Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

[GodsGrace]

The Rabbis basically took into account the entire body of Torah, not just Genesis 9.

Scanning some of the online information about the Noahic laws, a few things stood out:

• The "don't eat flesh torn from a living animal" made me internally go "WTF? Who does that anyway?", but by extension, it's considered specific case representing a general prohibition against cruelty. There's a literary term for that which escapes me for a moment. Ah. "Synecdoche".
• The general context for these laws for the Talmud's Jewish audience is, "Who is the 'stranger among you' that Torah requires we protect (which brings to mind a question someone once asked another Rabbi, 'Who is my neighbor?'), and what are their obligations when living amongst us?"
• The Jewish sages wrote that Goyim who live according to these laws will be considered righteous and "have a share in the World to Come". A Jewish answer to the question, "What of those who are not one us; how can they be saved?" Compare with the mainline Christian answer to that question, which would be, "Sorry, Charlie. Burn, baby, burn!" Do our Jewish cousins believe in a more merciful God than we do?

I wouldn't say your number 3 above can be considered mainline.
I have no statistics, but I find that only holiness churches or fundamental churches believe all non-Christians will go to the other place.

Maybe it's right to state MAINLINE.....I don't know.
Do you have any statistics?

 

[Lambano]

I wouldn't say your number 3 above can be considered mainline.
I have no statistics, but I find that only holiness churches or fundamental churches believe all non-Christians will go to the other place.

Maybe it's right to state MAINLINE.....I don't know.
Do you have any statistics?

You're right; "mainline" may not be correct, and least not in this day and time. I will change it to "Evangelical" for now.

 

[GodsGrace]

You're right; "mainline" may not be correct, and least not in this day and time. I will change it to "fundamentalist" for now.

Let me know if you get the info....
Thanks.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hello Johann. Thank you for the kind words.

Sorry for the late reply, I was not ignoring you, just very busy.

Well, GG thinks I’m a full blown Calvinist:



And you seem to think I lean that way?

In truth though, I believe the Word of God and do not rely on what the churches teach.

Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.

But they set their abominations in the house, WHICH IS CALLED BY MY NAME, to defile it. (Jeremiah 32:32-34)

This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments OF MEN. (Mat 15:8-9)

Peace.

I think you're Calvinist because you speak like one.
You know the old saying about a duck....

I'd like to make two comments:
1. The verses you post at the end of the above post make no sense to me. I have no idea why you've posted them.

2. NO ONE can go to the bible and read through the NT and come away having ANY of the calvinist ideas.
Why? Because God invites ALL MEN to be saved, and not just a select few.

Now, IF you read the word ELECT and it makes you wonder about this...then, perhaps, it would be a good idea to learn from some men that understand the bible much better than we ever can as individuals.

There's one fact that we must come away with that is this:
GOD LOVES EVERYONE --- HE LOVES HIS CREATION
GOD WISHES THAT ALL COME TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF HIM
GOD WISHES THAT ALL MEN COULD BE SAVED but of course, they won't accept His conditions.

IF you believe anything else after having read the NT, then you've been influenced in one way or another, and not correctly so.

Other than this, you owe me no explanation and I pray that you know how much God loves us and how merciful He is and how Just He is.

I do need to bring to attention the fact that you have NOT explained what it means for God to be just.

But no matter.
So far no reformed, or reformed leaning person, has given a description - and I stated why in my previous post to you.

 

[Johann]

I am disappointed with their response.
They concluded that the gentiles were to NOT be under the law, but then they do this! ???? Say what?

[

Wiki is the last place I will go to for biblical information.

 

[Lambano]

Let me know if you get the info....
Thanks.

That observation was just based on anecdotal evidence from 20 years of participating in Christian forums. But let's just watch and see if anyone quotes John 14:6 or Acts 4:12 at me.

Here's one: Afterlife Survey



Here's another one: Barna Survey

 

[GodsGrace]

That observation was just based on anecdotal evidence from 20 years of participating in Christian forums. But let's just watch and see if anyone quotes John 14:6 or Acts 4:12 at me.

Here's one: Afterlife Survey

View attachment 49505

OK
Looks like I might have been right...
Not to say I'm right but to say that when I became Protestant (or should I say left the CC because I don't KNOW what I am) I kept hearing that persons that don't "accept Jesus as their Savior" are going straight to hell. I'd ask, what about someone that's never heard of Jesus? And the answer would be TOO BAD FOR THEM....just as your previous post stated.

