Indisputable proof that the Premillennial theory contradicts Scripture

[Scott Downey]

16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain

when did these things happen?

2 thess 1 has no bearing.. The question is did/will what God say would happen or did/will it not happen?

one thing is for sure. if they do not happen, God is a liar

2 Thess and Zech 14 are describing the same event in time, the return of Christ. IT most definitely has bearing.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What do you mean by "revelations?"

Revelation 20

Satan Bound 1,000 Years​

Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while. ...

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Parables, prophecies, stories including Revelation can have to be explained to be understood with the correct meaning.
You cannot setup such a disconnect one from the other. There are no unsaved survivors when Christ returns, He slays them all who do not obey the gospel and who do not know God..

Here is another OT scripture that says they are all destroyed on the Day of the Lord's return

Malachi 4

New King James Version

The Great Day of God​

1 “For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
4 “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
6 And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

1st. a parable uses symbols to try to explain a spiritual truth

a prophecy is a word spoken from God to show events which will happen in the future./ so that when those things happen. the people who witness them will know it came from the 1 true God. because only the 1 true God can declair events hundreds of years before they happen. and they literally come true.

You keep going to other passages. Stick to Zech when did those things happen. when were countries who came against Jerusalem come back to Jerusalem to worship the king

if yuo can not show me it ever happened. Then I will consider you are incorrect in your thinking.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Parables, prophecies, stories including Revelation can have to be explained to be understood with the correct meaning.
You cannot setup such a disconnect one from the other. There are no unsaved survivors when Christ returns, He slays them all who do not obey the gospel and who do not know God..

Here is another OT scripture that says they are all destroyed on the Day of the Lord's return

Malachi 4

New King James Version

The Great Day of God​

1 “For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the Lord of hosts,
“That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings;
And you shall go out
And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
3 You shall trample the wicked,
For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet
On the day that I do this,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
4 “Remember the Law of Moses, My servant,
Which I commanded him in Horeb for all Israel,
With the statutes and judgments.
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet
Before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
6 And he will turn
The hearts of the fathers to the children,
And the hearts of the children to their fathers,
Lest I come and strike the earth with a curse.”

Malachi discusses the disposition of Israel, not the entire world.

 

[Scott Downey]

1st. a parable uses symbols to try to explain a spiritual truth

a prophecy is a word spoken from God to show events which will happen in the future./ so that when those things happen. the people who witness them will know it came from the 1 true God. because only the 1 true God can declair events hundreds of years before they happen. and they literally come true.

You keep going to other passages. Stick to Zech when did those things happen. when were countries who came against Jerusalem come back to Jerusalem to worship the king

if yuo can not show me it ever happened. Then I will consider you are incorrect in your thinking.

2 Thess and Zech 14 are describing the same event in time, the return of Christ. IT most definitely has bearing.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If there is no physically rebuilt temple made by the Jews, the other idea of Satan inhabiting the temple of God as in possessing believers and owning them makes no sense.

Where are you getting that idea from? Why would you think that some physical rebuilt temple could possibly be the temple of God? That is not possible. WE (the church) are the temple of God. You need to interpret scripture with scripture here. You can't think that Paul would refer to the temple of God as the church everywhere else and then suddenly refer to it as some physical rebuilt temple in 2 Thess 2:3. That's not how to interpret scripture.

Satan cannot drive out the Holy Spirit from a person, and a saved person will not drive Him out either.
The Spirit of God drives out Satan, not the other way round. If you do not believe, then you are not the 'Temple of God' as God saves those who believe in Christ and indwells them with His Spirit.
SATAN could only sit in a person who is unsaved as a possession. Of course also the phrase, sit in and declare himself god, well Satan is of this world and desires worship, so it will be not a spiritual invisible thing he does, it will be something people can touch, feel, experience see with their physical bodies. The whole of unsaved men will worship and follow the beast, etc...

1 Corinthians 6:17
But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him.

Satan cannot sit in the 'Temple of God' as if Satan could, it would not be the temple of God. So the 'temple of God' in 2 Thess 2 must be a physical temple of rocks of this world.

This doesn't make any sense to me. I'll just tell you how I understand it. I believe the falling away that Paul refers to in 2 Thess 2:3 is directly related to the man of sin sitting in the temple of God an claiming to be God. The reference to the man of sin is not to any one person but to sinful mankind in general and possibly refers to those who fall away in particular. Instead of following after God they decide that they don't need God, thereby essentially making themselves God. The man of sin sitting in the temple of God claiming to be God is a figurative reference to people claiming to be part of the church (the temple of God), but not accepting the truth of the gospel and the word of God, but believing what they want to believe instead, making themselves God.

