Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?
- Thread starter St. SteVen
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Wasn't the coming of the Messiah witnessed to by the Prophets?
Didn't Jesus tell the 2 disciples on the way to Emmaus that the Prophets had spoken of Him?
Luke 24:18-27
18One of them, named Cleopas, answered and said to Him, “Are You the only one visiting Jerusalem and unaware of the things which have happened here in these days?”
19And He said to them, “What things?” And they said to Him, “The things about Jesus the Nazarene, who was a prophet mighty in deed and word in the sight of God and all the people,
20and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered Him to the sentence of death, and crucified Him.
21“But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened.
22“But also some women among us amazed us. When they were at the tomb early in the morning,
23and did not find His body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels who said that He was alive.
24“Some of those who were with us went to the tomb and found it just exactly as the women also had said; but Him they did not see.” 25And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken!
26“Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?”
27Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.
Wick Stick
Well-Known Member
Yes. But you seem to be making the problem... overcomplicated... splitting hairs between law and Law in a way that doesn't need to happen, IMO.
This IS a problem. But there's an easier solution to the problem:
Jesus wasn't talking to everybody in Matthew 5! The people He was talking to... they WERE under the Law/law... and Jesus did NOT release them from their obligation to it. Context matters.
For those of us who are grafted in... we were never under the Law. There is no obligation to the Law for us to be loosed from... we never had that obligation to begin with.
There is, perhaps, a case to be made that when we are adopted/grafted-in, we gain an obligation to the Law. But Paul goes to some lengths to refute this idea. Per Paul... Gentiles who are adopted become sons of Abraham, and Abraham was not subject to Moses Law... he lived and died before it existed.
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
There is a verse that speaks of Jesus being the End of the Law for righteousness
The verse I'm referring to is Romans 10:4. It states:
This verse signifies that Jesus Christ fulfilled the requirements of the Mosaic Law, and through faith in Him, believers attain righteousness. It emphasizes the transition from the old covenant, based on the law, to the new covenant, based on faith in Christ.
Walking with Christ means being where the Law for Righteousness ends.
That shouldn't be scary, like if someone was going, "Help, Christ has been crucified. It was so horrible, and now He is the end of the Law for Righteousness. What are we going to do?"
Romans 3:21
New International Version
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.Source: Bible Gateway passage: Romans 3:21 - New International Version
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St. SteVen said:
Biblically I recognize "the law" and "the Law". (note small l and capital L)
I define "the law" as the 613 laws that were given to the Israelites alone by God through Moses.
I define "the Law" as the Torah, the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible.
Here is one verses that uses both terms clearly.
Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
[
Biblically I recognize "the law" and "the Law". (note small l and capital L)
I define "the law" as the 613 laws that were given to the Israelites alone by God through Moses.
I define "the Law" as the Torah, the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible.
Here is one verses that uses both terms clearly.
Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
Do you have reading comprehension problems?
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What do you make of this?
Ephesians 2:14-16 NIV
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one
and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations.
His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross,
by which he put to death their hostility.
Romans 10:4 NIV
Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be
righteousness for everyone who believes.
Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.
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There will always be differing opinions on topics like the law, the Ten Commandments, the Law of the Spirit, and Christ. That’s why I generally avoid engaging in those discussions.
Goodnight.
Fair enough. However...
This is a discussion forum. Such a place thrives on lively and meaningful interaction. Differing opinions should be challenged in a positive way. What growth comes from protecting the status quo? What good is an echo chamber of limited interaction?
If everyone agreed, there wouldn't be much point to a forum - Agree, or disagree? - LOL
"Agree, or disagree?" That really is the question. If everyone agreed, there wouldn't be much point to a forum - But, can we embrace disagreement? (and each other?) How do you react when you encounter disagreement? If I disagree with you, was it meant to be a declaration of war? (nope)...
www.christianityboard.com
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I prefer face-to-face conversations and would rather not spend my time on secondary issues with limited word characters on the Internet.Fair enough. However...
This is a discussion forum. Such a place thrives on lively and meaningful interaction. Differing opinions should be challenged in a positive way. What growth comes from protecting the status quo? What good is an echo chamber of limited interaction?
