Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[face2face]

The angels have their own image and design. You speculate but the scriptures don't say no or yes.

We are in their image... they predate us. I could show you from the text but I sense the "common" part of sense is missing a lot of late. Jesus is emphatic we shall be like them...!

 

[ProDeo]

The one that agrees with the entirety of Scripture.....did Jesus want equality with God, or did he act as a “servant” of his God and Father? (Acts 4:27)

That's no good logic, Jesus was many things, He indeed came to serve but He also said - I and the Father are one. Both are true. And so IMO we should every word He said about Himself taken into consideration, likewise all the things what the OT and NT said about Him. Only then we can make up our mind. It's always and/and, without exception, the complete picture. Act 4:27 has to fit with all of the Scripture and one isolated text of Acts has to fit in the total picture.

We still have to ascertain why God needed to be obedient to God if the trinity is correct....

Let's focus on Christ divinity -- I and the Father are one -- We have God the Father, a distinct personality and God the Son, also a distinct personality, they are not the same and the Father is greater than the Son.

One more argument in favor for Christ divinity, when the devil and his angels rebelled God took action, we don't know what exactly but we may assume the devil and his angels did not like the message and the devil -- doing what he always does -- started to accuse God that He is unloving, non forgiving, unjust and more of such and all the heavenly host heard the (false) accusations. But even if nothing of that happened God wanted to show the heavenly audience anyway that He is loving, forgiving, just and more.

And so it's not only about us, God also wanted to show the heavenly host who remained faithful that the devil deserves the Lake of Fire and He showed His love by sacrificing the most precious He had, a part of Him Self to die here on Earth to take away any doubt the heavenly host might have had, as Jesus said - Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.

Now notice the similarities with Jesus when God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac -

1. Abraham (the father) and Isaac, the long awaited promised son (Jesus).
2. The supernatural pregnancy of Sara at old age (Mary).
3. Abraham (living somewhere in Iraq) had to travel three days.
4. The place God had directed him after those 3 days was mount Moria, that is Jerusalem.
5. On that same place God the Son would be crucified 2000 years later.
6. Isaac (the son) had to carry all the wood (cross) when climbing mount Moria.
7. When Abraham (the father) lift up the knife to kill Isaac (the son) God stopped him.

God did not want human sacrifice, he hates it -

Deut 12:31 You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the LORD hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.

Deut - 18:10 There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer.

So why did God wanted Jesus to sacrifice Himself when it's against His own Laws?

Because Christ was a divine sacrifice, God the Father scarified God the Son.

I am sorry Aunty, I can not complete your whole post, this is already much too long and I am short of time.

That cannot be if the trinity is true. All three “persons” of the trinity are equally “God”.
The Bible says that Jesus is subject to the Father which doesn’t make him equal. (1 Cor 11:3)

If the Father is greater than the son, which many trinitarians insist that he was 100% human whilst being 100% God.....have never taken a maths class....no scripture presents the son on an equal level with the Father....not a one.

Now, I need to pick you up here..... Regarding Jesus’ sacrifice of himself as a lamb, the apostle Peter wrote: “You were delivered . . . with precious blood, like that of an unblemished and spotless lamb, even Christ’s. True, he was foreknown before the founding [Greek, katabolé] of the world, but he was made manifest at the end of the times for the sake of you.” (1 Peter 1:18-20)

The “founding of the world” was not the creation of the planet, but the founding of the world of sinful mankind....this is logical because Jesus was not required to sacrifice his life until mankind was overtaken by sin. As a free willed human Adam made choices that threw all of his children under the bus....inheriting sin and death as a consequence of his decision to partake of the fruit that was denied to humankind.

If Adam had chosen differently, then a different outcome would have resulted. God did not plan the fall, but had contingencies ready for all eventualities. He did not foreordain individuals, but classes of people who would be employed to fulfill his purpose. Even ones of the elect can fall away because they have free will.

That “the founding of the world” (kósmos) must be reckoned as having taken place after man’s fall, Jesus indicated when he said to the Jewish leaders who were bent on killing him......
“You are witnesses of the deeds of your forefathers and yet you give consent to them, because these killed the prophets but you are building their tombs. On this account the wisdom of God also said, ‘I will send forth to them prophets and apostles, and they will kill and persecute some of them, so that the blood of all the prophets spilled from the founding of the world may be required from this generation, from the blood of Abel down to the blood of Zechariah, who was slain between the altar and the house [temple].’” (Luke 11:48-51)

Jesus there shows that the spilling of the blood of all the prophets from “the founding of the world” began with Abel. Consequently Abel lived at the “founding of the world”.....being the second child of Adam and his wife, sin was already at work when Cain killed his brother in a premeditated act of murder.

