Why do Premillennialists not believe that 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 refer to the same event?

[Scott Downey]

God sends Christ a second time to bless His people with salvation ready to be revealed in the last time, and that blessing includes the destruction of this evil world which over time torments the people of God. Refer to Lot being tormented by the deeds of the wicked night and day. Jesus saves us from the wrath of God to come on this evil world. Then God gives to us a new world in which dwells righteousness for both us and God to dwell in. Christ will not dwell in a world that still has unrighteous people or any chance of being corrupt. Means when He comes, it won't be to rule over this world, but it will be for Him to rule over a new world, the new earth and new heaven,

Hebrews 9
27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

Luke 17

22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, [h]‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

2 Peter 2

4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)— 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, (when Christ returns) 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of [c]dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.

1 Peter 1, refer back to Acts 3 what Peter says

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance [b]incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been [c]grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not [d]seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

Peter says we will receive an undefiled inheritance!
Jesus tells us the meek will inherit the earth!
This must mean the earth we will inherit must be undefiled, meaning not having been corrupted, it will be the new earth we receive from God to dwell in

 

[Davy]

It's not necessarily that I can't understand what was written. It's more that I'm having a hard time following your explanation for your view on how you believe it should be understood. That's why I'm asking clarifying questions.

It is not... 'my view' that I am presenting to you. Have you not even read the Zechariah 14 Scripture that I referenced? That is what I'm asking why you don't appear to believe it as written. There is no debate of what 'timing' that Zechariah 14 Scripture is showing, it is covering the day of Christ's future return with all His saints to this earth, and thereafter. That fact about Zechariah 14 cannot be debated. But you appear to not want... to believe that Scripture as written, so why is that?

 

[Davy]

Ok, so it seems you are saying the literal earth is forever (psalm 104),

Not 'me' saying that, it is God in His Word Who is saying that as He moved His servants via The Holy Spirit...

Ps 104:5
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
KJV

Ps 96:10
10 Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: He shall judge the people righteously.
KJV

Eccl 1:4
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV

therefore when the Bible talks about heaven and earth passing away or vanishing (2 peter 3, Revelation 6, revelation 20, etc...), it's not literal the physical heaven and earth disappearing, but is instead should be metaphorically understood for the works of man being burned off the earth and the heavenly realm being changed/opened up to everyone?

There will be earth changes on the day of Christ's future return; I would never deny that. The Old Testament prophets speak of it, especially Ezekiel and Isaiah. The idea of heaven being rolled together like a scroll, and all the mountains and hills being moved out of their place, represents those coming changes. But it will not literally turn this earth into an asteroid belt like how some wrongly interpret the 2 Peter 3:10 verse.

I already pointed out that the Greek word for "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10 does not mean earthly matter, but instead the idea of a serial time, like a world earth age. We are in a 2nd world earth age, what Peter called "the heavens and the earth, which are now."

NT:4747
stoicheion (stoy-khi'-on); neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of NT:4748; something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively):

KJV - element, principle, rudiment.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


You should go through The Old Testament Books of God's prophets and learn about these things:

Isa 29:6-8
6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.

8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.
KJV

"Ariel" above is put for Jerusalem. God is even giving an analogy with the above about that last day when His "consuming fire" will come upon this earth. He is using the idea of a starving man having a dream of a feast, but when he suddenly wakes up he discovers he is still starving. That idea of his waking up is analogous to the "change" on the "last trump" on the day of Jesus' future coming, the "day of the Lord." On that day flesh bodies for mankind are going to be cast off. Everyone is going to manifest in their spirit body at that event, and it will happen as fast as one can blink an eye. That is how all eyes shall see Christ coming in the clouds, as He revealed in Revelation 1. The heavenly dimension is going to be opened up right here, on earth for all, on that day.

The Isaiah 25:7-8 Scripture is where Apostle Paul was quoting from in 1 Cor.15:54-55 about death being swallowed up in victory. And what subject was Paul covering there in those verses? He was covering the future change to the "spiritual body", and "this mortal" (soul) putting on "immortality". And recall Revelation 21:4 shows that when the time for the new heavens and a new earth does come (after the Rev.20:11-15 events), there shall be no more death, and no more sea.

Rev 21:1-4
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

But that "new heaven and a new earth" won't happen until the "second death" is no more. And what is that "second death"? It is not another death of one's flesh body, for the time of man in the flesh will be over on the day of Christ's future coming. The "second death" is about one's spirit with soul cast into the future "lake of fire". You do understand that our spirit with soul is separated from our flesh when our flesh body dies, right? If not then see Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 and Matthew 10:28.