If everyone agreed, there wouldn't be much point to a forum - Agree, or disagree? - LOL
"Agree, or disagree?" That really is the question. If everyone agreed, there wouldn't be much point to a forum - But, can we embrace disagreement? (and each other?) How do you react when you encounter disagreement? If I disagree with you, was it meant to be a declaration of war? (nope)...
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You do you.
You have my approval and blessing. I for one, will miss your valuable insights. Take care.
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Face to face-I'm all for it and love a healthy debate. We are to redeem the time-not wasting it.
That was your post #10,135.
When do you plan to follow your convictions?
I'm not trying to get rid of you, just wondering if your walk will match your talk. ???
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April 2, 2022 to August 22, 2024 = Over 28 months for 10,000+ posts (approx 850 days) =12 posts per day on average, 7 days a week.
What are the statistics for your preferred face-to-face interactions? More than 12 per day?
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Beebster
Member
Yes I do.
Do the ducks ("the reformed") believe that Jesus Christ will save every soul that ever lived?
Well, I do.
Do the ducks believe in hell?
I don’t.
Do the ducks believe in the trinity?
I don’t.
Quack, Quack.
Beebster
Member
That, to me, is no wonder.
Witness after witness shows us we are blind so I will only post this one.
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) UNTO THIS DAY. (Rom 11:7-8)
I’m sure you find that offensive, but before you accuse me of being arrogant or claiming that I’m one of God’s Elect, let me assure you I am blind as well. And what I have been shown comes from Christ not man’s wisdom. I am thankful for all that I have been shown which is far, far from everything.
I know what I know only because God want’s me to know it.
And when I’m lost and something makes no sense to me I pray for that knowledge and do as instructed; I search out the scriptures:
It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter. (Prov 25:2)
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. (Acts 17:11)
And just because a person searches, doesn’t mean the answer will come right away. It might, but it may just as well take days, months or even years before the truth is shown.
Does searching the scripture mean we don’t fellowship? Of course not; that is, for the most part, how we are taught which may seem like I’m contradicting myself when I say do not put my trust in man or theologians. But I’m not.
Christ teaches Christ.
And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (Rev 19:10) Second witness see Rev 22:9
Is Christ in John? Yes.
Is Christ in John’s fellowservant? Of course.
Again, Christ teaches Christ.
So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. (Rom 12:5) Second witness see 1 Cor 12:12
Third witness:
I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (Gal 2:20)
Cont. in the next post.
Beebster
Member
Continuing from post 418
One thing I’ve learned through fellowship and through searching the scripture is that false witnesses played a major role in the crucifixion of our Lord and Savior and still do to this day. Whenever someone witnesses against the truth they kill the Word of God.
But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses, (Mat 26:60)
And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying, (Mark 14:57)
We are given instruction not to bear false witness:
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (Exo 20:16)
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (Mat 18:16)
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. (2 Cor 13:1)
And does that apply to the Word of God?
It most certainly does.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)
What words? All of them; the whole Bible, scripture.
Those words are SPIRIT and LIFE.
What else are we told about Jesus’ words?
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Mat 24:25)
Second witness:
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. (Luk 21:33)
Third witness:
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. (Mark 13:31)
Once we are GIVEN the sight to see that my words shall not pass away and that they are spirit and life and that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established then we can understand that we are to compare the Word of God with the Word of God:
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; COMPARING spiritual things (the Word of God) with spiritual (the Word of God). (1 Cor 2:15)
The Word of God witnesses to the Word of God.
Are we to come to the truth by comparing one witness to someone’s opinion?
No.
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Pet 1:20)
There you have it: in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (Mat 18:16) Spiritual witnesses that never pass away.
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1)
By trying the spirits we can see this example of a false witness:
Here we have an opinion and a verse. That does not equal a truth. That is a “private interpretation.”
Notice, the word “tartaroo” (g5020) is found only once in the scripture (even by your own admission), yet false doctrines abound on the subject.
Where is the second witness?
Cont. in the next post
One thing I’ve learned through fellowship and through searching the scripture is that false witnesses played a major role in the crucifixion of our Lord and Savior and still do to this day. Whenever someone witnesses against the truth they kill the Word of God.
But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses, (Mat 26:60)
And there arose certain, and bare false witness against him, saying, (Mark 14:57)
We are given instruction not to bear false witness:
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour. (Exo 20:16)
But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (Mat 18:16)
This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. (2 Cor 13:1)
And does that apply to the Word of God?
It most certainly does.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)
What words? All of them; the whole Bible, scripture.
Those words are SPIRIT and LIFE.
What else are we told about Jesus’ words?
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. (Mat 24:25)
Second witness:
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. (Luk 21:33)
Third witness:
Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. (Mark 13:31)
Once we are GIVEN the sight to see that my words shall not pass away and that they are spirit and life and that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established then we can understand that we are to compare the Word of God with the Word of God:
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; COMPARING spiritual things (the Word of God) with spiritual (the Word of God). (1 Cor 2:15)
The Word of God witnesses to the Word of God.
Are we to come to the truth by comparing one witness to someone’s opinion?
No.
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. (2 Pet 1:20)
There you have it: in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (Mat 18:16) Spiritual witnesses that never pass away.
Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (1 John 4:1)
By trying the spirits we can see this example of a false witness:
GodsGrace said:
Here we have an opinion and a verse. That does not equal a truth. That is a “private interpretation.”
Notice, the word “tartaroo” (g5020) is found only once in the scripture (even by your own admission), yet false doctrines abound on the subject.
Where is the second witness?
Cont. in the next post
Beebster
Member
Continuing from post 419
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are FOOLISHNESS unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2:14)
We can all read scripture, and we can all offer opinions on what it means, but unless Christ heals our blindness we will remain lost:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:15) Second Witness see John 12:40
It is God who gives us understanding, it doesn’t come by free will and it’s not taught by man it comes from above:
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19)
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do NOTHING. (John 15:5)
Jesus Christ is the Word of God see John 1:1
Second witness:
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:13)
And Jesus Christ is he “which is, and which was, and which is to come;”
John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; (Rev 1:4)
Second witness:
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)
Third witness:
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. (Rev 4:8)
As to your statement:
Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.
But they set their abominations in the house, WHICH IS CALLED BY MY NAME, to defile it. (Jeremiah 32:32-34)
Second witness:
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments OF MEN. (Mat 15:8-9)
And though these words applied to the church millennia ago through Christ “which was” -my words shall not pass away. (Mark 13:31)
they still apply now to Christ “which is” -my words shall not pass away. (Luk 21:33)
and they will apply to Christ “which is to come.” -my words shall not pass away. (Mat 24:25)
the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
I hope I've cleared up a few things for you GG.
I will respond to your second comment when I find the time
After that I will explain to you what I believe God's justice is.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are FOOLISHNESS unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Cor 2:14)
We can all read scripture, and we can all offer opinions on what it means, but unless Christ heals our blindness we will remain lost:
For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. (Mat 13:15) Second Witness see John 12:40
It is God who gives us understanding, it doesn’t come by free will and it’s not taught by man it comes from above:
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. (John 5:19)
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do NOTHING. (John 15:5)
Jesus Christ is the Word of God see John 1:1
Second witness:
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:13)
And Jesus Christ is he “which is, and which was, and which is to come;”
John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; (Rev 1:4)
Second witness:
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8)
Third witness:
And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. (Rev 4:8)
As to your statement:
What I posted were two, witnesses to the condition, the state, of God’s church:
Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.
But they set their abominations in the house, WHICH IS CALLED BY MY NAME, to defile it. (Jeremiah 32:32-34)
Second witness:
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments OF MEN. (Mat 15:8-9)
And though these words applied to the church millennia ago through Christ “which was” -my words shall not pass away. (Mark 13:31)
they still apply now to Christ “which is” -my words shall not pass away. (Luk 21:33)
and they will apply to Christ “which is to come.” -my words shall not pass away. (Mat 24:25)
the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. (John 6:63)
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
I hope I've cleared up a few things for you GG.
I will respond to your second comment when I find the time
After that I will explain to you what I believe God's justice is.
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