I see "the man of sin" as basically being the opposite of "the man of God" that Paul talked about here...

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

This is not referring to an individual man of God, but rather to the people of God generally. All scripture "is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God", representing all people of God since what he says applies to all people of God, "may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works". The man of sin is basically the opposite of the man of God because the man of sin does not accept what is taught in scripture.

The Jews and the unbelieving world will think of as the 'temple of God', actually their temple. And they will make animal sacrifices there. They are getting ready even now. Some situation will occur and the temple will be rebuilt.

The temple of God that Paul referred to is God's temple. A temple that God would consider to be His temple. Otherwise it wouldn't be called "the temple of God". Some temple built by Christ rejecting Jews could not possibly be considered the temple of God. If such a temple is ever actually built, it will not be the temple of God that Paul wrote about. Please think about this.

 

[Scott Downey]

Where are you getting that idea from? Why would you think that some physical rebuilt temple could possibly be the temple of God? That is not possible. WE (the church) are the temple of God. You need to interpret scripture with scripture here. You can't think that Paul would refer to the temple of God as the church everywhere else and then suddenly refer to it as some physical rebuilt temple in 2 Thess 2:3. That's not how to interpret scripture.


This doesn't make any sense to me. I'll just tell you how I understand it. I believe the falling away that Paul refers to in 2 Thess 2:3 is directly related to the man of sin sitting in the temple of God an claiming to be God. The reference to the man of sin is not to any one person but to sinful mankind in general and possibly refers to those who fall away in particular. Instead of following after God they decide that they don't need God, thereby essentially making themselves God. The man of sin sitting in the temple of God claiming to be God is a figurative reference to people claiming to be part of the church (the temple of God), but not accepting the truth of the gospel and the word of God, but believing what they want to believe instead, making themselves God.

I see "the man of sin" as basically being the opposite of "the man of God" that Paul talked about here...

2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

This is not referring to an individual man of God, but rather to the people of God generally. All scripture "is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God", representing all people of God since what he says applies to all people of God, "may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works". The man of sin is basically the opposite of the man of God because the man of sin does not accept what is taught in scripture.


The temple of God that Paul referred to is God's temple. A temple that God would consider to be His temple. Otherwise it wouldn't be called "the temple of God". Some temple built by Christ rejecting Jews could not possibly be considered the temple of God. If such a temple is ever actually built, it will not be the temple of God that Paul wrote about. Please think about this.

Like I said, it is not people who Satan sits in here.

Son of perdition — Is the son of pedition Judas or the Antichrist?

Learn who is the son of perdition. Biblical passages are given to reveal if Judas or the antichrist is the son of perdition.

www.neverthirsty.org

So you then do not believe in a coming Antichrist? or the final battle of Armageddon or anything to do with the beast or the mark of the beast?
Or the lying wonders, false miracles of Satan?

 

[Davidpt]

2 Thess and Zech 14 are describing the same event in time, the return of Christ. IT most definitely has bearing.

I can't make sense out of how Amils interpret some or all of Zechariah 14. Their interpretations don't even remotely resemble what the text is stating. How in the world can those that remain of the nations that came against Jerusalem possibly go up from year to year in a single day? Or how in the world can those that remain of the nations that came against Jerusalem possibly go up from year to year if you have them in the LOF instead?

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year---And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.


None of these can be meaning any of these in verse 12---And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

These in verse 12 are not left of all nations which came against Jerusalem. While these in verse 16 are. How can you or anyone for that matter, not see that? It plainly says so in verse 16.

These in verse 12 cannot go up from year to year, obviously. They are no longer among the living as of verse 12. These in verse 16 can go up from year to year because they are still among the living. But if they don't go up from year to year, upon them shall be no rain.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


There couldn't possibly be anything recorded in Zechariah 14 that is meaning after 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. IOW, once 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, Zechariah 14:17 will no longer be applicable. No one is going to be threatened all throughout eternity with no rain if they refuse to come up. Zechariah 14:16-17 can't even be meaning after satan's little season. And what precedes his little season? The millennium of course. Therefore, verses 16 and 17 have to be meaning before satan's little season. Therefore, that equals Premil not Amil. So, IOW, nothing in verse 16 and 17 can possibly fit this age, meaning before Christ returns. It can only fit an age after Christ has returned. Keeping in mind, those in verse 16 then have to go up from year to year, or on them will be no rain. And they do this before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, not after it is fulfilled. And that they can't go up from year to year in a single day, nor can they do that if they are in the LOF instead.

