I’m confused, You completely disagree with my view that revelation 19 is pointing to Christ dashing to pieces those who did not serve the lord nor accept correction?
Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so a 1000 yr reign on this earth is false
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I’m confused, You completely disagree with my view that revelation 19 is pointing to Christ dashing to pieces those who did not serve the lord nor accept correction?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Well, I was not aware of that. You respond as if I somehow should have been aware of that? How? I've never seen you indicate before that you don't believe the supposed future millennium . Also, I never said you were a SDA. It's mostly SDAs who believe that, but CTK believes that, also, and he said he is not a SDA.
It's interesting that you're so Pro-Premill and Anti-Amill even though you actually believe in a version of Premill that is different from most other Premills and that has a number of things in common with Amills (all unbelievers being killed at His return, for example).
As if you try to follow what I say? I know that you do not because of your frequent misrepresentations of what I believe. But, yeah, I should try and follow what you say when you clearly make minimal effort to try and follow what I say? Anyway, I will try to follow what you're saying and we'll see what happens.
Obviously.
There is something mentioned that occurs at the return of Christ, which is fire coming down on all of His enemies (2 Peter 3:10-12). I don't know why we need to have it spelled out to us that Revelation 20:9 occurs when Christ returns. It's not as if fire will come down on all of God's enemies twice in the future.
It seems that you're saying here that you believe that 1 Corinthians 15:54 and Revelation 21:4 are fulfilled at the same time (at least generally speaking). If so, I agree. Both verses reference Isaiah 25:8. don't you believe that 1 Corinthians 15:54 is fulfilled at the return of Christ, whic hwould mena ou agree with me that the new heavens and new earth (which Rev 21:4 is related to) are ushered in at the return of Christ?
I don't care what mainstream Christian churches say, as many of them are wrong about a lot of things, but in this case they are correct. The word immortal means just that, that you can't die.
immortal (adjective): living forever; never dying or decaying.
Yes, right now, He alone is immortal, but when He returns at the last trumpet, we too will be changed and made to be immortal (1 Corinthians 15:50-54) as that is the only way to inherit the eternal kingdom of God in the eternal new heavens and new earth.
Don't waste your time talking to me about man-made theology. I don't care about it. I study scripture for myself like the Bereans did (Acts 17:10-11). If I happen to agree with a theology that you think is man-made, so be it. But, I don't get my theology from man, I get it from scripture while guided by the Holy Spirit.
You lost me here. I'm really trying to follow this, but I'm not seeing here what you think is happening during the thousand years or what the purpose of the thousand years is in your view. Can you explain that?
Who exactly do you believe it is that Satan deceives after the thousand years are over and where do they come from? None of that is clear to me from what you posted above.
Didn't you already say this? Checking...yes, you did. As well as everything that follows this.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Of course you are. It's no surprise. I'm Spiritual Jew on Christian Forums. We have had many discussions before and it's not uncommon for both of us to be confused by the other's beliefs since we think very differently.
No, I disagree with your view that it's not referring to the future second coming of Jesus Christ when He will take vengeance on all of His enemies in the world.
The Septuagint - which is what the NT quotes from.
From the LXX:
9Thou shalt shepherd them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces as a potter’s vessel. 10 Now therefore understand, ye kings: be instructed, all ye that judge the earth. 11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice in him with trembling. 12 Accept correction, lest at any time the Lord be angry, and ye should perish from the righteous way
The explanation for vs 9 is found in vs 10-12. Notice it says “therefore understand…”
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
You must have a pretty low opinion of our English translations and/or the manuscripts they are based on. It seems like every time I discuss something with you, we end up disagreeing partly because we're reading very different text. Such as when we've discussed the meaning of Daniel 7:13-14. It's unfortunate that is the case.
You say the explanation for verse 9 is found in verses 10-12. Okay, let's see what that says in the KJV.
10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. 11 Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
To me, what this is saying about verse 9 is that unless someone submits to Christ and serves Him, they will be broken/shepherded/whatever with a rod of iron which is comparable to a potter's vessel being broken to pieces. I don't believe it's talking about anyone being corrected there because that is something that God does to His people. But, verse 9 is talking about the the heathen who are not God's people. God doesn't correct the heathen, He punishes them unless they repent. Scripture says God corrects or disciplines those who He loves, who are His people (Proverbs 3:12, Revelation 3:19), so there's no way that Psalm 2:12 is talking about God correcting the heathen.