Then, a study in Ezekiel 47 reveals in that future time after Christ's future return, His Millennial "sanctuary" will manifest in the holy land, on earth, with God's River of the Waters of Life flowing out from under it, and waters upon this earth that it contacts with will be healed. And on either side of that River will be the many trees whose fruit will not be consumed, and the leaf for medicine.

Ezek 47:12
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
KJV

That is actually a parallel to what Christ revealed through His Apostle John in Revelation 22.

 

[Taken]

You're talking about thinking the rapture will occur before the tribulation. That isn't what scripture teaches. Jesus said it will occur AFTER the tribulation of those days (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). So, it makes me wonder if you believe that just because you are afraid of tribulation.

Matt 24:
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:
[24] But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

WHO say you “specifically” ARE the “elect”?

It's not even worth taking any time to respond to this gibberish.

Very Odd, you think delineating between;
Man AGAINST man
And
God AGAINST man
Is beyond your comprehension and gibberish to your ears.

Was the question too hard for you to answer? You indicated that you think I will miss the rapture and God's wrath will come down upon me. So, that would indicate that you think I'm not saved. Do you believe that I'm not saved? Yes or no?

You saved or not?
I don’t know you, or wonder, or guess if you are or are not saved.

Passages you identified shall occur AFTER The Tribulation and Wrath of the Lamb.

Why is the Lamb of God Angry at men Who “ARE” Save?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Not 'me' saying that, it is God in His Word Who is saying that as He moved His servants via The Holy Spirit...

Ps 104:5
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
KJV

Ps 96:10
10 Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: He shall judge the people righteously.
KJV

Eccl 1:4
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV



There will be earth changes on the day of Christ's future return; I would never deny that. The Old Testament prophets speak of it, especially Ezekiel and Isaiah. The idea of heaven being rolled together like a scroll, and all the mountains and hills being moved out of their place, represents those coming changes. But it will not literally turn this earth into an asteroid belt like how some wrongly interpret the 2 Peter 3:10 verse.

No one here is saying that it will "literally turn this earth into an asteroid belt", so why are you arguing against that idea?

But, the changes that will take place are enough to consider the heavens and earth to be made new, won't they? How do you figure that these changes to the heavens and the earth don't result in "the new heavens and new earth where righteousness dwells" (2 Peter 3:13)? In 2 Peter 3:13 Peter indicates that despite what he wrote in 2 Peter 3:10-12 "in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.". Is he not saying that despite what he said in verses 10 to 12 we should not think that he was saying the heavens and earth will be annihilated which would make us wonder where our eternal home could be, but he was instead saying that they will be renewed by fire resulting in the new heavens and new earth where we will spend eternity?

"Ariel" above is put for Jerusalem. God is even giving a analogy with the above about that last day when His "consuming fire" will come upon this earth. He is using the idea of a starving man having a dream of a feast, but when he suddenly wakes up he discovers he is still starving. That idea of his waking up is analogous to the "change" on the "last trump" on the day of Jesus' future coming, the "day of the Lord." On that day flesh bodies for mankind is going to be cast off. Everyone is going to manifest in their spirit body at that event, and it will happen as fast as one can blink an eye. That is how all eyes shall see Christ coming in the clouds, as He revealed in Revelation 1. The heavenly dimension is going to be opened up right here, on earth for all, on that day.

The Isaiah 25:7-8 Scripture is where Apostle Paul was quoting from in 1 Cor.15:54-55 about death being swallowed up in victory. And what subject was Paul covering there in those verses? He was covering the future change to the "spiritual body", and "this mortal" (soul) putting on "immortality". And recall Revelation 21:4 shows that when the time for the new heavens and a new earth does come (after the Rev.20:11-15 events), there shall be no more death, and no more sea.

Rev 21:1-4
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

But that "new heaven and a new earth" won't happen until the "second death" is no more. And what is that "second death"? It is not another death of one's flesh body, for the time of man in the flesh will be over on the day of Christ's future coming. The "second death" is about one's spirit with soul cast into the future "lake of fire". You do understand that our spirit with soul is separated from our flesh when our flesh body dies, right? If not then see Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 and Matthew 10:28.