How are the Father and son “one”......and where is the supposedly equal third party?
What did Jesus mean when he said in John 17:20-22...
“ I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word, 21  so that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, so that the world may believe that you sent me. 22  I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one.”

This is unity of thought and purpose....otherwise the disciples are all “God” as well.

If you are going to promote a trinity, can you have your own personal version of it? Is there such a thing as a binity?
If Jesus is God, what is the Holy Spirit?.....who barely rates a mention as part of the threesome.


What parts? I am open to discussing them...

Neither.....I am an avid Bible student who is a stickler for detail.....they all have to fit the big picture....
Do you have one? Why are we here? What was God’s intention for creating human beings in his image and likeness and putting them on this planet in the first place?

I think that was meant to be Unitarian but Jehovah’s Witnesses are not Unitarians.....we do not support an “all are saved” theology because Jesus as our apppinted judge, will send the “goats” to “the lake of fire”, which we believe is a symbol for everlasting death. We do not believe in life after death, with an immortal soul flitting off to some other destination, nor do we subscribe to a hell of eternal conscious torment.
That is not the God we worship.

 

[face2face]

7. When Abraham (the father) lift up the knife to kill Isaac (the son) God stopped him.

God did not want human sacrifice, he hates it -

Genesis 22:8, Abraham says, "God will provide for Himself the lamb for the burnt offering, my son."

 

[Ritajanice]

Bible, King James Version​

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Genesis​

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Previous Chapter​

Gen.22​

[1] And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
[2] And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.
[3] And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
[4] Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
[5] And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you,
[6] And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.
[7] And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?
[8] And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
[9] And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.
[10] And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.
[11] And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
[12] And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.
[13] And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.
[14] And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
[15] And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
[16] And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
[17] That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
[18] And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
[19] So Abraham returned unto his young men, and they rose up and went together to Beer-sheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beer-sheba.
[20] And it came to pass after these things, that it was told Abraham, saying, Behold, Milcah, she hath also born children unto thy brother Nahor;
[21] Huz his firstborn, and Buz his brother, and Kemuel the father of Aram,
[22] And Chesed, and Hazo, and Pildash, and Jidlaph, and Bethuel.
[23] And Bethuel begat Rebekah: these eight Milcah did bear to Nahor, Abraham's brother.
[24] And his concubine, whose name was Reumah, she bare also Tebah, and Gaham, and Thahash, and Maachah.

 

[face2face]

[11] And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.
[12] And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Abraham and Isaac serve as a prophetic picture of God's work with His Son, illustrating the true meaning of sacrifice. Just as Isaac was offered, Christ also presented himself without blemish to God.

Rita, you will notice how Isaac allowed his father to bind him.

Ephesians 5:2:
"And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God."

Hebrews 9:14:
"how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God."

Can you see what's important about Isaac and Jesus?

F2F

 

[face2face]

Pro is correct that God abhors human sacrifices, like those offered to Molech. However, this form of sacrifice by Isaac and Jesus is a delight to Him.

There are two key elements required for the offering of a burnt offering. First, it must be offered freely and willingly (Lev. 1:3). Similarly, Christ came to do the will of the Father and, in perfect obedience, voluntarily laid down His life (John 10:17-18; Phil. 2:5-8). Second, the offering must be complete, with nothing held back (Lev. 1:9). Christ held nothing back but gave his entire being to the Father. Likewise, we are called to give our whole lives in service to Him (Rom. 12:1).

F2F

 

[face2face]

@Ritajanice

Genesis 22:7 (ESV) says: "And Isaac said to his father Abraham, 'My father!' And he said, 'Here I am, my son.' He said, 'Behold, the fire and the wood, but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?'"

Similarly, Christ spake unto Yahweh and said "Abba Father" (Mark 14:36). God responded in approval, for Christ was "heard in that he feared" (Heb. 5:7).

I could do this all night on Genesis 22 - one of the most incredible chapters in the Bible.

F2F

 

[Aunty Jane]

"some shall depart from the faith...."

And history shows us who did…..the very church who claimed Jesus as their Lord, even though they never did a single thing he told them to….just like Israel, who also got caught up in the traditions of men so that their worship was unacceptable to the God they claimed to worship. (Matt 15:7-9) Satan does not change his tactics….

2 Chronichles 13:10
“As for us, the LORD is our God, and we have not forsaken him."

Micah 4:5
For all people walk each in the name of his god, But we will walk in the name of the LORD our God Forever and ever.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we exist.

You quote these Scriptures without knowledge of what they are actually saying….