Notice in the LXX version of verse 12 that it's referring to those who are in "the righteous way" being warned to not perish from it. The heathen, who are the ones being referenced in verse 9, are not in "the righteous way", so they can't perish from something they are not even part of to begin with. So, that verse, as written in the LXX, cannot be talking about the heathen from verse 9 accepting correction.
Revelation 19 makes it quite clear that no matter what word you use to describe Jesus using the rod of iron, it's used for destruction, not correction. Revelation 19:15 references Psalm 2:9 along side descriptions of Jesus smiting (destroying) the nations (should say heathen) and treading them in the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God and then a couple verses later describes those nations (heathen) as becoming bird food. To think that Revelation 19 has anything to do with Jesus correcting anyone instead of destroying them can't possibly be reading the text very closely.
If you read it a little bit slower you might see what it is actually saying
Paul confirms:
1 Corinthians 15:25-26: “For he must reign (present, active infinitive), till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.”
Here he shows that Christ is reigning now. It is written in the present, active infinitive sense. How long does he reign? He confirms: “till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” Again, this couldn’t be clearer! Every last enemy will be subjugated and subdued at the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. The last enemy is identified as death!
There you have it! The second coming sees the final subjugation of all:
· rule
· authority
· power
· death
Paul then reinforces this thought:
1 Corinthians 15:27-28 “For ‘he hath put’ (aorist active indicative) (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to) all things under him. And when all things shall be (hupotasso) subdued (or subordinated or submitted to) unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (hupotasso or subordinated or submitted to), that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”
Paul, again, repeats the great truth that God “hath put all things under his feet” as He reigns in majestic glory upon high. The reign described here is aorist active indicative, meaning it is ongoing. He also shows, whilst Christ is reigning over His enemies as Lord and God, they will NOT be made His footstool, subdued and put down until the second coming.
The whole focus here is the current reign of Christ upon the heavenly throne that will culminate in the final downfall of all his enemies when he appears. Then we'll his enemies finally be subdued, put down, and made his footstool.
Hebrews 1:2, 3, 2:9 says, “Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things … Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high … Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.”
There it is! He is the supreme power. He is the government. He carries all authority. Whilst new enemies are being born every day, while new wicked regimes continually arise, Christ determines what He allows and what He doesn't. There is nothing that is not under Him. The world is NOT out of control. God has a plan and that plan will be fulfilled, when God sees fit.
1 Peter 3:22 says, that Christ, “who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God (now!!!); angels and authorities and powers being (currently!!!) made subject unto him.”
Without a doubt Christ is reigning over His enemies since the resurrection, waiting for their final predetermined put down. Those who question Christ’s current reign do great assault upon the truth of God’s Word and undermine the current sovereign kingly position that He now assuredly holds. They also circumvent clear New Testament writings that teach Christ is reigning now.
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Premils do not agree with me when I say that the NHNE - the time Christ makes all things new - commences at the sounding of the seventh trumpet when
a. The kingdoms of this world become His kingdoms, and He commences reigning over the nations in the NHNE to the ages of the ages, and
b. The first thousand years of the ages of the ages ends as the scriptures say it ends.
GOOD. GOOD, GOOD, GOOD! Then you will want to (and be OK about) THINKING about this main-stream Christian church doctrine which is a lie that you have already expressed belief in yourself:
This is where IMO your mind has also been programmed (along with almost everyone who is saved) by the main-stream Christian theology you learned when you first became saved
- to believe a lie about the immortality of CREATED human beings.
The only way created human beings could ever possess IN OURSELVES the immortality that we will one day have, is if we also possess eternal life IN OURSELVES.
We do not possess eternal life in ourselves. Eternal life is GIVEN to us by God (He breathed life eternal [zoe] into Adam),
and our eternal life is IN CHRIST through "Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory", who alone has eternal life in Himself, and who alone therefore possesses His own immortality IN HIMSELF.
The idea that created human beings who have risen from Adam's death (and therefore have immortality) will possess that immortality in themselves is to believe the same lie that Adam believed, which caused his death in the first place - because it caused him to disobey the one commandment that ended with the words ".. dying you will die".
"You will not surely die" is the first lie, and remains a lie.
"SPIRITUAL DEATH" (more false main-stream church doctrine)
God breathed eternal life [zoe] into Adam and Adam became a living [zao] soul [psyche].
Yet Adam died.
The hypothesis of so-called "spiritual death" is based on a misunderstanding of what is actually simply the ABSENCE of eternal life [zoe], and eternal life [zoe] is that which in Colossians 1:26-27 Paul calls:
"The mystery which has been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints", which is "Christ in you, the hope of glory."
THE HUMAN SPIRIT
When Jesus raised a young girl from the dead, we are told that:
"Her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat." (Luke 8:55). *
* There is no "dead" human spirit mentioned in the above account of what took place, and Jesus had not yet died and risen again from the dead when the above took place.
Solomon wrote,
"Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. Vanity of vanities, saith the preacher; all is vanity." (Ecclesiastes 12:7-8).
When we were born into the world (born of the flesh) CREATED human beings do indeed have a spirit (and therefore life) without the Spirit of Christ in them BUT THAT LIFE IS TEMPORARY, not eternal.
The human spirit is mentioned numerous times in scripture, but it's NEVER spoken about as being "dead", nor is it EVER spoken of as being "quickened" or "raised from death".
Life eternal, which is IN CHRIST, is GIVEN to us (and it is IN CHRIST who ALONE has eternal life IN HIMSELF), and our dead bodies are quickened and raised with His quickening and His resurrection - the quickening and resurrection of the last Adam, who IS the resurrection of the body and the eternal life.
"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God." (1 Corinthians 2:11).
It follows that if someone does not have the Spirit of Christ in him, he does not have ETERNAL life; and without being born of the Spirit of God, created human beings simply have no eternal life [zoe] in them.
"And may the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your whole spirit [pneuma] and soul [psyche] and body [soma] be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Thessalonians 5:23).
Christ in us, our hope of glory, is referring to the fact that (one day) we will have eternal life IN CHRIST in our own resurrected and spiritual human body,
but again, only God has (eternal) life [zoe] in Himself. CREATED human beings do not and never will POSSESS IN OURSELVES life that is eternal. it is GIVEN to us IN HIS SON (1 John 5:11):
IN HIM (the Word of God) was (eternal) life [zōḗ],
and the life [zōḗ] is the light of men. (John 1:4).
"The mystery which has been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints", which is "Christ in you, the hope of glory."
"I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."
(John 14:19b-20b).
(Copy @WPM in response to your post #87)
"Christ in you, the hope of glory" is (eternal) life [zoe] in you = the Kingdom of God in you = the Kingdom of God in the world,
which is not now of this present time OF this world, but when the seventh trumpet sounds and the kingdoms of this (new) world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, then His Kingdom will be OF this (new) world; and He will reign to the ages of the ages.
This is also why Hebrews 2:8 tells us that though all things have already been placed under Christ's feet, yet now of this present time we do not YET see it, but what we do NOW see "is Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man".
SAINTS WHO HAVE BEEN RAISED FROM THE DEAD AT THE TIME OF THE RETURN OF CHRIST
There are billions of saints who have died in Christ over the last 2,000 years. Not all of them were martyred, imprisoned, beaten etc etc for their faith before they died. Millions have died in Western nations over the last few centuries without it happening to them.
Only those who faced such things and overcame and those who were martyred are promised that the second death will have no authority or power over them. They are also promised that they will reign with Christ a thousand years. For a thousand years they will reign with Christ over the rest of us, under Christ's rule and authority.
Created human beings will NEVER (never, ever) POSSESS our own immortality IN OURSELVES because we do not, and never will possess eternal life in ourselves (ask Adam).
The Gog-Magog nations are talking about resurrected people who had died in Christ who are immortal, who are BEING RULED OVER BY OTHER SAINTS UNDER CHRIST'S AUTHORITY, and when Satan is one more time released to deceive the nations, many of them end up believing the same lie about death:
"You will not surely die"
- because they will believe the lie that tells the saints that we will possess our own immortality in ourselves.
Only Christ possesses His own immortality in Himself (because He is God) because only Christ possesses eternal life in Himself (because He is God).
"If a man abide not in me (Jesus), he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned." (John 15:6).
The belief you express about immortality is main-stream Christian doctrine.