Believe what you will, though. I'll just stick to plain ole common sense in this case, that verse 16-17 is meaning before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, and that they can't go up from year to year in a single day, nor can they do that if they are in the LOF instead.

I don't know what any of this might look like when being fulfilled, all I know is, verse 16-17 is meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled, and is meaning after Christ has bodily returned. We then have to deal with this going up from year to year post the 2nd coming, yet prior to 1 Corinthians 15:28 being fulfilled.

 

[MA2444]

If they have no life, they can't come up to Jerusalem.

That's how I understand it also. When Jesus comes for His second coming, He brings the Saints with Him (all who were Raptured and transformed into resurrection body's and Jesus sets up His Millenial reign...and there will be humans on the earth at that time that have the Adamic nature.

You know how Humans are, lol. We breed like Rabbits! And for 1000 years the humans born to woman on earth still have to accept Christ as their Lord and Savior. Some people will choose death instead of life. So there prolly will be some crime on earth during the millenium, but prolly at a miniscule rate because it says that He will rule the nations with a rod of iron!

 

[Scott Downey]

I can't make sense out of how Amils interpret some or all of Zechariah 14. Their interpretations don't even remotely resemble what the text is stating. How in the world can those that remain of the nations that came against Jerusalem possibly go up from year to year in a single day? Or how in the world can those that remain of the nations that came against Jerusalem possibly go up from year to year if you have them in the LOF instead?

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year---And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.


None of these can be meaning any of these in verse 12---And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

These in verse 12 are not left of all nations which came against Jerusalem. While these in verse 16 are. How can you or anyone for that matter, not see that? It plainly says so in verse 16.

These in verse 12 cannot go up from year to year, obviously. They are no longer among the living as of verse 12. These in verse 16 can go up from year to year because they are still among the living. But if they don't go up from year to year, upon then shall be no rain.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


There couldn't possibly be anything recorded in Zechariah 14 that is meaning after 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. IOW, once 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, Zechariah 14:17 will no longer be applicable. No one is going to be threatened all throughout eternity with no rain if they refuse to come up. Zechariah 14:16-17 can't even be meaning after satan's little season. And what precedes his little season? The millennium of course. Therefore, verses 16 and 17 have to be meaning before satan's little season. Therefore, that equals Premil not Amil. So, IOW, nothing in verse 16 and 17 can possibly fit this age, meaning before Christ returns. It can only fit an age after Christ has returned. Keeping in mind, those in verse 16 then have to go up from year to year, or on them will be no rain. And they do this before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, not after it is fulfilled. And that they can't go up from year to year in a single day, nor can they do that if they are in the LOF instead.

Believe what you will, though. I'll just stick to plain ole common sense in this case, that verse 16-17 is meaning before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, and that they can't go up from year to year in a single day, nor can they do that if they are in the LOF instead.

I don't know what any of this might look like when being fulfilled, all I know is, verse 16-17 is meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled, and is meaning after Christ has bodily returned. We then have to deal with this going up from year to year post the 2nd coming, yet prior to 1 Corinthians 15:28 being fulfilled.

Having no rain is meaning they have no living water from God to survive to have eternal life, they are eternally separated from Him. If you believe Zech 14 is about the return of Christ and 2 Thess 1 is about the return of Christ, then the one that you need to care about is the latest teaching given, which is the one in Paul's letters.

You can find other fanciful scriptures in the OT too. But the NC is our teaching for today to the church. You can't fully reconcile one with the other, so which one will you follow? Which one does God want you to put as sound doctrine? That would be the New Covenant scriptures.
That is my view of this as a plain old common sense approach.

 

[Scott Downey]

In my thinking is the same problem with Ezekiel's temple. There is no such teaching in the NC about animal sacrifices for sin starting again.

Totally not taught by Christ or the apostles.
But pre-millennials will insist that it will happen with a rebuilt 3rd Jewish temple.
It is the same kind of problem, misinterpreting scriptures.
Their is mentioned sin offering by sacrificing a bull. And by animal sacrifices of burnt and peace offering will God then accept you.

None of this is New Covenant teaching of Christ, so it is a false teaching they believe.

