More on the deity of Christ

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David Lamb

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That’s right. But that is not a claim by Jesus that he himself is Yahweh.



There is a functional equality of Jesus with Yahweh. His enemies did recognize that was what he was claiming.

Jesus didn’t make himself God. Yahweh himself made Jesus God to them, and to everyone.
Yet right back at the opening of John's gospel we read:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (Joh 1:1 NKJV)

And v 14 makes clear that by "the Word," John is referring to Jesus Christ:

“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” (Joh 1:14 NKJV)

No suggestion there that Yahweh made Jesus God to them, Jesus Christ is the Word Who has always been God.
 

Matthias

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The Father is YHVH
The Son is YHVH
The Holy Spirit is YHVH

The hebrew word for "one" here actually proves the Trinity. The Hebrew word for one here is "Echad" It means a unity out of plurality. It is the same word used here:

Ge 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one (Echad) flesh.

Dt 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one (Echad) Lord:

God is ONE just as a man and wife are one. Separate beings bound together in unity.

I’ve commented on this many times here over the past three years. The thing that is somewhat unique in your comment is your suggestion that the Triune God isn’t (or may not be) one being but multiple beings.

That’s something for the trinitarians to address. I’m a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian.
 

Matthias

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Yet right back at the opening of John's gospel we read:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (Joh 1:1 NKJV)

We’ve already discussed this. You see two persons (why not three persons?) in John 1:1. A Jewish monotheist sees only one person in John 1:1.

And v 14 makes clear that by "the Word," John is referring to Jesus Christ:

“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.” (Joh 1:14 NKJV)

Yes.
 

shepherdsword

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I’ve commented on this many times here over the past three years. The thing that is somewhat unique in your comment is your suggestion that the Triune God isn’t one being but multiple beings.

That’s something for the trinitarians to address. I’m a Jewish monotheist, not a trinitarian.
Any true "Trinitarian" would agree that:
1)The Father is YHVH
2)The Son is YHVH
3)The Holy Spirit is YHVH

You seem to be confusing Modalism ((aka Sabellianism or Modalistic Monarchianism) with the Trinity
 

Matthias

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Any true "Trinitarian" would agree that:
1)The Father is YHVH
2)The Son is YHVH
3)The Holy Spirit is YHVH

Dr. Witherington is a “true“ trinitarian. There are other “true” trinitarians who agree with him that Jesus wasn’t and isn’t Yahweh. I’ve quoted some of them on the forum.

You seem to be confusing Modalism ((aka Sabellianism or Modalistic Monarchianism) with the Trinity

I’m not. I’m an ex-trinitarian. I’m now, and have been for many years, a Jewish monotheist, a Dynamic Monarchian; not a Modalistic Monarchian. I know the difference between them.
 

shepherdsword

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Dr. Witherington is a “true“ trinitarian. There are other “true” trinitarians who agree with him that Jesus wasn’t and isn’t Yahweh. I’ve quoted some of them on the forum.
LOL....you can't be a true Trinitarian and reject the deity of Christ.
I’m not. I’m an ex-trinitarian. I’m now, and have been for many years, a Jewish monotheist,
You got trapped in deception at some time
a Dynamic Monarchian; not a Modalistic Monarchian. I know the difference between them.
You say you do but your remark on my post suggests otherwise
 

Matthias

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No suggestion there that Yahweh made Jesus God to them ...

I affirm Moses typology.

… Jesus Christ is the Word Who has always been God.

You will find - as I’m sure you must have in the years you’ve been speaking with people about John’s Gospel - some unitarians, binitarians and of course trinitarians who will agree with your comment.

It isn’t compatible with Jewish monotheism.
 

Matthias

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LOL....you can't be a true Trinitarian and reject the deity of Christ.

Dr. Witherington doesn’t reject the deity of Christ.

You got trapped in deception at some time

I’ve spoken about that elsewhere.

You say you do but your remark on my post suggests otherwise

Among other things, I was a professor of theology and taught historical orthodox trinitarianism to college students.
 

Behold

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It isn’t compatible with Jewish monotheism.

And Jewish monotheism, is not compatable with the NT and is especially not compatable with CHRISTianity.

However, if you are an unsaved Jew, then its designed for you.......and if the person is a Christian, and hates the doctrine that is "the Trinity" then they will LOVE monotheism.
 

Behold

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Others have been and are persuaded. Success.


Yes, its possible for you to deceive people., as you are the same.

You read John 1:10, where it says that Jesus ""made the world"", and you cant conceive of it, because that is how mind blindness operates.

This is like the Calvinist, who reads that "For God so loved the WORLD", and they will howl that "that does not mean everyone"......because they too can't SEE truth, as being deceived does not allow Truth to enter them.
 

Matthias

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Yes, its possible for you to deceive people., as you are the same.

You read John 1:10, where it says that Jesus ""made the world"", and you cant conceive of it, because that is how mind blindness operates.

This is like the Calvinist, who reads that "For God so loved the WORLD", and they will howl that "that does not mean everyone"......because they too can't SEE truth, as being deceived does not allow Truth to enter them.

All commentary is opinion. I’ve read yours. As with all commentary, I accept what I’m persuaded is correct and reject what I’m persuaded is incorrect.

I also read something the other day that helped me and I’m sure will help others:

“The blood of the Lamb silences the accuser.” - D.A. Carson
 

Behold

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All commentary is opinion.

False.

only false commentary is opinion.

Real Theology, that has its firm foundation rooted in Paul's Doctrine, is fact.

Jesus said that "you can KNOW the Truth", and you deny this, when you say that "all commentary is opinion".
Understand @Matthias ?

See, you are one of those who believes that all Truth is relative and all theology is "anybody's guess" and that is why you have the opinions you have regarding the Trinity.
Sometimes a person like you, a relativist, ?? becomes a MOD on a Forum, and that is the worst of all, for the forum.. the absolute curse found on a forum, other then a Mod being a CALVINIST.
 
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Matthias

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False.

only false commentary is opinion.

Real Theology, that has its firm foundation rooted in Paul's Doctrine, is fact.

Jesus said that "you can KNOW the Truth", and you deny this, when you say that "all commentary is opinion".
Understand @Matthias ?

See, you are one of those who believes that all Truth is relative and all theology is "anybody's guess" and that is why you have the opinions you have regarding the Bible.
Sometimes a person like you, a relativist, becomes a MOD on a Forum, and that is the worst of all, for the forum.. the absolute curse found on a forum, other then a Mod being a CALVINIST.

Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.

***

A word now to wise readers. What this man brazenly asserted about me isn’t true. I’ve never been, nor will I ever be, a relativist. Anyone who knows me knows that.

Decide for yourselves. I don’t have anything further to say about his comment.

 

OreCove

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Hello. I'm new here. I will be honest; I didn't finish all 12 pages. But I urge you to read my entire message. If you insist on reading all comments before you read mine, I promise to do it. I see everything from a different angle. I don't use scriptures to understand the world. The world and God (Reality) are much bigger. I formally agree with Matthias. I believe in the monotheistic Jewish God but understand Him a slightly differently. Jesus (I don't think it would be polite to call Yeshua by the name Jesus when you talk to him directly) is God's son, the first of many. The idea of being chosen is to pick someone you think is suitable. It is not like in a corporation where the old CEO wants to pick his right-hand man among the board of directors, where his son is also present, and picks his own son. If there are two sons, we can say the CEO made a choice. Jesus can't be chosen as Messiah from the beginning of creation or earlier.
When I started my journey in faith, I accidentally found a tiny Bible from the "Gideon Brothers." I didn't know much about God and Jesus. After reading two gospels, I formed the opinion that Jesus is a human who understands God and can hear Him. It was sad to me that people didn't get what Jesus taught, even his close disciples. My thoughts were: "Would I understand Jesus and God in their position at that time?" Obviously, hearing the sound of words and reading them is not enough. A few years later, I tried to pray to Jesus. Even though I truly respect him, I couldn't experience the same sensations as from my prayer to God, the Father. God is the source of everything; why do I need someone to be my mediator if I am another son? To reach that height, I need someone experienced in that path. Of course, Jesus is the only way to learn. This is my way of thinking. When you set your mind that other people, priests, and the Bible will teach you to understand God, you are limited by opinions and interpretations, even if they were inspired by God. Imagine a drought in the region. One person found water far away in the mountains. He brought some in his hands as proof. Will you ask for the path to its source or just drink from his hands? If I were Jesus, I would teach about how to hear God and be His children, free from sin. Plus, I would have to convince others that I am “the right guy”. I can understand the logic of Greek philosophers. How can gods have a son? They were well informed about this. Gods come down and have sex with a woman. Wait, God doesn't have a body. Okay, He did that spiritually. Then how should we be reborn? We are already here. As Moses was leading to Canaan, Jesus was showing the way to God’sKingdom. He walked that way and heard the guidance. We need to just follow his steps. Why, from the duration of Jesus' three years of preaching, do we know only miracles, the Sermon on the Mount, and occasional quotes? Oh well, nobody understood him. How can we be sure about collected rumors and interpretations in scriptures? The Holy Spirit! But the Spirit is in the shadows. Christianity is afraid to lean on it too much. We know well what can happen to believers when they are too "spiritual." What if Jesus was reborn as anyone can be? Let's think. He was baptized, received God's Spirit, and went to the desert. Why did he decide to do that? If he were God, he would know and understand the Father instantly without the Holy Spirit, prayer, and fasting. How would a "silver spoon boy" understand our struggles? Everyone else has only dirt. Only God, through His Spirit, can clean it out. But everything related to the Holy Spirit is vague for Christians. The Holy Spirit is guidance. It is the source for God's children of who I am, what I want, what is right, and so on—an alternative to what we have from our birth. Jesus had the same. Do you remember the lamb reference? What I understand is that we must be like that lamb before God. A pure heart means no ties to opinions, ideologies, idols, leaders, etc. Never come to God to prove your idea. Our character depends on what spirit we have or what guides us. Jesus said that his yoke is meek; it means God's Spirit is gentle and meek. You can't hear His voice if you are arrogant. You can become capable of hearing if you are willing to reject yourself. If you despair of being a slave to sin, then God will come to you. But how many times have you had a desire to dedicate your whole heart to God but heard the background voice saying you didn't finish the TV show, the last season is so great, or you want to find a partner, or "no more parties?" and so on? It is hard. You associate yourself with your feelings and desires, induced by instinctive nature—"nefesh." Rejecting it is painful. But it is what the Temple of God requires to sacrifice. Become a lamb, receive the Holy Spirit, and allow the lamb to disappear—be replaced by the Holy Spirit. You can't serve two masters—be guided by two sources of life. What people usually do is clean up their soul by repentance and continue to live on their own, with original guidance, and fall back. Why? When people receive God's Spirit—God visits them—their "lamb" feels so much joy. Those feelings overwhelm God's presence. What do they want after that? More feelings! They replace God with what they feel. You must step over those feelings and desire to meet God directly. Ask yourself, what is more precious to me? God Himself or these pleasurable feelings? The obvious choice is "obvious." Instead of being reborn, people become goats and run away from the altar. This is how false teachers and prophets appear. God doesn't come to lift you but to accept your full sacrifice. Then you will have God's Spirit guidance day and night.
 

OreCove

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I'm expecting discussion. Sorry, I had to write a lot in my first comment. You don't know my background. Technically I'm trying to say that through my experience I have never deep ties to Jesus as I have with God. And I can't pray to the Holy Spirit, It’s part of me, and becoming me. So I don't believe in trinity.
 
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Matthias

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I'm expecting discussion.

Are you expecting discussion with the trinitarians?

Sorry, I had to write a lot in my first comment. You don't know my background. Technically I'm trying to say that through my experience I have never deep ties to Jesus as I have with God. And I can't pray to the Holy Spirit, It’s part of me, and becoming me. So I don't believe in trinity.

Would you like to believe in the Trinity? Are you open to the possibility of becoming persuaded?
 

OreCove

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I'm open to talking with anyone.
If people will share their experiences I will listen.
My conversations with Christians often sound something like this:
Me: I just talked to the Designer, and I assembled a nice square table.
Christians: That can’t be true. The instructions say it’s round.
Me: I tried following the instructions, but something’s off. They say the table must be round in the end, but it’s impossible to assemble a round table from all the straight and square parts I got from the Designer.
Christians: Our professional assemblers know the instructions from A to Z and have explained that the table must be round.
Me: Have they ever tried to assemble it?
Christians: No, they said we’re missing some parts.
Me: Did you talk to the Designer? He explained to me that He never wrote the instructions Himself. Someone might have made mistakes while dictating to scribes. Plus, it’s a copy of a copy of a copy.
Christians: We’re constantly sending Him messages, asking for the right parts and for Him to send His Son—the well-known, talented assembler. But we’re sure the instructions are accurate. We think you have the wrong parts, probably from a different designer, His competitor.
Me: I know His Son is really talented. I actually copied His table, you know, since our Designer doesn’t talk more than necessary. It was easier for me to see the final product and replicate it. As for a wrong designer—there’s only one Designer.
Christians: We don’t believe you. You’re just a clueless assembler who can’t bend the parts to make a round shape.