Well, looks like many mainline Christians do not accept this.
Wm Lane Craig - a giant of Christian apologetics, does not accept that notion..
as many others.

Always sounded wrong to me.

John 14:6 is easy to explain.
Had to look up Acts 4:2 but I see no problem there either.

How small do some believe God to be?
I believe, to be clear, that non-Christians have access to heaven based on our exact qualifications.

 

[St. SteVen]

The 613 laws of the OT.
603 of which are obsolete.

How could any of the whole law (as you define it) be obsolete when stumbling at just one point makes one guilty of breaking all of it?

James 2:10 NIV
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

[

 

[Lambano]

How small do some believe God to be?
I believe, to be clear, that non-Christians have access to heaven based on our exact qualifications.

I believe that Jesus Christ has been given sovereign rule over the Kingdom of God, and He can let into His kingdom whoever He wants to let in. Then the question becomes, "Who will He let in?"

(And timidly, "Will He let ME in?")

 

[GodsGrace]

How could any of the whole law (as you define it) be obsolete when stumbling at just one point makes one guilty of breaking all of it?

James 2:10 NIV
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

[

Steven,
You make it difficult to discuss.
Could you please look up and find out what THE LAW is?
Could you explain the 3 types of law found in the OT?

I'm just really tired of explaining this - which has also been done on this, your very own thread.
I now you can't read each and every post...
But look this up yourself and then we'll discuss.

But to answer briefly:
YES 2 parts of THE LAW is now obsolete.
It was PARTICULARLY made obsolete at the destruction of the Temple in 70AD.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe that Jesus Christ has been given sovereign rule over the Kingdom of God, and He can let into His kingdom whoever He wants to let in. Then the question becomes, "Who will He let in?"

(And timidly, "Will He let ME in?")

Easy answer:

He'll let you in if you practice what Jesus taught:
KNOW GOD Hebrews 11 I think 6
BELIEVE IN GOD John 3:16 and let's remember that Jesus IS GOD.
OBEY GOD too many verse to list but I think you'll agree

This could be expounded, but basically that's it.
Romans 1:18-20 will explain this really well.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


Hebrews 11:6
6And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

 

[St. SteVen]

Steven,
You make it difficult to discuss.
Could you please look up and find out what THE LAW is?
Could you explain the 3 types of law found in the OT?

Difficult to discuss if I don't play by your rules. You seem to fall apart when questioned. ???
I gave you a link to my topic on the subject which you refused to look at, if my memory serves.

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...

www.christianityboard.com

[

 

[GodsGrace]

Difficult to discuss if I don't play by your rules. You seem to fall apart when questioned. ???
I gave you a link to my topic on the subject which you refused to look at, if my memory serves.

Observations about the law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law - four different things

- What's the difference between the law and the Law? (capital L) - What's the difference between the law and God's law? - What's the difference between the law, God's law, and Christ's law? The law, the Law, God's law, Christ's law; four different things. Agree, or disagree? Points...

www.christianityboard.com

[

And I still won't look at it because obviously it doesn't teach anything of any value.

I have to leave for a while.
If you repy to this, it'll remind me to get back to this later on.

ITMT,,,,,find out about the 3 types of law in the OT.

 

[St. SteVen]

Could you please look up and find out what THE LAW is?

Biblically I recognize "the law" and "the Law". (note small l and capital L)

I define "the law" as the 613 laws that were given to the Israelites alone by God through Moses.

I define "the Law" as the Torah, the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible.

Here is one verses that uses both terms clearly.

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

And I still won't look at it because obviously it doesn't teach anything of any value.

How could you conclude that if you refuse to even look at it? What are you afraid of? That I might be right?
My views have biblical support. Do yours?

What's the difference between:
- the law
- the Law
- God's law
- Christ's law

???????

[

 

[Wick Stick]

• The "don't eat flesh torn from a living animal" made me internally go "WTF? Who does that anyway?", but by extension, it's considered specific case representing a general prohibition against cruelty. There's a literary term for that which escapes me for a moment. Ah. "Synecdoche".

