Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

[Wick Stick]

St. SteVen said:
It was in reference to the BOOKS of the Law and/or the BOOKS of the Prophets. Not the laws themselves. IMHO

Most readers use Matthew 5:17 to claim that Jesus didn't come to abolish/destroy the law. (small l)
They stop short of the full statement and its significance. It doesn't say "the law." (full stop)
It says the Law or the Prophets. (capital L and P) Meaning the books,
or more importantly the prophecies about Christ in those books.

How do you abolish/destroy a prophet anyway?

I think I explained previously, but I was probably obtuse, delving into concordances and Greek and whatnot.

It's about binding and loosing. You abolish a law by loosing the people from their obligation to perform it. You can also loose the people from the commands of the prophets, because the prophets speak with authority. So...

Were the people bound by The Law? Were they bound to do what The Prophets said? Yes they were. And Jesus began his sermon about the law by saying, "I didn't come to un-bind you. I'm adding more."

 

[St. SteVen]

Isn't it in the passage referenced above? Jesus and His disciples were on a leisurely stroll through a field on the Sabbath. They didn't show up in their workboots with scythes and bailing wire.

Jesus and the disciples were a band of homeless wanderers. It wasn't their field.
They were hungry and searching for food wherever they could find it. I suppose you would have to be awfully hungry to think raw wheat was the best you could find to fill an empty belly.

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[GodsGrace]

I think I explained previously, but I was probably obtuse, delving into concordances and Greek and whatnot.

It's about binding and loosing. You abolish a law by loosing the people from their obligation to perform it. You can also loose the people from the commands of the prophets, because the prophets speak with authority. So...

Were the people bound by The Law? Were they bound to do what The Prophets said? Yes they were. And Jesus began his sermon about the law by saying, "I didn't come to un-bind you. I'm adding more."

The above is true.
Jesus said our righteousness had to surpass that of the Pharisees.
How?
They worshipped in outward appearance.
Jesus said our very heart must be changed.
We had to change from the inside out.
Happy to provide verses if necessary, but I don't think they will be.
Adultery was sinful.
Now lusting was sinful.
This ADDED, as you stated.

As to the Law....
let's just add that there were 3 types of Law in the OT:
CIVIL
CEREMONIAL
MORAL

The civil and ceremonial laws became obsolete for obvious reasons.
The moral law (the 10 commandments) will never be abolished.

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus had the authority to change whatever He wanted to...
HE WROTE THE LAW....I mean the 10 commandments.

The Ten Commandments are a subset of the 613 laws in the law that God gave to the Israelites through Moses.

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[GodsGrace]

The Ten Commandments are a subset of the 613 laws in the law that God gave to the Israelites through Moses.

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You mean my math is wrong?
OK
603 laws were abolished.
10 remain.

 

[St. SteVen]

You mean my math is wrong?
OK
603 laws were abolished.
10 remain.

What then is the whole law referred to here?

Galatians 5:3 NIV
Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

James 2:10 NIV
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

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[Stumpmaster]

Discussion questions;
1) Is the basis for your salvation a personal decision to follow God, or to follow the church?
2) If your salvation is in "the Faith", who prescribed what that means?

Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?​

Why do you think they call themselves Reverend Doctor and some such?

 

[St. SteVen]

Why do you think they call themselves Reverend Doctor and some such?

I suppose they have a degree from the Bible Semitary? (and student loans to pay)
They take a job with a demon-nation and sign a statement of beliefs that they are forced to abide by.

After a few years they have to ask themselves, "What have I done?"

That would be the cynical response. - LOL

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[Beebster]

Hello Johann. Thank you for the kind words.

Sorry for the late reply, I was not ignoring you, just very busy.

One question: Do you lean toward Reformed Theology?

Well, GG thinks I’m a full blown Calvinist:

You're reformed.
Another calvinist that cannot answer what justice means.

And you seem to think I lean that way?

In truth though, I believe the Word of God and do not rely on what the churches teach.

Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.

But they set their abominations in the house, WHICH IS CALLED BY MY NAME, to defile it. (Jeremiah 32:32-34)

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments OF MEN. (Mat 15:8-9)

Peace.

 

[Wick Stick]

The Ten Commandments are a subset of the 613 laws in the law that God gave to the Israelites through Moses.

I mean... they're definitely special among that group. They were given directly by the hand of God, and they were the terms of the covenant that Moses mediated at Mount Sinai. That doesn't necessarily mean that they continue when the others don't, but this might...

After the flood, God gave Noah some rules for all mankind (Gen 9), which are sometimes referred to as the Noahide covenant. They overlap significantly with the 10 commandments of Moses covenant. I don't precisely remember all the commandments that overlap, but it's more than half.

Moreover, when the church met in Acts 15 to decide whether Gentiles needed to follow Jewish Law, their judgment was that Gentiles only needed to follow those Laws. It isn't obvious from reading the chapter, until you compare Gen 9 to Acts 15.

 

[St. SteVen]

After the flood, God gave Noah some rules for all mankind (Gen 9), which are sometimes referred to as the Noahide covenant. They overlap significantly with the 10 commandments of Moses covenant. I don't precisely remember all the commandments that overlap, but it's more than half.