How can 1 Corinthians 15:54 not be talking about the same thing as Revelation 21:4 when they are both quoting Isaiah 25:8? Why would you think that the time when death is swallowed up in victory will not be the same time when there is no more death? How can death be swallowed up in victory at the last trumpet but then continue for 1,000+ more years as you believe?

 

[Davy]

It’s because Peter only “hinted” at the millennium, he didn’t really know the full details yet, since the revelation had not “revealed” prior to his death…………….
Not sure why Jesus would wait until after the deaths of the apostles to fully “reveal” the true chronology of the eschaton?

We really cannot take that view that Christ's Apostles didn't know about His future reign and the earth changes that are to occur with His future return (like I showed in Isaiah and Ezekiel).

Just the fact that those earth changes are written of in The Old Testament prophets on the "day of the Lord" confirms that the Apostles knew about those things, for The Old Testament Scriptures is what they followed in their day. And Jesus taught them personally.

Revelation 20 doesn’t mention anything about the heavens and earth passing away, whether figurative or literal, until AFTER the millennium (revelation 20:11), so I’m trying to understand why @Davy has it taking place BEFORE the millennium?

I don't have the new heavens and a new earth taking place PRIOR to the Rev.20 Millennium. You have chosen to make that idea up in your mind yourself because of not understanding enough of The Old Testament prophets about it, nor what all Christ's Book of Revelation reveals about it.

Revelation 21:22 reveals that when the new heavens and a new earth period comes, there will be NO MORE TEMPLE (i.e., Millennium "sanctuary"). Zechariah 6 reveals The "BRANCH" will build the temple when He comes, which is a direct reference to Lord Jesus Christ at His future return. And the Ezekiel 47 chapter emphatically reveals the manifesting of that future Millennial "sanctuary", to include the return of God's River of the Waters of Life with it.

But with Revelation 21:22, in the new heavens and a new earth time, there will be no more temple, no more Millennial sanctuary, because The Father and The Son it says will be the Temple thereof. That suggests God's River will then literally flow out from God's Throne on earth in that future new heavens and a new earth time. And the prophets reveal at that time a return of Eden to this earth when The Father returns.

Even Revelation 22:14-15 is revealing the existence of Jerusalem with the Tree of Life manifested inside its gates, while the wicked dwell outside it gates. Jesus spoke of those cast to the "outer darkness" when He returns, and most likely outside the gates of the future "beloved city" Jerusalem on earth is where He was pointing to. So we cannot look at the Revelation 22 Chapter and think, well this is all new heavens and a new earth timing, because the wicked will not be there for the new heavens a new earth time. They instead will be destroyed at the "second death" of Revelation 20:11-15, which is just prior to the new heavens and a new earth time. Thus the Revelation 22:14-15 events actually belong in the order of Revelation 20 with Christ's Millennial reign time over His enemies.

 

[WPM]

No. Satan is restrained right now. The bottomless pit is the means of restraint, guarded over by Michael who is the restrainer. Michael is the high angel who has always fought and restrained the devil. Why create anything more than that for doctrine? Where else is Satan being restrained alluded to in Revelation? This is the only place.

2 Thessalonians 2
New King James Version
The Great Apostasy
1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
**********************************************************
And where do all these huge numbers of unbelieving wicked come from ? They are already here now.
*******************************************************

Rev 20

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

***********************************************************

That fire is when Christ returns in flaming fire and is the day of vengeance of our God.

Perhaps part of the problem is people reading Revelation as if it is linear time, but it is not linear like a movie.
And also not paying attention to the doctrines of Christ and the apostles about the Day of the Lord.

If you are premill, then you can not agree with Christ's teaching as in the Parable of the Tares, for one example.

The Holy Spirit is God's only restrainer of the spirit of lawlessness.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Matt 24:
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Mark 13:
[24] But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
[25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
[26] And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
[27] And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

WHO say you “specifically” ARE the “elect”?

The church, of course. The elect are everyone who belongs to Christ.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

In the passage above Paul refers to those who are in the church and asks "If God be for us, who can be against us"? And he asks "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect?" in reference to those who are in the church.

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

In this passage Paul is speaking to Jew and Gentile believers in the church of the Colossians and he called them "the elect of God".

1 Thessalonians 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ. 2 We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Here, Paul refers to Jew and Gentile believers in the church of the Thessalonians as elect by referencing their "election of God".

Very Odd, you think delineating between;
Man AGAINST man
And
God AGAINST man
Is beyond your comprehension and gibberish to your ears.

LOL. I'm not calling that gibberish, I'm calling your interpretation of scripture gibberish. In terms of God's wrath, that tribulation will come down when Jesus returns and it will not come down on us. Instead, we will be changed to pout on immortality and be caught up to meet Christ in the air.

You saved or not?
I don’t know you, or wonder, or guess if you are or are not saved.

By saying that God's wrath will come upon me, as you did earlier by saying I will miss the rapture, you are then saying I'm not saved because God's wrath only comes down on those who are not saved. So, are you sticking with your claim that I will miss the rapture and experience God's wrath or not?

Passages you identified shall occur AFTER The Tribulation and Wrath of the Lamb.

Which passages exactly? I have identified a lot of passages, so I doubt you mean all of them.

Why is the Lamb of God Angry at men Who “ARE” Save?

He's not.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

We really cannot take that view that Christ's Apostles didn't know about His future reign and the earth changes that are to occur with His future return (like I showed in Isaiah and Ezekiel).

Just the fact that those earth changes are written of in The Old Testament prophets on the "day of the Lord" confirms that the Apostles knew about those things, for The Old Testament Scriptures is what they followed in their day. And Jesus taught them personally.

So, what do you think is the reason that Jesus said nothing and the Apostles did not write about that supposed future reign on the earth then?

I don't have the new heavens and a new earth taking place PRIOR to the Rev.20 Millennium. You have chosen to make that idea up in your mind yourself because of not understanding enough of The Old Testament prophets about it, nor what all Christ's Book of Revelation reveals about it.

Yeah, you have death being swallowed up in victory when Christ returns, and you even reference Isaiah 25:8 in relation to that, but somehow you don't have "no more death" after His return despite the fact that Revelation 21:4 also references Isaiah 25:8.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

The Holy Spirit is God's only restrainer of the spirit of lawlessness.

Right. That is never said about Michael. He is said to be a protector of Israel in particular, not the world (Daniel 12:1), and he apparently has a similar role in heaven, according to Revelation 12:7-9. But, he is never said to be the restrainer of wickedness in the world. That is the Holy Spirit. Only someone all powerful can do that.

 

[Scott Downey]

Right. That is never said about Michael. He is said to be a protector of Israel in particular, not the world (Daniel 12:1), and he apparently has a similar role in heaven, according to Revelation 12:7-9. But, he is never said to be the restrainer of wickedness in the world. That is the Holy Spirit. Only someone all powerful can do that.

Michael is more powerful than Satan.
Rev 12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they [a]did not prevail, nor was a place found for [b]them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Now why did God simply not cast Satan out by Himself? Cause God has a purpose for celestial beings, and delegates authority. There is a hierarchy in Heaven and on earth.


And we read an angel seals Satan in the pit
Rev 20
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

And God uses means, and has angels, and angels battle each other, holy angels versus fallen angels. God did not seal Satan in the pit Himself, God used an angel to do that, and restrained the devil.

I do not think all the fallen angels are locked in Tartarus, just the ones who sinned with the Nephilim affair. I mean Satan is a fallen angel and he is not locked in Tartarus to await the day of judgment.

Some of these angels have titles, and one is Prince. Not all angels are the same authorities.

Daniel 10

Prophecies Concerning Persia and Greece​

10 Suddenly, a hand touched me, which made me tremble on my knees and on the palms of my hands. 11 And he said to me, “O Daniel, man greatly beloved, understand the words that I speak to you, and stand upright, for I have now been sent to you.” While he was speaking this word to me, I stood trembling.

12 Then he said to me, “Do not fear, Daniel, for from the first day that you set your heart to understand, and to humble yourself before your God, your words were heard; and I have come because of your words. 13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come.”

~~~~~~~~~~~
20 Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.

Satan, Jesus and Paul calls him the prince of this world, or ruler depending on translations.

Ephesians 2:2
in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,

KJ21
“Hereafter I will not talk much with you, for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in Me.
ASV
I will no more speak much with you, for the prince of the world cometh: and he hath nothing in me;
AMP
I will not speak with you much longer, for the ruler of the world (Satan) is coming. And he has no claim on Me [no power over Me nor anything that he can use against Me];
AMPC
I will not talk with you much more, for the prince (evil genius, ruler) of the world is coming. And he has no claim on Me. [He has nothing in common with Me; there is nothing in Me that belongs to him, and he has no power over Me.]

 

[Scott Downey]

When Satan is released, the restrainer, a he, is taken away? How can that be God being taken away? But yes, it could be an angel functioning as a jailer. At some point God tells that angel to let Satan loose from the restraint.


5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

************
The above depends on your view of who is being restrained... evil people? Satan? Personally I believe Satan is restrained. In scripture,, angels announce to let those who are unjust be unjust still, filthy be filthy still, without correction or restraint.
They are not restrained in the way described above.

Rev 22

8 Now I, John, [c]saw and heard these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel who showed me these things.

9 Then he said to me, “See that you do not do that. [d]For I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren the prophets, and of those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.” 10 And he said to me, “Do not seal the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is at hand. 11 He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him [e]be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

 

[claninja]

It is not... 'my view' that I am presenting to you. Have you not even read the Zechariah 14 Scripture that I referenced? That is what I'm asking why you don't appear to believe it as written. There is no debate of what 'timing' that Zechariah 14 Scripture is showing, it is covering the day of Christ's future return with all His saints to this earth, and thereafter. That fact about Zechariah 14 cannot be debated. But you appear to not want... to believe that Scripture as written, so why is that?

There are multiple views represented in this forum on how to interpret the passages, each claiming their view “is not my view” but is “what is written in scripture”. Some are claiming to be spiritually minded, while calling the other carnally minded. So you’ll have to understand, I’m going to take your interpretation of the passages with a grain of salt.

 

[Scott Downey]

There are multiple views represented in this forum on how to interpret the passages, each claiming their view “is not my view” but is “what is written in scripture”. Some are claiming to be spiritually minded, while calling the other carnally minded. So you’ll have to understand, I’m going to take your interpretation of the passages with a grain of salt.

There are no survivors when Christ returns who are unsaved persons.
Who will you believe Christ ?, Or what someone else says. The only survivors of the nations when Christ returns are saved persons, some from every nation will be saved.

Even the example Christ gives of Noah and Lot as to what will happen when He returns says like this, destroyed them all, no exceptions.

Luke 17
22 Then He said to the disciples, “The days will come when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it. 23 And they will say to you, [h]‘Look here!’ or ‘Look there!’ Do not go after them or follow them. 24 For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day. 25 But first He must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. 26 And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27 They ate, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all. 28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Michael is more powerful than Satan.
Rev 12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they [a]did not prevail, nor was a place found for [b]them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Now why did God simply not cast Satan out by Himself? Cause God has a purpose for celestial beings, and delegates authority. There is a hierarchy in Heaven and on earth.

Michael and his angels kicking Satan and his angels out of heaven has nothing to do with the restraining of evil on the earth. Michael was in charge of protecting Israel, not the entire earth.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

And we read an angel seals Satan in the pit
Rev 20
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.

And God uses means, and has angels, and angels battle each other, holy angels versus fallen angels. God did not seal Satan in the pit Himself, God used an angel to do that, and restrained the devil.

I do not think all the fallen angels are locked in Tartarus, just the ones who sinned with the Nephilim affair. I mean Satan is a fallen angel and he is not locked in Tartarus to await the day of judgment.

I don't believe any of them are. I believe that is figurative text. It refers to all of them being there, but it's figurative. No fallen angels are literally chained up anywhere. I don't need a lesson on angels, so please don't waste your time on that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When Satan is released, the restrainer, a he, is taken away? How can that be God being taken away?

How can it be an angel being taken away? It's not talking about anyone being literally taken away. It's talking about the Holy Spirit's restraining influence being taken away. It's talking about the power of the gospel having a reduced affect on the world because of the increase of wickedness and the mass falling away from the faith that both Jesus and Paul talked about.

 

[claninja]

Not 'me' saying that, it is God in His Word Who is saying that as He moved His servants via The Holy Spirit...