Not sure what translation you're looking at... mine talks about not eating blood, or meat where the animal was strangled, which is again because there would still be blood in the meat. The Bible is quite adamant that we should not ingest blood, explaining that this is because "the life/soul is in the blood."

I'm not sure how that would be harmful, but... there are plenty of bloodborne pathogens and drinking blood induces vomiting... so even if I don't quite "get" the Scriptural reason, it does seem like a good rule to me!

• The general context for these laws for the Talmud's Jewish audience is, "Who is the 'stranger among you' that Torah requires we protect (which brings to mind a question someone once asked another Rabbi, 'Who is my neighbor?'), and what are their obligations when living amongst us?"

The sojourner's laws make practical sense for people living on permanent land grants in Israel - through which 2 major roads of the ancient world ran (the King's Highway, the Spice Route).

They don't make a ton of obvious sense for Jews in diaspora, but displaced Jewish communities have nonetheless historically offered shelter to travelers. In Genesis we see that Lot observed the sojourner's laws, despite living in Sodom, and despite living before the Law was technically "given." In the apocryphal book of Tobit, there's another example of Jews in exile taking in a traveler, who turns out to be an angel.

• The Jewish sages wrote that Goyim who live according to these laws will be considered righteous and "have a share in the World to Come". A Jewish answer to the question, "What of those who are not one us; how can they be saved?" Compare with the Evangelical Christian answer to that question, which would be, "Sorry, Charlie. Burn, baby, burn!" Do our Jewish cousins believe in a more merciful God than we do?

(Bullet three corrected at @GodsGrace's suggestion.)

Under Jesus' doctrine, righteous Goyim are adopted under Abraham and his Seed, rather than somehow obtaining righteousness outside of the covenants of the ancestors. I am not sure that a "salvation" that doesn't bring the saved into the group makes sense.

Also, the Bible is hostile to the idea that there might be multiple avenues of salvation. It talks of "one faith" and "one salvation" and "no other name."

 

[Wick Stick]

How could any of the whole law (as you define it) be obsolete when stumbling at just one point makes one guilty of breaking all of it?

James 2:10 NIV
For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

Why does that matter? I'm sure James put it there for a reason, but... aren't we ALL guilty of sinning, law or no law?

I don't NEED a law telling me something is wrong for it to BE wrong, do I? The stovetop will still burn my fingers, even it mommy didn't specifically forbid me from touching it.

 

[GodsGrace]

Biblically I recognize "the law" and "the Law". (note small l and capital L)

I define "the law" as the 613 laws that were given to the Israelites alone by God through Moses.

I define "the Law" as the Torah, the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible.

Here is one verses that uses both terms clearly.

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

[

The above is not correct.
THE LAW IS the Torah.
The Law is FOUND in the first 5 books of the OT.
Here you find all the laws and regulations that God gave to Moses.

It's not 2 different teachings.
There are 613 laws....that's it.

As to
Romans 3:21
But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,

It's the same law.
What version are you reading?
Try a few version and see what you come up with.

It's stating that the righteousness of God will no longer be gained by observing every bit of the law as in the OT Covenants.

It's stating that the law is witness that the new way, Jesus is NOW manifest because Jesus obeyed the law fully on our behalf....
The law and the prophets have prophesied the coming of Christ.

Paul is comparing the old covenant to the new covenant.
Law vs Jesus
Law vs Grace

 

[GodsGrace]

How could you conclude that if you refuse to even look at it? What are you afraid of? That I might be right?
My views have biblical support. Do yours?

What's the difference between:
- the law
- the Law
- God's law
- Christ's law

???????

[

the law is anything that is a law/rule
the Law refers to the 613 laws/rules given to Moses
God's law is anything that God commands, whether it's in the OT, NT, or anywhere else that might be important (can't think of where right now)
Christ's law The law left to us by Christ...Love God, Yourself, Your neighbor ---which encompasses EVERY LAW Jesus left us with.

I just posted to you re Romans 3:21
The NIV does not say it the way you have it.
I just checked.

 

[St. SteVen]

Why does that matter?

Definitions matter.
Many believe that we are under the OT law because Jesus said he did not come to abolish the Law. (or the Prophets) Oops.
When in reality Jesus was saying that the prophecies about him in the books of the Law and the Prophets still apply.

[