The two scriptures quoted from the OT, if you look these up in the Jewish Tanakh, you will see who “the LORD“ is in those verses….יְהֹוָ֥ה…Yahweh.
Jesus is never called Yahweh in any verse of Scripture.

8 I am the Lord, that is My Name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to the graven images.

חאֲנִ֥י יְהֹוָ֖ה ה֣וּא שְׁמִ֑י וּכְבוֹדִי֙ לְאַחֵ֣ר לֹֽא־אֶתֵּ֔ן וּתְהִלָּתִ֖י לַפְּסִילִֽים:

5 For all peoples shall go, each one in the name of his god, but we will go in the name of the Lord, our God, forever and ever.

הכִּי כָּל־הָ֣עַמִּ֔ים יֵֽלְכ֕וּ אִ֖ישׁ בְּשֵׁ֣ם אֱלֹהָ֑יו וַֽאֲנַ֗חְנוּ נֵלֵ֛ךְ בְּשֵֽׁם־יְהֹוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵ֖ינוּ לְעוֹלָ֥ם וָעֶֽד:

And there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we exist.

Sorry, but you are wrong in assuming that calling Jesus… “Lord“….is calling him “God”. …If you had quoted that whole scripture you would see that “there is to us ONE GOD THE FATHER” AND there is “one Lord Jesus Christ”…..”there are many gods and many lords”, (1 Cor 8:5-6) according to the apostle Paul.

“Lord” is a title, not a name.…it is the English equivalent of calling someone in authority “Sir”.
Twisting scripture is necessary to support many doctrinal lies.
Who taught the ones who taught you?

How can a mere human hold together all the atoms in the Universe as well as all of Creation?

Jesus was only a human for 33 years….he was a powerful spirit being for unknown eons before he willingly came to earth as a human sacrifice….and when he returned to heaven, he resumed his position of favor at God’s right hand. Even in heaven, his Father was still his “God”. (Rev 3:12)

Jesus is “the beginning of God’s creation”. (Rev 3:14)…he was “before all things”…”the firstborn of ALL. creation”. (Col 1:15) Jesus had a beginning. Anyone who is “begotten” needs a ‘begetter’ who existed before them and caused their existence.

Unless HE is ELOHIM of Genesis = "Let Us make man in Our image according to Our likeness"

Yes, he is the “us“ and “our” in Genesis 1:26…..but he is not, and is never once called “the Creator”.

Creation came “through” the son, but not from him. (Col 1:15-17; John 1:2-3)
You obviously do not understand agency.

The Lord Says: "I am the Lord, that is My name; And My glory I will not give to another" = Isaiah 42:8

God says: "I will not give My glory to another." = Isaiah 48:11

Again you have no idea what these scriptures are saying….
”The LORD” in all OT scripture is “יְהֹוָ֥ה” YAHWEH…..not Jesus.

God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom He also made the world.

Do you see what this says? In the last days of the Jewish system, God sent his son, whereas in ancient times he spoke by his prophets….but he was “appointed heir of all things”….can God inherit anything?….or can he appoint himself as an heir?…and it says that the world was created “through” him. This is agency….

And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power.

”the radiance of his glory and the exact representation of his nature”…where is that saying that he is God?
What is a “representation”? What are you reading into these verses…? Certainly not what others are reading.

What power does Jesus have that does not come from his God and Father? Even as a human, he was not a powerful being until God’s spirit was given to him after his baptism.

Did God lie???

No, but satan does, and passes his lies off as truth….have you fallen for them?

 

[Aunty Jane]

I wish a trinitarian would explain, that if Jesus was God, then why did he cry out to his Father per scripture above, also he cried out to his Father when he was dying on the cross.?

They cannot explain Ritajanice…..nor can they explain how an immortal God can die…..or how mere mortals can kill God.

The scripture you quoted first shows that God’s will and Jesus’ will could be different. How can that be possible if they are one and the same Being?

Matthew 27:45-47 (also Mark 15:33-34)says: “Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani? ' that is, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Jesus was quoting OT scripture….Psalm 22:1 of King David.
Do you know why Jesus said these words?
Jesus, for the first time, felt his Father withdraw from him in order to allow his death. It is Christ’s death that pays the redemption price for mankind….unless he withdrew his spirit, Jesus would not have died.

Three days later his God resurrected him as he promised, and after 40 days spent strengthening his apostles for the tough times ahead, he return to heaven where he was to prepare a place for his elect to follow later.

 

[Ritajanice]

Abraham and Isaac serve as a prophetic picture of God's work with His Son, illustrating the true meaning of sacrifice. Just as Isaac was offered, Christ also presented himself without blemish to God.

