

[Scott Downey]

Jesus alludes to the truth the earth and all it's works will burn in an oven in Luke 12, in one day

This is what Peter and Paul means by a sudden destruction by fire. God has appointed a day in the future when this will happen, see we are futurists, we are to look forward to these things, not backwards, and also to say in our spirits to come Lord Jesus, even today.
Always be ready for Him.

Do Not Worry​

22 Then He said to His disciples, “Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; nor about the body, what you will put on. 23 Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. 24 Consider the ravens, for they neither sow nor reap, which have neither storehouse nor barn; and God feeds them. Of how much more value are you than the birds? 25 And which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? 26 If you then are not able to do the least, why [d]are you anxious for the rest? 27 Consider the lilies, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; and yet I say to you, even Solomon in all his glory was not [e]arrayed like one of these.

28 If then God so clothes the grass, which today is in the field and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, how much more will He clothe you, O you of little faith?

*********************************************
Read what Peter says about the coming DAY of fiery destruction, but in context of the entire chapter, as some people mix this into a mishmash of misunderstanding of the 1000 years comment. The 1000 years mention is about scoffers scoffing saying where is the promise of Christ's coming, not meaning anything else.

2 Peter 3, is written to, for, and about the beloved of God, meaning those who are and will be His people, what will happen in the future. It had not yet happened in Peter's day.

1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of [a]us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and [b]perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward [c]us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

The Day of the Lord​

10 But the day of the Lord (Jesus) will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be [d]burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.

Be Steadfast​

14 Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; 15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

17 You therefore, beloved, since you know this beforehand, beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; 18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Their bodies will burn up along with the earth

Right. The reference to it being where the dead bodies are and where the vultures/eagles are gathered showed that Jesus was talking about the physical destruction that will occur when He comes.

, their spirits will be gathered and cast into Hell, or the Lake of fire.

Yes, after He comes and physically destroys them.

The wicked don't cease to exist as if they never were.

I never said otherwise.

We will be aware of what happened to them, where they are.

I don't think Jesus had that in mind in Luke 17:37. I think He was only talking about physical destruction there and not referring to the judgment there.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The time of Noah in genesis 6

Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.

3 And the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive[a] with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 There were [b]giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.

5 Then [c]the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent[d] of the thoughts of his heart was only evil [e]continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, “I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

Jesus told us it will be the same when He returns as what happened to them in the great flood.

Right. Jesus specifically pointed out that the flood "destroyed them all" and then said "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.". What else could He have been saying except that just as the flood destroyed all unbelievers, all unbelievers will be destroyed when He comes again?

 

[TrevorHL]

Greetings again Scott Downey and Greetings Truth7t7,

There is no rain in Egypt for thousands of years now.
So it is not talking of physical rain

Please reread this passage again. Egypt and the nations will be participants in and subjects of the 1000 year reign.

You need to align your mind with Jesus's teaching and the apostle's doctrines, not with what you are assuming the OT prophecies are saying, as you are not in agreement with the sound words of Jesus and His apostles.

Jesus' teaching and the apostle's doctrines are in harmony with the OT prophecies, while you prefer to ignore much of the OT prophecies and misread and misunderstand much of the NT.

Many just don't want to let go of their little pet 1,000 year kingdom on this earth that doesn't exist in scripture

It is clearly taught in Scripture. The 1000 year kingdom is present in 1 Corinthians 15. The kingdom on earth commences when Jesus returns 2 Timothy 4:1,6-8 and ends when he has abolished death at the end of the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor