MORE PROOF OF THE PRETRIB RAPTURE

[rebuilder 454]

Mat 25
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.


Luke 21
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Two instances of carnal believers vs spiritual believers.
...and the fate of the 2 at the rapture

 

[WPM]

Mat 25
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.


Luke 21
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Two instances of carnal believers vs spiritual believers.
...and the fate of the 2 at the rapture

More proof? You have got to be kidding! You have yet to bring evidence to the table. I think you think if you keep repeating this that it will somehow become true. It will not. It does not add up. It does not make sense. Your beliefs have been utterly refuted on this forum and you have ducked around the responses. You have to. That is because Pretrib does not add up. It has no biblical support. You know it. That is why you avoid the obvious.

Jesus said in Matthew 25:1-13: “Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps. While the bridegroom tarried (the intra-Advent period), they all slumbered and slept. And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom; ‘go ye out’ [Gr. exerchomai] to meet him. Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came [Gr. erchomai]; and they that were ready ‘went in’ [Gr. eiserchomai] with him to the marriage: and the door was shut. Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.”

Most end-time commentators correctly relate this passage to the coming of Christ. Whilst we cannot find any mention of phrases like “caught up” or “gathering together” in this text there is broad agreement that there is a definite reference to the catching away or rescue of the saints in the direction “go ye out” and the resulting action – they “went in.”

The command “go ye out”is simply one Greek word exerchomai meaning depart, escape, or get out, go. The phrase describing the response of the faithful “went in” is the single Greek word eiserchomai normally translated in the New Testament as to ‘come in’ or ‘to enter’. It can also be interpreted ‘to arise’. In keeping with many second coming passages there is an allusion to those who escape the judgment of God as being those who made themselves “ready.” This is a common theme found in regard to the catching away. It certainly correlates with the consistent portrayal of this impending climactic event. This passage is basically a call for preparedness for Christ’s coming.

The parable of the virgins actually agrees totally with the climactic nature of the coming of Christ. Men are either caught up or caught on. Being ready means rescue, being locked outside means destruction. Interpreting Scripture with Scripture would assist you here. As in Noah’s day, “the door was shut” – the day of opportunity was final closed – and those left outside were totally destroyed.

The solemn side of this parable is the awful plight of the five foolish virgins who had no oil in their lamps. Like the wicked that were left in Noah’s day, the religious will cry when it is too late: “Lord, Lord, open to us.” The only problem is it is too late. The solemn cry will come from the Master, “Verily I say unto you, I know you not” (vv 11-12). This is exactly what Jesus says to the wicked at the final judgment. He isn't saying: ‘welcome to a 7 year tribulation period’ or ‘welcome to the Premil millennium for another chance’. Sadly, they are damned and doomed for all eternity.

 

[WPM]

Mat 25
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.


Luke 21
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Two instances of carnal believers vs spiritual believers.
...and the fate of the 2 at the rapture

We see the same scene (and similar language) in Matthew 7:21-23: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

Which “day” is Jesus talking about? His return. There are many people like that in this world. They have religion, but no real relationship. It says here: what they did in life was “in His name,” yet they were locked outside. They ask Jesus: “have we not ... in thy name done many wonderful works?” From this statement we can take it: they expected to be in heaven. However, Jesus will say to them, “I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”

How will these religious people handle these sobering words of Christ on that final day of judgement? They were foolish to swallow a religious lie. They sat under preaching that told them that they could get to heaven by their own good works. All their religious efforts were in vain. It was a sham. The foolish virgins are locked outside because they reject Christ; Christ then rejects them at the end. That is why He doesn’t know them. He has no relationship with them. Their religion is vain. It is bogus. They have missed their opportunity, now they must receive the judgment. This is just a parallel of all that were locked outside the ark at the flood. They are going to be banished into outer darkness – for all eternity with the rest of the wicked.

Those awful words “depart from me, ye that work iniquity” spell eternal damnation for every person left outside of the ark when Jesus comes. People are either ‘caught up’ or ‘caught on’. In fact anytime Jesus employed these words it always referred to His coming and the solemn sentences that damned the ungodly. Jesus said of the goats in Matthew 25:41: “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels.”

The Lord similarly teaches in Luke 13:24-28, “Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Oh what an awful day that will be, when the wicked find themselves locked outside of God’s ark – the Lord Jesus Christ. Damned without hope or without Christ. This reminds me of the actual day that Noah entered into the ark in Genesis 7:16. It solemnly tells us of Noah and the ark door, “and the LORD shut him in.” What happened to those locked outside. They were totally and immediately destroyed.

The whole unsaved world will see Jesus return when He comes (Rev 1:7) and realize they have missed it. This is where they mourn and cry (or knock as the parable of the 10 virgins put it), but it is too late. Jesus then pours out His wrath on these rebels causing their immediate and total destruction. Jesus tells us that it will be like Noah's day when Jesus locked His elect in and those outside the door who missed the boat were immediately judged. He destroyed them all (Luke 17). It was same in the city of Sodom. He destroyed all the wicked after bringing His elect out (Luke 17).

 

[WPM]

Luke 21
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Two instances of carnal believers vs spiritual believers.
...and the fate of the 2 at the rapture

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 says: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The coming of Christ is a destructive day will catch the wicked unexpected and unprepared but the righteous waiting and ready. We are caught up before the wicked are destroyed with "sudden destruction" and 'none escape'. We are going to be rescued just before the wrath of God is poured out and everyone left behind suffers "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape."

The Greek word aifnídios is only found in one other passage in Scripture – Luke 21:33-36. Here it is also identified with the unexpected nature of the second coming, where Christ declares: “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly]. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

So, "they (the wicked) shall not escape" the "sudden destruction" that accompanies Christ's return, but we (the redeemed) are "accounted worthy to escape." It will come upon the rebel "unawares." This is describing the same climactic event. It is the end. Men are either ready or caught unexpectedly; they are caught up or caught on. They are either saved or lost. It is now eternal bliss or eternal torment.

Christ is exhorting His listeners here to be ready for His return, and warning that He will pour out His wrath upon all mankind who are not prepared, ready and rescued. This is the time when the heavens and the earth shall pass away.

The phrase "all these things" (that Pretribbers keep getting tripped up on every time this is discussed) is not everything the Left Behind novels have taught them (including some imaginary future 7-year trib), it is talking about the total destruction and removal of the wicked and current corrupted creation. Read what the text is actually saying.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Mat 25
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.


Luke 21
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Two instances of carnal believers vs spiritual believers.
...and the fate of the 2 at the rapture

What you call "carnal believers" are lost, unsaved people since Jesus will not say "I don't know you" to saved people. Their belief is no different than the demons who believe and shudder. That is not the kind of faith that Jesus wants people to have. They will be cast into the fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. That's what Jesus said in Luke 13 regarding what will happen to those who say "Lord, Lord, open to us", like those represented by the foolish virgins will do, when Jesus comes (Matt 25:10-12).

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

[Keraz]

We who refute and speak against the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, do so out of concern for our fellow Christians, who have been lied to and deceived by their teachers.
There is no definitive scripture that says God intends to take His people up to heaven in these end times. There are, in fact quite a few that say He won't:
John 3:13, John 17:15, John 7:34, John 8:21-23, 1 Cor 1:7-9, 1 Cor 10:13, 1 Peter 4:12-19, Jeremiah 25:29, Proverbs 10:30 Psalms 115:16, Psalms 37:29, Revelation 2:25-26

I am aware of the problem of many Christians, in that the 'rapture' is the only teaching for the Church, before Jesus Returns. One American I spoke to said: The rapture is all I have ever been taught.
This is a very sad state of affairs, as this false theory has set up many to fall from their faith, when they expect to be raptured, doesn't happen.

Here is a quote from Art Katz, a messianic Jew: “Nothing has more disarmed the Church of the necessity for preparation, discipleship and maturity that can stand strong in faith, in these end times; than the mistaken idea of a rapture to heaven, so they won’t have to face the Lord’s wrath”.
What we are told to do when things get bad, is to 'Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved.' Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

Also, with the 'rapture' belief, you miss out on knowing the amazing promises of God, of how He will protect and bless His faithful people, as they live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land.

There are many prophesies telling us about God's plans, do not make the mistake of attributing His Blessings to the Jews. They have lost the Kingdom, Matthew 21:43, and we Christians, Jew and Gentile, are the inheritors of God's promises. Ephesians 3:6, Romans 8:16-18, Galatians 3:26-29, as followers of Jesus, the One true Israel, thru whom all the promises of God will be fulfilled. 2 Corinthians 1:20

 

[rebuilder 454]

What you call "carnal believers" are lost, unsaved people since Jesus will not say "I don't know you" to saved people. Their belief is no different than the demons who believe and shudder. That is not the kind of faith that Jesus wants people to have. They will be cast into the fire where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. That's what Jesus said in Luke 13 regarding what will happen to those who say "Lord, Lord, open to us", like those represented by the foolish virgins will do, when Jesus comes (Matt 25:10-12).

Luke 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets. 27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity. 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

The seven letters to the seven churches are to believers,not to unbelievers.
Jesus said to believers, "I would that you were cold or hot ,but because you are lukewarm I will spew you out of my mouth".
That is what Jesus is saying in both instances, when he says "I know you not," he is saying in a legal sense, "I cannot reward you".
Also in 1st Corinthians, Paul is addressing believers as carnal, and others as spiritual. Paul said concerning the carnal ones," have nothing to do with them, but admonish them as a brother".
. So I am standing firmly and solidly on the word of God, whereas you are just using your imagination

 

[GRACE ambassador]

We who refute and speak against the 'rapture to heaven' doctrine, do so out of concern for our fellow Christians, who have been lied to and deceived by their teachers.

Precious friend, Keraz, we appreciate your 'concern'; however, some of us have not been deceived By The Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

Our { All of The Body Of Christ } hope for "heaven":

1) The Day Of Christ {Light!} Is In Heaven! While "The Day Of Darkness" is on earth.

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 AV . . . . . . . cp . . . . . . . . Amos 5:18 AV)​

2) "And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we Shall Also Bear the image of the heavenly!"

(1 Corinthians 15:49 AV)​

3) Paul, the One apostle "to the Gentiles" is the prototype of the "Departure Of The One Body Of Christ" To Heaven!

(2 Corinthians 12:2 AV)​

4) we have "...a building of God, our ETERNAL house ..." Where? "ETERNAL in the Heavens!" [ "...from Heaven!! ]

(2 Corinthians 5:1-2 AV)​

5) Again, our hope has already been Stablished By God Himself, before our Departure to our Heavenly Home!:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us​

with all spiritual blessings in Heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3 cp 2:6 AV)​

6) How much More Plain Can God Be?:

"For our conversation [ citizenship ] Is IN Heaven; from whence also​

we look for the Saviour, The Lord Jesus Christ" (Philippians 3:20 AV)​

7) "And The Lord Shall Deliver me from every evil work, and Will Preserve me Unto His

HEAVENLY kingdom: to Whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (2 Timothy 4:18 AV)​

And, AMEN! = NO deceit Whatsoever In God's Word Of Truth, When Rightly Divided!! Praise Him!!!

-----------------

More here:

A) Grace, Peace, Mercy, and Love!
+
B) God's Great GRACE Departure ( To Heaven )!
=
Comfort! (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 AV!)

 

[rebuilder 454]

Precious friend, Keraz, we appreciate your 'concern'; however, some of us have not been deceived By The Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

Our { All of The Body Of Christ } hope for "heaven":

1) The Day Of Christ {Light!} Is In Heaven! While "The Day Of Darkness" is on earth.

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 AV . . . . . . . cp . . . . . . . . Amos 5:18 AV)​

2) "And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we Shall Also Bear the image of the heavenly!"

(1 Corinthians 15:49 AV)​

3) Paul, the One apostle "to the Gentiles" is the prototype of the "Departure Of The One Body Of Christ" To Heaven!

(2 Corinthians 12:2 AV)​

4) we have "...a building of God, our ETERNAL house ..." Where? "ETERNAL in the Heavens!" [ "...from Heaven!! ]

(2 Corinthians 5:1-2 AV)​

5) Again, our hope has already been Stablished By God Himself, before our Departure to our Heavenly Home!:

"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us​

with all spiritual blessings in Heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3 cp 2:6 AV)​

6) How much More Plain Can God Be?:

"For our conversation [ citizenship ] Is IN Heaven; from whence also​

we look for the Saviour, The Lord Jesus Christ" (Philippians 3:20 AV)​

7) "And The Lord Shall Deliver me from every evil work, and Will Preserve me Unto His

HEAVENLY kingdom: to Whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen." (2 Timothy 4:18 AV)​

And, AMEN! = NO deceit Whatsoever In God's Word Of Truth, When Rightly Divided!! Praise Him!!!

-----------------

More here:

A) Grace, Peace, Mercy, and Love!
+
B) God's Great GRACE Departure ( To Heaven )!
=
Comfort! (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 AV!)

Amen
We will be in heaven soon.
To say no, is to cast down Jesus words at the last supper.

Those invoking Satan to condemn their opponent, ironically agree with Satan.
IOW, by misrepresenting God's Holy Word, they are playing out the ministry of satan.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Why do all postribbers invoke and spew Satan on the heads of their opponent in debate????
SMH

 

[Keraz]

Keraz, we appreciate your 'concern'; however, some of us have not been deceived By The Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

Do humans ever go to heaven?

The belief and teaching that all humans have natural immortality via an immortal soul can be traced back thousands of years. We can see from history that nations like Egypt and Babylon taught their people about an immortal soul in every human, that continued to live, to think and to experience life, after the body had died. Depending on the nation and on their spiritual theology they had, would come various teachings about where and under what conditions this immortal soul would experience after the death of the physical body. Some nations would bury the dead body in graves with all kinds of things for the departed to take with them and to use to enjoy in the afterlife.

Different nations may have had different places where the departed soul would live when it left the dead body, but to put it in simple language, the immortal soul was in a "heaven" of some sort. They even had gloomy underworlds for those not thought to have done enough good in their physical lives to warrant the prize of "heaven."

All this should start to sound somewhat familiar with certain teaching and beliefs of many Christian churches and organizations. Many have heard the "hell-fire and brimstone" sermons preached loud and vigorously by a Christian minister or Camp-meeting tent revivalist. Such preaching of course includes telling you that if you "give your heart to the Lord" and turn from sin, you can "go to heaven" and live in bliss, doing...well they are not sure, maybe singing and strumming on a harp?

Just about all Christians today believe they shall "get to heaven" one day. They firmly believe that going to heaven is one of the basic rewards of being Christian. To think, and to teach otherwise, to them, is pretty close to being a nutty and strange heretic. They are convinced the Bible shows and tells us that going to heaven is the automatic reward of the children of God. And most believe that going to heaven takes place when the physical body stops breathing and dies. Yet this common and prevailing theological view was not the common view or teaching of the early New Testament Church of God.

The early NT church did not teach or believe in going to heaven at death, for those faithful Christians. Church history shows that it was only through the teachings of people like Clement of Alexandria, Origen, and others that most professing Christians gradually came to adopt the belief of the immortal soul, and going immediately "somewhere" after the death of the body. Many were coming into the popular church of the Roman Empire, founded in Rome, who already held to Hellenistic philosophy, Egyptian mythology, and Babylonian Mystery religions, with an after death life of some sort as the foundation of it all. They did not want to give up this teaching and belief, just as they did not want to abandon many other false teachings and practices. So, to accommodate them the large popular church took many of these old pagan beliefs and re-clothed them with Christian garments. Hence, as the millenniums came and went today's doctrines of the immortal soul as taught together with an ever burning hell fire for the wicked, a purgatory for those who may not have sinned unto eternal torment, and can possibly yet be granted heaven and a heaven where God is, for the righteous. All this came to be church doctrines.

Most Christians believe they will at some point "get to heaven" where God is dwelling. Some do not believe you go to heaven at death, but that death is a sleep until the resurrection, then when Jesus returns to raise the righteous dead, all go back with Him to heaven for a thousand years, until the new earth comes into being. Others believe that Christ returns to "rapture" His Church away from the terrible tribulation then taking place on the earth, and that they spent either 7 years or 3 1/2 years in heaven, before returning again with Christ to set up the Kingdom of God on earth for a thousand years.

Whatever the various beliefs of certain religious sects and denominations is on this matter, just about all of them teach and believe that the good Christian will someday, for some period of time "go to heaven" where the Father lives and dwells in the heavenly Jerusalem.


IF WE SHALL GO TO HEAVEN ONE DAY....

And if this is a fundamental plain teaching of the Bible, then surely we should be able to find many verses all over the Bible saying things such as: "When we get to heaven," "When we see each other in heaven," "They are up there in heaven with God," "We shall go to heaven at Christ's return," "We shall be in heaven where God is one day." BUT VERSES LIKE THIS CANNOT BE FOUND IN THE BIBLE!

BUT, what we do read in the Bible is the Words of Jesus: No man goes to heaven, except the One who came from there. John 3:13 Where I go, you cannot come. John 7:34 Your home is in this world, Mine is not. John 8:23 I do not pray, Father, that You take them out of this world.... John 17:15

So the truth is, the idea of a 'rapture to heaven', is a straight out Satanic lie; one of his most successful ones, that will cause many unprepared Christians to fall on the Day of trial. 1 Peter 4:12, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15

Most Christians think that heaven is our destination and preachers tout it from the pulpit. Why then didn't the people of the Bible use such language? Could it be that they knew that going off to heaven where God the Father now dwells was NEVER promised to any earthy mortal person?

The word "heaven" is used 570 times in the Bible. "Heavenly" appears 23 times and "heavens" is used 121 times. Surely, somewhere, in all those uses we can find a statement: "When we are in heaven" or "We are going to go to heaven" or maybe "He has gone to God in heaven." If you take a Bible concordance you can find all the verses where "heaven," "heavenly," and heavens" are used throughout the Bible. Look them up! See if you can find a verse that says, "We shall go to heaven," "Heaven is our eternal abode," "They are up in heaven" or any plain statement about Christians or children of God going to be with God in heaven for ANY length of time. You have over 500 places where "heaven" is used. Try to find any verse that tells us clearly we shall someday, sometime, go to live where God the Father dwells.

There are THREE heavens mentioned in the Bible. 1) The heaven [atmosphere] where the birds fly. 2) the heaven [space] where the planets and stars are. 3) The heaven [spiritual] where God's throne is, where God is now.
I knew a man in Christ.... caught up to the THIRD heaven....He was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words....2 Cor. 12:2-4 The third heaven is where God dwells!

KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ?

Some will say, "Well Christ talked about our being in the Kingdom of heaven. Surely that proves we shall 'go to heaven'. If it does, then some shall be in heaven while others are not. Matthew 5:3-5. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the Kingdom of heaven....blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. The Kingdom OF heaven is the Kingdom that BELONGS to heaven. It is owned and operated by heaven. the Kingdom that BELONGS to God, not the Kingdom inside God. The Gospels according to Mark and Luke use "Kingdom OF God"

OUR REWARD IS IN HEAVEN

Is not our reward to go to heaven? Are there not some verses that say something to that effect? Here they are: Rejoice, and be exceeding glad; for great is your reward in heaven.... Matthew 5:12 Do not display your religion before others, if you do you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. Matthew 6:1 But lay up for yourselves treasure in heaven.....Luke 6:23 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled…reserved in heaven for you. 1 Peter 1:4

Now, let's be honest. Do the above verses say: "Our reward is to get to heaven" or "When we get to heaven we shall be given our reward." Do these verses say: "Our reserved inheritance is to get to heaven to be with God" ? No, they do not! Truly, Christians will receive rewards and we are to inherit eternal life, but when? Eternal life comes at the resurrection. Read 1 Cor.15; Rev.2:10; 2 Tim.4:8 Our rewards are to be given to us by Christ at His return. And, behold, I come quickly, and MY REWARD IS WITH ME, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Rev. 22:12 Our rewards and inheritance are reserved in heaven. They come down out of heaven with Christ at his return.

 

[Keraz]

NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?

Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23

Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of life, the book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal after the Great White Throne Judgement, when the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15

OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?

For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in

another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Cor. 15: 13-23

Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall reing as King for 1000 years.

Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for the reality is: we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.

NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN

Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the martyrs, those killed for their faith, Revelation 20:4, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth. Revelation 20:4

At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.

What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. Revelation 21:1-4 But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Isaiah 43:2, +
Ref: Keith Hunt

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Rapture to heaven; also Overlooked is:

From: God's Great GRACE Departure ( To Heaven )!:

...
(3) CHRIST Is { Leaving Heaven } Coming With, ( which Were In Heaven! ),
His armies * on white horses! (Revelation 19:12-15)
+
(4) CHRIST Is Coming To earth With { Only } One army *, “All Of His holy angels,”
In Order To Judge/Make war/Smite And Rule the nations…
(Matthew 25:31; Revelation 19:19)
...

* Note, The ONE army Of The Body Of CHRIST Must "have been
assigned our Heavenly positions" for ruling and reigning!

God's Precious Words Do Have Plain and Clear Meanings - Amen?

Amen.

 

[rebuilder 454]

NAMED TO GO TO HEAVEN?

Are not Christians named and written down in a book to go to heaven? ….but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven Luke 10:20 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven....Heb. 12:23

Do these verses say, "Because you will go to heaven" or "The church of the firstborn will one day get to heaven" ? No! Our names (God knows who are His) are written down in the book of life, the book of life being in heaven. But we receive life eternal after the Great White Throne Judgement, when the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:11-15

OUR HOPE....TO GO TO HEAVEN?

For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof you heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel. Col.1:5 What is the hope for Christians? Paul answers in

another letter he wrote: But if there be NO RESURRECTION of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.....then they which are also fallen asleep in Christ are PERISHED....For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man on his own order: Christ the firstfruits: AFTERWARDS they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING. 1 Cor. 15: 13-23

Our HOPE is Christ, who has been raised from the dead and is now in heaven, waiting to be sent back to this earth when He shall reing as King for 1000 years.

Colossians 1:5 does NOT say, "Our hope is to get to heaven." Or "The church's hope is to be with Christ in heaven." It says: our HOPE is kept in heaven. That hope is Christ and His Return. Philippians 3:20 Christian believers are citizens of heaven and from heaven we can expect our Deliverer to come: The Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice! This Kingdom is in heaven that we are citizens of. If we be Christ's, we belong to His family. We are brothers of His, we are part of God's family, His children, and so of His government, kingdom, which is at present in heaven. Not that we are in heaven, for the reality is: we live on earth, but the Kingdom, where our citizenship is; that we now belong to, is in heaven.

NO MAN HAS EVER GONE TO HEAVEN

Here is a plain and easy to understand verse: And NO MAN has ASCENDED up to heaven, except for He that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. John 3:13 BELIEVE what Christ said, He should know. He was in heaven with the Father from the beginning, and He did not see any human ever come from earth up to heaven. It’s indisputable, Enoch could not have gone to the third heaven, neither did Moses, nor did Elijah. All humans who have ever lived, or will live, up to the Return of Jesus and are not still alive when Jesus comes, will sleep in death. They will be in the grave, and the martyrs, those killed for their faith, Revelation 20:4, wait to hear the voice of the Son of man, to rise from the dead in a resurrection. Then, for a thousand years they shall reign with Christ on His throne over this earth, as they establish the Kingdom of God on earth. Revelation 20:4

At the end of the thousand years comes the new heavens and the new earth. Then the heavenly Jerusalem together with God the Father will come from heaven to this new earth, which will then become the dwelling place of the throne of the universe for all Eternity.

What we can say is that we, the children of God, will one day be in heaven.....yes.....when heaven comes to earth. Revelation 21:1-4 But what we cannot say is that any human will be taken up to heaven to avoid the wrath to come. The Lord promises protection to all these who place their trust in Him and this may be a profound spiritual experience. Nahum 1:1-8, Isaiah 43:2, +
Ref: Keith Hunt

You try to make the word of God a lie.
There are several Verses, omitted by you ,PROVING saints go to heaven.
How can you ignore and butcher the passages?????

 

[Keraz]

You try to make the word of God a lie.
There are several Verses, omitted by you ,PROVING saints go to heaven.
How can you ignore and butcher the passages?????

YOU are the liar and omitter of verses, the whole idea that God has changed His mind and won't allow this present generation of Christians to experience trials and persecution, is simply impossible.
Your attitude and responses to anyone who opposes your beliefs, are seriously bad and are an indictment against you.

I know the Bible very well and I do not see any verses that directly say the saints will go to heaven.
Not even indirectly, like when Paul says: Our citizenship is in heaven. Paul is referring to how our names are Written in the Book of Life; NOT that we will ever live in heaven.
After the Millennium, God and heaven come to the new earth, to be with all those who have proved they are worthy of Eternal life.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Yes, ALL men are liars, time to close this thread which is going down... - _
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[ChristinaL]

Mat 25
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.


Luke 21
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Two instances of carnal believers vs spiritual believers.
...and the fate of the 2 at the rapture

Matt 25 does not actually refer to the Rapture as the marriage supper doesnt happen till the end of the 7 year Tribulation

 

[rebuilder 454]

Matt 25 does not actually refer to the Rapture as the marriage supper doesnt happen till the end of the 7 year Tribulation

I never believed it referred to the marriage feast.
It refers to the gathering of the bride.
It says in Matthew 25 at the bride and the groom go into a room that has a door and that door is shut. That is the exact same pattern of the Jewish wedding. The groom would fetch his bride sometimes it was around midnight and he would take her to a room that he built on to his father's house, and in that room they would consummate the marriage.
There are no postrib rapture verses.
Maybe post one ?
I have never seen one.
In Rev 19 the bride is now called the wife.
The feast is in heaven.
Jesus said I will not drink of the fruit of the vine again until I drink it with you a new, in my father's Kingdom. Jesus made it clear that he was going to heaven and that he would build mansions for his people his bride. There is zero evidence of any marriage supper on Earth. Post-tribbers need a lot of things changed in the word of God.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, ALL men are liars, time to close this thread which is going down... - _
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View attachment 50673

Somebody needs to do a survey of the culprits of the vile nasty bologna that pre-tribors have to put up with.
It is like 10 to 1.
When I push back on these nasty people, it's not them that get called out, it's the one doing the pushback.

 

[rebuilder 454]

YOU are the liar and omitter of verses, the whole idea that God has changed His mind and won't allow this present generation of Christians to experience trials and persecution, is simply impossible.
Your attitude and responses to anyone who opposes your beliefs, are seriously bad and are an indictment against you.

I know the Bible very well and I do not see any verses that directly say the saints will go to heaven.
Not even indirectly, like when Paul says: Our citizenship is in heaven. Paul is referring to how our names are Written in the Book of Life; NOT that we will ever live in heaven.
After the Millennium, God and heaven come to the new earth, to be with all those who have proved they are worthy of Eternal life.

You call me a liar, and pretend you have some high ground.
Do a study in the Bible on PEOPLE IN HEAVEN.
I am forcing you to go against the bible.
Stop making God's word a lie.
Rev alone totally DEMOLISHES ANY HOPE OF YOUR DEAL.
People In heaven? Solid bible teaching and doctrine.
You trying to prove otherwise is beyond foolish and silly.
But it somehow messes with your poorly thought out doctrine.
That is the real problem here.
People in heaven demolishes your doctrine.