Ezekiel 43

Consecrating the Altar​

18 And He said to me, “Son of man, thus says the Lord God: ‘These are the ordinances for the altar on the day when it is made, for sacrificing burnt offerings on it, and for sprinkling blood on it. 19 You shall give a young bull for a sin offering to the priests, the Levites, who are of the seed of Zadok, who approach Me to minister to Me,’ says the Lord God. 20 ‘You shall take some of its blood and put it on the four horns of the altar, on the four corners of the ledge, and on the rim around it; thus you shall cleanse it and make atonement for it. 21 Then you shall also take the bull of the sin offering, and burn it in the appointed place of the [j]temple, outside the sanctuary. 22 On the second day you shall offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they cleansed it with the bull. 23 When you have finished cleansing it, you shall offer a young bull without blemish, and a ram from the flock without blemish. 24 When you offer them before the Lord, the priests shall throw salt on them, and they will offer them up as a burnt offering to the Lord. 25 Every day for seven days you shall prepare a goat for a sin offering; they shall also prepare a young bull and a ram from the flock, both without blemish. 26 Seven days they shall make atonement for the altar and purify it, and so [k]consecrate [l]it. 27 When these days are over it shall be, on the eighth day and thereafter, that the priests shall offer your burnt offerings and your peace offerings on the altar; and I will accept you,’ says the Lord God.”

 

[Scott Downey]

The only thing that makes sense is Ezekiel's temple is Herod's temple, the 2nd temple. But the pre-mills insist it is the coming 3rd temple.
Personally I view this as a heresy, a turning away from Christ back to a covenant that God destroyed and is no longer in effect. It is definitely an antichrist doctrine.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Like I said, it is not people who Satan sits in here.

Son of perdition — Is the son of pedition Judas or the Antichrist?

Learn who is the son of perdition. Biblical passages are given to reveal if Judas or the antichrist is the son of perdition.

www.neverthirsty.org

So you then do not believe in a coming Antichrist?

No, I do not. Did you read my post? I explained what I believe there.

If you look up the term antichrist in scripture you should find that there is never any reference to an individual Antichrist. Instead, there are many antichrists and anyone who denies Christ is an antichrist (1 John 2:22).

or the final battle of Armageddon or anything to do with the beast or the mark of the beast?
Or the lying wonders, false miracles of Satan?

Why would I not believe in things that are clearly written about in Revelation? That would be like saying I don't believe the verses which speak of those things. Now, I don't take that all literally if that's what you mean. Is that what you're asking, whether I take those things literally or not? It's unusual for an Amillennialist to also be a futurist and take all those things literally.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I can't make sense out of how Amils interpret some or all of Zechariah 14.

The feeling is mutual about how you interpret some of it. I don't know how you interpret all of it because you've never said exactly how you interpret Zechariah 14:16-21. I know you don't take it literally to be talking about literally keeping the feast of tabernacles, which would involve performing animal sacrifices, but at the same time I don't know how you do interpret that passage.

Their interpretations don't even remotely resemble what the text is stating. How in the world can those that remain of the nations that came against Jerusalem possibly go up from year to year in a single day? Or how in the world can those that remain of the nations that came against Jerusalem possibly go up from year to year if you have them in the LOF instead?

So, you take the going up to Jerusalem from year to year literally. To be consistent then, you should also believe that they are required to go up to Jerusalem year to year to literally keep the feast of tabernacles. But, I know from what you've said before, that you don't take that part literally. So, why are you so inconsistent with your interpretation? Why take it literally when it talks about going up to Jerusalem, but not take it literally when it says they are to go up there to keep the feast of tabernacles?

And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year---And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.


None of these can be meaning any of these in verse 12---And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

These in verse 12 are not left of all nations which came against Jerusalem. While these in verse 16 are. How can you or anyone for that matter, not see that? It plainly says so in verse 16.

And, for the millionth time, you've made another straw man argument. Who said that those described in verse 11 are any of those who are described in verse 12? No one. So, who are you even talking about here who supposedly believes that?

These in verse 12 cannot go up from year to year, obviously. They are no longer among the living as of verse 12.

Obviously. So, again, who says otherwise? No one. So, what is your point here? You're wasting your time yet again making a straw man argument.

These in verse 16 can go up from year to year because they are still among the living. But if they don't go up from year to year, upon them shall be no rain.

1 Corinthians 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


There couldn't possibly be anything recorded in Zechariah 14 that is meaning after 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled. IOW, once 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, Zechariah 14:17 will no longer be applicable.

Who says otherwise?

No one is going to be threatened all throughout eternity with no rain if they refuse to come up. Zechariah 14:16-17 can't even be meaning after satan's little season.

Who is saying that Zechariah 14:16-17 occurs after Satan's little season?

And what precedes his little season? The millennium of course. Therefore, verses 16 and 17 have to be meaning before satan's little season. Therefore, that equals Premil not Amil.

