Is your faith your own? - Is "the Faith" prescribed by a human institution?

[GodsGrace]

St. SteVen said:
John 5:18 NIV
For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

Let's check the context. See below.
In verse 17 Jesus gives his defense.
But what is the most basic law concerning the Sabbath?
No work. It is a day of forced rest. Jesus says that he and the Father are working.
The leaders understood this full well. An admission of Sabbath-breaking.

John 5:16-18 NIV
So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath,
the Jewish leaders began to persecute him.
17 In his defense Jesus said to them,
“My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.”
18 For this reason they tried all the more to kill him;
not only was he breaking the Sabbath,
but he was even calling God his own Father,
making himself equal with God.

[

Almost there.
Jesus broke the Sabbath because the Pharisees were making it a burden.
Because they were too strict about what could be done on the Sabbath.
Because the prohibitions of the Pharisees were unbiblical.

Jesus taught that:
Life could be saved even on the Sabbath.
Thou shalt not kill.
Matthew 12:12

He taught that food could be procured on the Sabbath.
Mark 2:23.....

Jesus DID NOT BREAK THE SABBATH in WORSHIP.
He taught that some of what the Pharisees were teaching WAS WRONG.

This is NOT breaking the Sabbath.
As YOU intended to prove.
Jesus kept the Sabbath, and all of the Commandments.

The Sabbath was made for man...
not man for the Sabbath.

It was for rest and time to worship God.
Not to let animals die or to prohibit the gathering food.

Luke 4:16
16And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath,

As was His CUSTOM, He entered the synagogue ON THE SABBATH.
As was His custom....
Jesus worshipped on the Sabbath.
He kept all the commandments.

 

[St. SteVen]

Read Matthew 12:12 and Mark 2:23-27
and don't miss Mark 2:28 when Jesus calls Himself the LORD OF THE SABBATH.
What did Jesus mean by this?

Let's look at Matthew chapter 12. Scripture below.
Besides the forced "no work" on the Sabbath law, was the prohibition of food collection and prep on the Sabbath.
Food was to be gathered and prepared in advance of the Sabbath day of rest. What do we see in the scripture below?

- The Pharisees witnessed the disciples gathering food on the Sabbath and confronted Jesus about this violation of law.
- Jesus responds by implicating himself, "“Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry?" - vs 3
- He compares what he and the disciples had done to what David and his companions had done, "which was not lawful for them to do". - vs 4
- He adds the statement that "priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent". - vs 5
- Then he declares their innocence, "... you would not have condemned the innocent." - vs 7
- Reason being, "For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.” - vs 8 -- Meaning, it was his call. (above the law = Lord)

Matthew 12:1-8
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2 When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, “Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath.”
3 He answered, “Haven’t you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5 Or haven’t you read in the Law that the priests on Sabbath duty in the temple desecrate the Sabbath and yet are innocent? 6 I tell you that something greater than the temple is here. 7 If you had known what these words mean, ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice,’[a] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.”

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Almost there.
Jesus broke the Sabbath because the Pharisees were making it a burden.
Because they were too strict about what could be done on the Sabbath.
Because the prohibitions of the Pharisees were unbiblical.

So, you admit that Jesus broke the Sabbath.
Why do you have a problem with what I am saying then?

The Pharisees were objecting to things the WERE part of the law, not add-ons.
Work on the Sabbath was prohibited by Mosaic law.
Food collection on the Sabbath was prohibited by Mosaic law.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Luke 4:16
16And He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up; and as was His custom, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath,

As was His CUSTOM, He entered the synagogue ON THE SABBATH.
As was His custom....
Jesus worshipped on the Sabbath.
He kept all the commandments.

Jesus entered the synagogue on the Sabbath for the same reason the Apostle Paul did.
To save lost Sabbatarians. The synagogues were full of unbelievers.
Neither were there to support the cause of those they spoke to.

Acts 17:2-4 NIV
As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue,
and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead.
“This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said.
4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas,
as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Do you believe that Jesus DID NOT teach the 10 commandments in one way or another?

Here is what the Apostle Paul has to say about the Ten Commandments.
Assuming they were "engraved in letters on stone".

Paul says the TCs are the transitory ministry of condemnation and death which have no glory now.

2 Corinthians 3:7-11 NIV
Now if the ministry that brought death,
which was engraved in letters on stone,
came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily
at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious,
how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory.
11 And if what was transitory came with glory,
how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

[

 

[Johann]

Here is what the Apostle Paul has to say about the Ten Commandments.
Assuming they were "engraved in letters on stone".

Let's add some additional Scriptural info-

1. The Law of Moses
1.1 Overview:

This refers to the Old Testament Law given to Israel through Moses, including the commandments and statutes outlined in the Torah (the first five books of the Old Testament).
Paul acknowledges the Law of Moses but argues that it is no longer the guiding principle for salvation for believers in Christ.
1.2 Key References:

Galatians 3:24 (Lexham Bible): "So that the law has become our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith."
Romans 7:6 (Lexham Bible): "But now we have been released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code."

2. The Law of Christ
2.1 Overview:

This law is understood as the ethical teachings of Jesus and the principles of Christian conduct that believers are called to follow.
It emphasizes love, grace, and the new covenant relationship between believers and God.
2.2 Key References:

Galatians 6:2 (Lexham Bible): "Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ."
1 Corinthians 9:21 (Lexham Bible): "To those who are without law, as without law (not being without law to God but under law to Christ), that I might win those who are without law."

3. The Law of the Spirit
3.1 Overview:

This concept represents the new way of living empowered by the Holy Spirit, contrasting with the old way of the written law.
It signifies the internal transformation and guidance provided by the Spirit.
3.2 Key References:

Romans 8:2 (Lexham Bible): "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death."
2 Corinthians 3:6 (Lexham Bible): "who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life."

4. The Law of Faith
4.1 Overview:

This principle emphasizes that righteousness comes through faith in Jesus Christ rather than adherence to the Law of Moses.
It highlights the transformative power of faith in establishing a right relationship with God.
4.2 Key References:

Romans 3:27 (Lexham Bible): "Where then is the boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith."
Romans 4:13 (Lexham Bible): "For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith."

In the Pauline epistles, the following laws are referenced:

The Law of Moses - The Old Testament laws and commandments.
The Law of Christ - The ethical teachings and principles of Christian living.
The Law of the Spirit - The new way of living empowered by the Holy Spirit.
The Law of Faith - The principle that righteousness comes through faith in Jesus Christ rather than works of the Law.

Maybe you can add more.
J.

 

[St. SteVen]

He taught that food could be procured on the Sabbath.
Mark 2:23.....

That is a violation of the law God gave to the Israelites through Moses in Exodus chapter 16,
concerning Manna collection and Sabbath observance.

Exodus 16:4-5 NIV
Then the Lord said to Moses, “I will rain down bread from heaven for you.
The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day.
In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions.
5 On the sixth day they are to prepare what they bring in,
and that is to be twice as much as they gather on the other days.”

Exodus 16:21-23 NIV
Each morning everyone gathered as much as they needed,
and when the sun grew hot, it melted away.
22 On the sixth day, they gathered twice as much—two omers[a] for each person—
and the leaders of the community came and reported this to Moses.
23 He said to them, “This is what the Lord commanded:
‘Tomorrow is to be a day of sabbath rest, a holy sabbath to the Lord.
So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil.
Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.’”

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Jesus worshipped on the Sabbath.
He kept all the commandments.

The law (guardian/schoolmaster) had an expiration date. It became obsolete.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Hebrews 8:7, 13 NIV
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant,
no place would have been sought for another.
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Deuteronomy 5:2-3 NIV
The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb.
3 It was not with our ancestors[a] that the Lord made this covenant,
but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

[

 

[Behold]

The "real Faith"? It says that? Show us. Thanks.

[

Sure, i'll do your bible study for you
np, @St. SteVen

""""exhorting YOU to contend earnestly for THE FAITH which was once for all delivered to the saints""""

 

[Johann]

Sure, i'll do your bible study for you, as usual.
np, @St. SteVen

""""exhorting YOU to contend earnestly for THE FAITH which was once for all delivered to the saints""""


If you need me to comprehend "THE faith" for you, then i guess you have an issue.

It seems like @St. SteVen is asking you where "real" faith originates, especially considering the text in Jude 1:3: "Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people." (Jude 1:3, Lexham Bible)


Jud 1:3

αγαπητοι G27 A-VPM ἀγαπητός beloved​	πασαν G3956 A-ASF πᾶς all​	σπουδην G4710 N-ASF σπουδή speed​	ποιουμενος G4160 V-PMP-NSM ποιέω to make​	γραφειν G1125 V-PAN γράφω to grave​	υμιν G5213 P-2DP σύ to you​
περι G4012 PREP περί through​	της G3588 T-GSF ὁ the​	κοινης G2839 A-GSF κοινός common​	ημων G2257 P-1GP ἐγώ of us να​	σωτηριας G4991 N-GSF σωτηρία rescue​	αναγκην G318 N-ASF ἀναγκή constraint​
εσχον G2192 V-2AAI-1S ἔχω to hold​	γραψαι G1125 V-AAN γράφω to grave​	υμιν G5213 P-2DP σύ to you​	παρακαλων G3870 V-PAP-NSM παρακαλέω to call near​	επαγωνιζεσθαι G1864 V-PNN ἐπαγωνίζομαι to struggle for​	τη G3588 T-DSF ὁ the​
απαξ G530 ADV ἅπαξ one time​	παραδοθειση G3860 V-APP-DSF παραδίδωμι to surrender​	τοις G3588 T-DPM ὁ the​	αγιοις G40 A-DPM ἅγιος sacred​	πιστει G4102 N-DSF πίστις persuasion​

Just an observation-not being facetious.
J.

 

[Behold]

It seems like @St. SteVen is asking you where "real" faith originates

Everyone has real faith.

We are ALL born with Free will and real faith.

This is why when an Atheist says......>"i dont BELIEVE in God'... they are showing you that they have no FAITH in God's Existence.
Their REAL FAITH, is that God does not Exist.
They are not proving they have no faith.......They are proving that they have faith, but Not in God.............as we all have "the measure of faith".. that is a part of our soul realm, our : "mind, will , and emotions".

Reader, every religion, is based on the FAITH that people put in it.
Understand?
That is their REAL FAITH, shown.
So, that is not faith in CHRIST, but its still REAL FAITH....

Listen,
Tom Cruise, BELIEVES, in Scientology.....and his FAITH in Scientology is as REAL as yours is, in Christ., ... Reader.

So, what God is looking for, is for us to take OUR Faith, that is in ALL humans, and place it in CHRIST, and not it Buddha, or Mary Baker Eddy, or The Pope.. or in "the big bang theory".

See it?

You, me .. all of us, have REAL FAITH... and God wants us to take Our Real FAITH, and place it in JESUS, and once we do, then OUR "Faith (in Christ) is counted by GOD, as (Christ's) Righteousness". , and we are justified by OUR FAITH.... In Christ., according to God's promise.

 

[St. SteVen]

In the Pauline epistles, the following laws are referenced:

The Law of Moses - The Old Testament laws and commandments.
The Law of Christ - The ethical teachings and principles of Christian living.
The Law of the Spirit - The new way of living empowered by the Holy Spirit.
The Law of Faith - The principle that righteousness comes through faith in Jesus Christ rather than works of the Law.

Maybe you can add more.

Good post, thanks.

- God's law
- the law of sin and death
- the perfect law
- the royal law
- the whole law
- the Books of the Law (as in, the Law and the Prophets and Psalms)

1 Corinthians 9:21 NIV
To those not having the law I became like one not having the law
(though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law),
so as to win those not having the law.

Romans 8:2 NIV
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life
has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death.

James 1:25 NIV
But whoever looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom,
and continues in it—not forgetting what they have heard, but doing it—
they will be blessed in what they do.

James 2:8 NIV
If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture,
“Love your neighbor as yourself,”[a] you are doing right.

Galatians 5:3 NIV
Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised
that he is obligated to obey the whole law.

Romans 3:21 NIV
But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known,
to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Luke 24:44 NIV
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you:
Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses,
the Prophets and the Psalms.”

COMPARE

Matthew 5:17 NIV
“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

[

 

[Behold]

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets;
I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

[

Yes, Yeshua fullfilled them on OUR Behalf, so that we are released from the Law that was defining us as a SINNER.

And now, being released, the born again are "not under the Law, but under Grace'.

"Christ is the END... OF>... THE... LAW... for Righteousness, to/for everyone who BELIEVES"...

 

[GodsGrace]

So, you admit that Jesus broke the Sabbath.
Why do you have a problem with what I am saying then?

The Pharisees were objecting to things the WERE part of the law, not add-ons.
Work on the Sabbath was prohibited by Mosaic law.
Food collection on the Sabbath was prohibited by Mosaic law.

[

No.
The Pharisees ADDED requirements to the Sabbath.
The Sabbath was given by God at Mt. Sinai because the Israelites were enslaved for almost 400 years and had forgotten was civilized life was like.