That is worth exploring.
Where is the scripture for that? (perhaps I could find it) ???
Might deserve its own topic.

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[Lambano]

After the flood, God gave Noah some rules for all mankind (Gen 9), which are sometimes referred to as the Noahide covenant. They overlap significantly with the 10 commandments of Moses covenant. I don't precisely remember all the commandments that overlap, but it's more than half.

Moreover, when the church met in Acts 15 to decide whether Gentiles needed to follow Jewish Law, their judgment was that Gentiles only needed to follow those Laws. It isn't obvious from reading the chapter, until you compare Gen 9 to Acts 15.

That is worth exploring.

Where is the scripture for that? (perhaps I could find it) ???
Might deserve its own topic.

Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach

It's apparently from the Talmud, some extensive Jewish commentary on the Bible.

1. Do not worship idols.
2. Do not curse God.
3. Do not murder.
4. Do not commit adultery or sexual immorality.
5. Do not steal.
6. Do not eat flesh torn from a living animal.
7. Establish courts of justice.

Compare to Acts 15:19-20:

19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

 

[Beebster]

Well, unfortunately for them God is not a democracy

So true.
But I'll tell you this:
If EVERY other denominations believed the opposite of what MY denomination teaches....
I'd stop and wonder why.

We don’t need to wonder why, just listen to the Word of God.

My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace. (Jer 50:6)

But evil men and SEDUCERS shall wax WORSE and WORSE, deceiving, and being deceived. (2 Timothy 3:13)

And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: (2 Thessalonians 2:11)

Leaving my brain at the door is not my way of learning Christianity.
I'd go where the road leads me.

I go where the spirit leads me.

Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy spirit is good; lead me into the land of uprightness. (Psa143:10)

 

[St. SteVen]

It's apparently from the Talmud, some extensive Jewish commentary on the Bible.

1. Do not worship idols.
2. Do not curse God.
3. Do not murder.
4. Do not commit adultery or sexual immorality.
5. Do not steal.
6. Do not eat flesh torn from a living animal.
7. Establish courts of justice.

Compare to Acts 15:19-20:

19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

I am disappointed with their response.
They concluded that the gentiles were to NOT be under the law, but then they do this! ???? Say what?

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[Lambano]

I am disappointed with their response.
They concluded that the gentiles were to NOT be under the law, but then they do this! ???? Say what?

There's a reason why the Jewish people consider Torah to be God's greatest gift to mankind.

Gotta have rules so then you know what you're deviating from.

That's the Protestant position based on Romans 7:7.

 

[St. SteVen]

The Protestant position (based on Romans 7:7) is, "Gotta have rules so then you know what you're deviating from."

LOL
That made me laugh, but seriously...

Romans 7:7 NIV
What shall we say, then? Is the law sinful? Certainly not! Nevertheless,
I would not have known what sin was had it not been for the law.
For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law
had not said, “You shall not covet.”[a]

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[Stumpmaster]

I suppose they have a degree from the Bible Semitary? (and student loans to pay)
They take a job with a demon-nation and sign a statement of beliefs that they are forced to abide by.

After a few years they have to ask themselves, "What have I done?"

That would be the cynical response. - LOL

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[Wick Stick]

Sheva Mitzvot B'nei Noach

It's apparently from the Talmud, some extensive Jewish commentary on the Bible.

1. Do not worship idols.
2. Do not curse God.
3. Do not murder.
4. Do not commit adultery or sexual immorality.
5. Do not steal.
6. Do not eat flesh torn from a living animal.
7. Establish courts of justice.

Compare to Acts 15:19-20:

19 Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.

Pretty much this. I will say I don't see several of these points in Genesis 9.

 

[GodsGrace]

What then is the whole law referred to here?

Galatians 5:3 NIV
Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

James 2:10 NIV
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

[

The 613 laws of the OT.
603 of which are obsolete.

 

[Lambano]

Pretty much this. I will say I don't see several of these points in Genesis 9.

The Rabbis basically took into account the entire body of Torah, not just Genesis 9.

Scanning some of the online information about the Noahic laws, a few things stood out:

• The "don't eat flesh torn from a living animal" made me internally go "WTF? Who does that anyway?", but by extension, it's considered specific case representing a general prohibition against cruelty. There's a literary term for that which escapes me for a moment. Ah. "Synecdoche".
• The general context for these laws for the Talmud's Jewish audience is, "Who is the 'stranger among you' that Torah requires we protect (which brings to mind a question someone once asked another Rabbi, 'Who is my neighbor?'), and what are their obligations when living amongst us?"
• The Jewish sages wrote that Goyim who live according to these laws will be considered righteous and "have a share in the World to Come". A Jewish answer to the question, "What of those who are not one us; how can they be saved?" Compare with the Evangelical Christian answer to that question, which would be, "Sorry, Charlie. Burn, baby, burn!" Do our Jewish cousins believe in a more merciful God than we do?

(Bullet three corrected at @GodsGrace's suggestion.)