What? Amils don't even interpret that the same way you do, so how can you say that passage supports Premil and not Amil? Only in your mind. I will address a major flaw in your understanding of Zechariah 14:16-17 at the end of this post.

So, IOW, nothing in verse 16 and 17 can possibly fit this age, meaning before Christ returns. It can only fit an age after Christ has returned.

Why do you say that? I see no basis for what you are claiming here.

Keeping in mind, those in verse 16 then have to go up from year to year, or on them will be no rain. And they do this before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, not after it is fulfilled. And that they can't go up from year to year in a single day, nor can they do that if they are in the LOF instead.

Believe what you will, though. I'll just stick to plain ole common sense in this case, that verse 16-17 is meaning before 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled, and that they can't go up from year to year in a single day, nor can they do that if they are in the LOF instead.

Who says that Zechariah 14:16-17 is fulfilled after 1 Corinthians 15:28 is fulfilled? No one. I can't understand why you do this. You're not arguing against what Amils believe.

I don't know what any of this might look like when being fulfilled

Yet, you somehow are an expert on Zechariah 14. Okay then.

, all I know is, verse 16-17 is meaning after verse 12 is fulfilled, and is meaning after Christ has bodily returned.

You don't know that at all.

We then have to deal with this going up from year to year post the 2nd coming, yet prior to 1 Corinthians 15:28 being fulfilled.

Why would people need to go up to Jerusalem to worship God year to year after the 2nd coming when Jesus said this long ago...

Zechariah 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.

You need to consider ALL scripture when interpreting Zechariah 14 so that you don't interpret Zechariah 14 in such a way that contradicts other scripture. You know most other Premills do that when they interpret Zechariah 14 to be saying that animal sacrifices will be reinstated, so you know enough to not agree with them about that. But, there's one other thing that isn't possible in the future besides animal sacrifices and that's the idea of people having to go to Jeruslaem to worship God. That contradicts what Jesus taught here...

John 4:19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So, you believe that despite God making it so that people no longer had to go to Jerusalem to worship Him and instead required people to worship Him in spirit and in truth, He's going to reverse course in the future and make people go to Jerusalem to worship Him again? How does that make any sense? That doesn't make any more sense than someone thinking He's going to require animal sacrifices again.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

It depends on what the Bible means by last day doesn't it?

Of course.

I don't agree with the Amillennial position that the Second Advent marks the last day.

Yeah, I gathered that.

The Last Day is described in Revelation 20:11-15, which comes after the Millennial period and the destruction of Satan.

I agree that the last day "comes after the Millennial period and the destruction of Satan". When you had asked what you were agreeing with WPM about, this is it.

 

[WPM]

Jesus will be on earth during the millennium, so the second coming will come first.

Where does it show that in Rev 20?

 

[WPM]

revelations.

He comes at the end after the day of the lord or his wrath is completed,. He binds satan for 1000 years. and sets up his kingdom.

Not hard to understand

Not so. All the wicked are destroyed at the second coming in Revelation 19 - all flesh. There are no wicked left to overrun your supposed future millennium.

 

[WPM]

Malachi discusses the disposition of Israel, not the entire world.

Typical Premil response. They cannot take any Scripture literally. That is because it exposes there extra-biblical doctrine. They have to spiritualize it away to mean nothing.

Malachi 4:1 says, “For behold, the day is coming, burning like an oven, and all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up.”

Amils take this literal! This is talking about "all who do wickedly" There are no exceptions. There are no survivors. This is complete, wholesale, and total destruction - for those left behind.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

2 Thess and Zech 14 are describing the same event in time, the return of Christ. IT most definitely has bearing.

Zech is describing the events AFTER the return of Christ.

either way. they BOTH must come true for BOTH prophecies to be fulfilled..

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Having no rain is meaning they have no living water from God to survive to have eternal life, they are eternally separated from Him.

No it does not

it means God punished them so their lands have no water

If you believe Zech 14 is about the return of Christ and 2 Thess 1 is about the return of Christ, then the one that you need to care about is the latest teaching given, which is the one in Paul's letters.

You can find other fanciful scriptures in the OT too. But the NC is our teaching for today to the church. You can't fully reconcile one with the other, so which one will you follow? Which one does God want you to put as sound doctrine? That would be the New Covenant scriptures.
That is my view of this as a plain old common sense approach.

You do not take prophecy as a symbol or make it appear to have come true to make you belief fit..

You force your belief to fit the prophecy.

Jesus was not a parable. he fulfilled most prophecies about him literally. He will fulfill the rest of them as he did the first. by literally doing every last one of them.