Revelation 19 says that His enemies will be slain by the Word that proceeds out of His mouth. Peter understood these things even though the Revelation had not yet been given, and fire coming down upon God's enemies is used over and over and over again in biblical scripture as a metaphor for the wrath of God coming upon a nation, or upon nations, in judgment.
Character limit - will answer your other pertinent (and extremely important) question in my next post.
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Zao is life
Well-Known Member
Answered in the above post.
EXTREMELY IMPORTANT QUESTION IMO:
Most of the churches are lost regarding this, imo. I can only ask you to ask God for discernment regarding why the first 1,000 years of the ages of the ages will be a restoration of the conditions in Eden, and a repetition of the events that caused death - the first death -to come upon mankind in the first place.
@Spiritual Israelite That's the first extremely important question.
The other two extremely important questions are:
2. Why would CREATED human beings who have immortality rebel? (Ask Adam).
3. Why would CREATED human beings who have immortality believe that their immortality is something they possess in themselves (again, ask Adam, and consider the very first lie),
Note: There will be no second sacrifice for sins and no second resurrection from the second death, and only specific groups of saints are promised in scripture that the second death will have no authority over them. Who are they? It will be good to know - because the same specific groups have been promised that they will also reign with Christ for a thousand years. Who will they be reigning over, since indeed there will be no mortals to reign over?
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Not true. Ephesians 2:1-6 also says, “you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, ‘hath quickened us together’ [Gr. suzoopoieo] with Christ, (by grace ye are saved) And hath ‘raised us up together’ [Gr. sunegeiro] and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.”
The same two Greek words found in Colossians 2:10-14 are also used in this reading to describe the spiritual resurrection. Again, the word rendered “quickened” here in Ephesians 2 is the Greek word suzoopoieo, which indicates a uniting to Christ in mystical union by means of being spiritually revitalized and made alive. The Greek word sunegeiro carries the meaning of union with Christ through resurrection. It is also in the aorist active demonstrating that it relates to the present. All sane theologians know that is not therefore not talking about physical resurrection.
Romans 4:17 says, speaking of that great father of the faith Abraham, “(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth [Gr. zoopoieo] the dead, and calleth those things which be not (unbelieving Gentiles) as though they were (the people of God).”
Again, the word rendered “quickened” in the above passage is translated from the original word zoopoieo meaning to make alive, give life and revitalize. It is the same word used in Ephesians 2:5 and Colossians 3:1, only it is prefixed there by the Greek word sun in those passages. This passage is describing how God breathed spiritual life into the once darkened Gentile nations, and brought them into a personal relationship with the living God. Those within the nations that received God’s provision for sin and uncleanness were then immediately brought from a condition of spiritual death unto a state of spiritual life through the precious work of Christ at Calvary. This quickening of the Gentiles is therefore plainly not just a future hope but a joyous present reality.
In the new birth, the nature of Christ is imputed into the believer thus raising him up from a spiritual grave into a real living communion with God. I John 3:14 succinctly explains, “We know that we have passed from death unto life.” How? This text makes it clear that the death that is conquered here in the-here-and-now is assuredly not physical but spiritual death. The sinner that believes (and is thus born again of the Spirit of God) has entered into the realisation of the first resurrection in this life and will one day be physically raised at the second resurrection unto life.
The NT quotes from the LXX version of psalm 2, are you unaware of this?
Where did I state revelation 19 was about Jesus correcting the nations?
I already stated previously that I think the main point of revelation 19 was Jesus dashing to pieces those that would not serve the Lord or accept correction.
I think revelation 19:19 alludes to psalm 2:1-2 (which acts 4 declared was about the crucifixion) using the apocalyptic motif, but ultimately revelation 19 is about Christ dashing to pieces those that wouldn’t serve the lord or accept correction
You don't seem to have any dea how eternal life works or how long it lasts.
You misrepresent the sacred words of Jesus in John 10:28: "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."
Eternal is forever. Hello!
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Wrangler
Well-Known Member
If I may ...
Jesus was given all authority of heaven and Earth. If it was merely authority in heaven, then the claim of the kingdom not being of this world EVER might have merit. So, the verse strongly implies what you are looking explicitly for.
The difference between our lord and Earthly or worldly kings is how their dominion is established. Worldly kings establish their power base from the outside to the inside; they militarily conquer so as to make material opposition untenable. Then we submit. Christ reverses the script; he conquers from the inside out. First we submit, then we show the world.
Some incorrectly say there are 4 Gospels. This is incorrect. There is only one Gospel, the good news of Jesus Christ. And there are billions of witnesses and testimonies over the centuries, including in the Bible and including you and me. We are in this world and there is no reason to get lost in prepositions "in" compared to "of." All glory to God.
Ok
Great we are in agreement that revelation 19 is about Jesus’ authority over the nations and Him dashing them to pieces for not serving the Lord or accepting the nations.
Are we in agreement that Jesus already has authority over the nations, to shepherd/rule with an iron rod and dash to pieces?
Revelation 2:26-27 The one who conquers and who keeps my works until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations, 27and he will rulec them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I myself have received authority from my Father.
I agree, it’s not surprising when you make up something I didn’t even say nor argue then disagree with it. Where did I argue that revelation 19 is not about the 2nd advent? Additionally, for argument sake, if I didn’t believe revelation 19 is about the 2nd advent, what does that have to do with psalm 2:1-2, 7, 9 being about the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ (acts 4, acts 13, revelation 2:26-27)?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
I don't think even SDAs would say that, though they agree with you that the earth is desolate during the thousand years.
Where do you get the phrase "the ages of the ages" from?
LOL!!! You are hilarious. You know, the main-stream Christian church teaches that Jesus died and rose again from the dead. Perhaps we should rethink that, too? LOL! Keep the laughs coming.
Okay, I'm not even going to read any further because I don't need this nonsense. My view is based on my own studies and that has ALWAYS been the case. I don't just blindly believe what is taught in "main-stream Christian theology". Thanks for proving yet again why it's a waste of time talking to you.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
He has that authority just as He has all authority in heaven and in earth (Matt 28:18), but you may have noticed that He hasn't destroyed all of His enemies yet. He will do that when He returns. I will never be in agreement with your false preterist beliefs.
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
By saying that Psalm 2:9, which Revelation 19:15 references, is not about the second advent but is about His resurrection and ascension instead.
Hello? Wake up. Revelation 19:15 references Psalm 2:9, so if you think that verse is about the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ, then that implies that you think Revelation 19 is about that as well. So, you agree with me that Revelation 19 is about the future second coming of Jesus Christ?
Spiritual Israelite
Well-Known Member
Zao is life
Well-Known Member
What you say is what is not true.
When Jesus died, His Spirit did not die: His soul went into hades (Acts 2:27), where by the Spirit he preached to the spirits in prison (1 Peter 3:18-20),
and His dead body, being quickened [zoopoieo] (made alive by the Spirit), was raised from the dead. So take note of the Greek words [syzoopoieo] and [synegeiro] in the following verses, so we can check to see which other New Testament verses use the same words:
Colossians 2:12-13
"Ye are buried with him in baptism, wherein also all of you are risen with him [synegeiro] through the faith of the operation of God, who has raised him [egeiro] from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him [syzoopoieo], having forgiven you all trespasses."
It's talking about the positional reality in Christ of those who belong to Him.
The words [syzoopoieo] and [synegeiro] used in Colossians 2:12-13 (quoted above) are the same words used in Ephesians 2:4-6:
"God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, He has syzōopoiéō (quickened together with) Christ, (by grace ye are saved) and has raised us up together [synegeírō] and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ephesians 2:4-6).
You can compare that easily with 1 Corinthians 15:20-22 & Romans 8:10-11
(Quickened & Resurrected):
"Christ is risen [egeiro] from the dead, and become the first-fruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection [anastasis] of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be quickened [zoopoieo: made alive]." -- 1 Corinthians 15:20-22
"If Christ's Spirit is in you,
1. your body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit (of Christ) is your (eternal) life [zoe] because of (Christ's) righteousness.
2. Moreover, if the Spirit of the one who raised [egeiro] Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised [egeiro] Christ from the dead will also quicken [zōopoiéō] your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you." -- Romans 8:10-11.
You fantasies regarding the quickening of the spirit only shows your ignorance of (through lack of study of) scripture.
And because you will only double down on saying things that are patently false, I won't read the anything more of what you have already posted (copied and pasted from your storehouse of saved previous posts). It's pointless reading your copied and pasted posts from your storehouse of saved responses.
You need to go back to scripture and study scripture itself to make anything you say meaningful.
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