Ps 104:5
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
KJV

Ps 96:10
10 Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: He shall judge the people righteously.
KJV

Eccl 1:4
4 One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.
KJV



There will be earth changes on the day of Christ's future return; I would never deny that. The Old Testament prophets speak of it, especially Ezekiel and Isaiah. The idea of heaven being rolled together like a scroll, and all the mountains and hills being moved out of their place, represents those coming changes. But it will not literally turn this earth into an asteroid belt like how some wrongly interpret the 2 Peter 3:10 verse.

I already pointed out that the Greek word for "elements" in 2 Peter 3:10 does not mean earthly matter, but instead the idea of a serial time, like a world earth age. We are in a 2nd world earth age, what Peter called "the heavens and the earth, which are now."

NT:4747
stoicheion (stoy-khi'-on); neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of NT:4748; something orderly in arrangement, i.e. (by implication) a serial (basal, fundamental, initial) constituent (literally), proposition (figuratively):

KJV - element, principle, rudiment.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)


You should go through The Old Testament Books of God's prophets and learn about these things:

Isa 29:6-8
6 Thou shalt be visited of the LORD of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

7 And the multitude of all the nations that fight against Ariel, even all that fight against her and her munition, and that distress her, shall be as a dream of a night vision.

8 It shall even be as when an hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh, and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite: so shall the multitude of all the nations be, that fight against mount Zion.
KJV

"Ariel" above is put for Jerusalem. God is even giving an analogy with the above about that last day when His "consuming fire" will come upon this earth. He is using the idea of a starving man having a dream of a feast, but when he suddenly wakes up he discovers he is still starving. That idea of his waking up is analogous to the "change" on the "last trump" on the day of Jesus' future coming, the "day of the Lord." On that day flesh bodies for mankind are going to be cast off. Everyone is going to manifest in their spirit body at that event, and it will happen as fast as one can blink an eye. That is how all eyes shall see Christ coming in the clouds, as He revealed in Revelation 1. The heavenly dimension is going to be opened up right here, on earth for all, on that day.

The Isaiah 25:7-8 Scripture is where Apostle Paul was quoting from in 1 Cor.15:54-55 about death being swallowed up in victory. And what subject was Paul covering there in those verses? He was covering the future change to the "spiritual body", and "this mortal" (soul) putting on "immortality". And recall Revelation 21:4 shows that when the time for the new heavens and a new earth does come (after the Rev.20:11-15 events), there shall be no more death, and no more sea.

Rev 21:1-4
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
KJV

But that "new heaven and a new earth" won't happen until the "second death" is no more. And what is that "second death"? It is not another death of one's flesh body, for the time of man in the flesh will be over on the day of Christ's future coming. The "second death" is about one's spirit with soul cast into the future "lake of fire". You do understand that our spirit with soul is separated from our flesh when our flesh body dies, right? If not then see Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 and Matthew 10:28.

Then, a study in Ezekiel 47 reveals in that future time after Christ's future return, His Millennial "sanctuary" will manifest in the holy land, on earth, with God's River of the Waters of Life flowing out from under it, and waters upon this earth that it contacts with will be healed. And on either side of that River will be the many trees whose fruit will not be consumed, and the leaf for medicine.

Ezek 47:12
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.
KJV

That is actually a parallel to what Christ revealed through His Apostle John in Revelation 22.

The view that you are putting forth here on how you interpret the scriptures, is difficult to follow. I’m honestly puzzled with your attempt at explaining how you at stringing things together.

So let’s start with something simple. According to revelation 20, when does the earth and heaven vanish, before the millennium or after the millennium?

 

[claninja]

We really cannot take that view that Christ's Apostles didn't know about His future reign and the earth changes that are to occur with His future return (like I showed in Isaiah and Ezekiel).

Just the fact that those earth changes are written of in The Old Testament prophets on the "day of the Lord" confirms that the Apostles knew about those things, for The Old Testament Scriptures is what they followed in their day. And Jesus taught them personally.

the argument is not that the apostles didn’t know about Christs reign or “future earth changes”. The argument is they didn’t know about a future reign where the dead are resurrected and reign with Christ on earth for a literal 1000 years.

I don't have the new heavens and a new earth taking place PRIOR to the Rev.20 Millennium. You have chosen to make that idea up in your mind yourself because of not understanding enough of The Old Testament prophets about it, nor what all Christ's Book of Revelation reveals about it.

I never said you had the NHNE taking place prior to the millennium. So I have no idea what you are talking about.

I’m trying to figure out where in revelation 20 you are placing the passing away or vanishing of the heavens and earth? Before or after the millennium?

 

[Taken]

The church, of course. The elect are everyone who belongs to Christ.

This IS expressly “the elect”?
What about the Prophets, before Christ was Revealed?

 

[Taken]

. In terms of God's wrath, that tribulation will come down when Jesus returns

Jesus’ “Return” means “Jesus Again “ON” Earth.

So, according to you, Jesus will BE ON EARTH, when Gods Wrath IS poured out upon the Earth?

and it will not come down on us. Instead, we will be changed to pout on immortality and be caught up to meet Christ in the air.

So according to your word, Christ IN the Air “AND” ON Earth?