They forgot about what REST is.

YOU stated that Jesus did NOT KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS or did not teach the commandments....
as an example you stated that He broke the Sabbath....
as SUPPORT that JESUS BROKE THE SABBATH.

Now, if you want to believe that Jesus did not keep the Commandments, or did not teach them,
or broke the Sabbath - in the way you had originally posed - then just say so and this conversation is over.

IF you believe that Jesus KEPT THE 10 COMMANDMENTS
INCLUDING THE SABBATH - that would be worship of the Sabbath the way GOD COMMANDED
and NOT the way that the Pharisees commanded...then fine, you could agree and it's over with anyway.

I'm not willing to debate whether or not Jesus taught the commandments or whether or not He kept the commandments.

This is a principle tenet and teaching of Christianity and should require no debate.

 

[GodsGrace]

So, you admit that Jesus broke the Sabbath.
Why do you have a problem with what I am saying then?

The Pharisees were objecting to things the WERE part of the law, not add-ons.
Work on the Sabbath was prohibited by Mosaic law.
Food collection on the Sabbath was prohibited by Mosaic law.

[

The law (guardian/schoolmaster) had an expiration date. It became obsolete.

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

Hebrews 8:7, 13 NIV
7 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant,
no place would have been sought for another.
13 By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete;
and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear.

Deuteronomy 5:2-3 NIV
The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb.
3 It was not with our ancestors[a] that the Lord made this covenant,
but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

[

I don't know what the above has to do with your statement that Jesus did not
teach the commandments and that He did not keep the Sabbath.

Anyway,
Nuff of this for me.

 

[St. SteVen]

No.
The Pharisees ADDED requirements to the Sabbath.
The Sabbath was given by God at Mt. Sinai because the Israelites were enslaved for almost 400 years and had forgotten was civilized life was like.

They forgot about what REST is.

There is no evidence that anyone observed the Sabbath before it was introduced in Exodus chapter 16.
The Sabbath points to creation, not the other way around.
And "remember" means to observe faithfully, not the opposite of "forget".

[

 

[St. SteVen]

Now, if you want to believe that Jesus did not keep the Commandments, or did not teach them,
or broke the Sabbath - in the way you had originally posed - then just say so and this conversation is over.

It is obvious to me that Jesus was deconstructing the law as he went. It began with the forerunner.
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. - Matthew 11:13
Until John? Then what?
In Matthew chapter five Jesus treats the law as hearsay. "You have heard that it was said... But I tell you..." (5x)

I'm not willing to debate whether or not Jesus taught the commandments or whether or not He kept the commandments.

This is a principle tenet and teaching of Christianity and should require no debate.

I honor your choice to debate/discuss, or not.
However, this is a highly debatable subject, no attempt should be made to quash debate/discussion.

I understand that some take their position on this personally and know enough to back away before things get ugly.

[

 

[GodsGrace]

There is no evidence that anyone observed the Sabbath before it was introduced in Exodus chapter 16.
The Sabbath points to creation, not the other way around.
And "remember" means to observe faithfully, not the opposite of "forget".

[

Who said it was introduced before the Exodus?

Do you even read my posts?

Bye.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is obvious to me that Jesus was deconstructing the law as he went. It began with the forerunner.
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John. - Matthew 11:13
Until John? Then what?
In Matthew chapter five Jesus treats the law as hearsay. "You have heard that it was said... But I tell you..." (5x)


I honor your choice to debate/discuss, or not.
However, this is a highly debatable subject, no attempt should be made to quash debate/discussion.

I understand that some take their position on this personally and know enough to back away before things get ugly.

[

Steven,
we're not discussing THE LAW here...

We WERE discussing:

1. Did Jesus teach/speak of the commandments.
TO WHICH YOU BEGAN BY STATING THE NEGATIVE.

2. Did Jesus obey the Sabbath.
TO WHICH YOU BEGAN BY STATING THE NEGATIVE.

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't know what the above has to do with your statement that Jesus did not
teach the commandments and that He did not keep the Sabbath.

The law was our guardian UNTIL Jesus came. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the law (guardian).
Why would Jesus promote the law that was put aside to make room for faith?

Galatians 3:23-25 NIV
Before the coming of this faith,[a] we were held in custody under the law,
locked up until the faith that was to come would be revealed.
24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came that we might be justified by faith.
25 Now that this faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian.

[