Rita, you will notice how Isaac allowed his father to bind him.

I noticed how much Abraham loved God, so much so, that he was willing to sleigh his only Son.

Would I do that...Nope!...

Ephesians 5:2:
"And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God."

Hebrews 9:14:
"how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God."

Our conscience can only be purified by the Spirit, that’s why we must be a child of God/ spirit children.

Can you see what's important about Isaac and Jesus?

F2F

That’s your understanding of scripture.

Personally, I have no idea or understand what you post ,you never give any Living testimony , you just post scripture......never once have I heard you Praise God.....my understanding comes from the Spirit who indwells me, I’ve been Born Of The Spirit, therefore have already been redeemed by the blood of Jesus, all my sins have been forgiven the moment the Spirit gave birth to my spirit...” Spirit gives birth to spirit “..

I’m in Christ and he in me,,,

They profess to have been redeemed by the Lamb’s blood. Frankly, the blood of Jesus does many things for us:

• The blood redeems – Revelation 5:9, Colossians 1:14
• The blood purchases – Acts 20:28
• The blood washes – Revelation 1:5
• The blood justifies – Romans 5:9
• The blood saves – Romans 5:9
• The blood forgives – Ephesians 1:7
• The blood draws nigh – Ephesians 2:13
• The blood purges – Hebrews 9:14
• The blood cleanses – 1 John 1:7

Why was Jesus blood Pure,Holy and without sin?

By the way, if I never read a Bible in my life again,I know my spirit is Born Again.....the Bible is NOT the Living Holy Spirit.

 

[Ritajanice]

Jesus, for the first time, felt his Father withdraw from him in order to allow his death

I can 100% relate to Jesus here....God has never withdrawn from my spirit, but I know what it’s like to be alienated from his Spirit as a non believer, “ Hell on earth” it was, how I got through those 33 odd years without God, I do not know.....I believe his hand had been on me all those years as a non believer, he was drawing me to Jesus through those 30 odds years of trauma and suffering.

That’s why when I became Born Again it blew my mind, I had/ have never known Love like it...completely overwhelmed my spirit, I will always be an advocate for God on how he took me out of Hell on earth, into his Kingdom and under his wings...that’s my way of explaining it..my testimony/ belief.....my life has been amazingly transformed, it’s been no easy path though, so much healing , and adversary along the way...still I focus my eyes, ears and heart on my Father God...

Is Jesus our Brother?

 

[Johann]

Yes, he is the “us“ and “our” in Genesis 1:26…..but he is not, and is never once called “the Creator”.

All major religions1 and cultic groups2 reject the doctrine of deity of Christ.

Some of these objections are a result of rationalism (“reason” is supreme, not God) over revelation or a misunderstanding of what the doctrine teaches. Another more common objection results from revisionist history, which claims that Christ’s deity was invented at the Council of Nicaea in the 4th century3 and not something believed by the early church.4

The reason Christians believe in the deity of Jesus is that we are forced to come to this conclusion by the clear teaching of Scripture. It is important to get Jesus’ identity because if we deny the deity of Jesus then we do not have the Father (1 John 2:23; cf. John 5:23). Here are 10 Scriptural reasons for the deity of Jesus.

1: The Bible Teaches That There Is One True God

Jesus’ divinity is part of the doctrine of the Trinity.

This is important to understand because many objectors to the deity of Jesus misunderstand what Christians believe about the Trinity. Christians believe what the Bible teaches—that there is only one true and living God (Deuteronomy 6:4; cf. 1 Corinthians 8:6).

However, we must not confuse monotheism (belief in one God) with Unitarianism (the belief that the being of God is shared by one person). Jesus’ divinity is part of the doctrine of the Trinity, which states that within the one Being that is God, there exists eternally three co-equal and co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Each is a distinct person, yet each is identified as God: the Father (1 Corinthians 8:6), the Son (John 1:1–3; Romans 9:5), and the Spirit (Acts 5:3–4). We must also remember that it wasn’t the Father or the Spirit who became incarnate; it was the Son (John 1:14) and he was born under the Law (Galatians 4:4). This is why, in his humanity, Jesus prays to the Father (Matthew 26:39, 42).5

The doctrine of the Trinity is revealed between the Old and New Testaments through the incarnation of Jesus and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit.6 God did not change between the Old and New Testaments, being a Unitarian God in the Old and a Trinitarian God in the New. God has always been Triune, but the specific revelation of the divinity of Jesus takes place in the New Testament.7

2: The Bible Teaches That Jesus Pre-Existed Before The World Was
The New Testament in several passages clearly teaches that Jesus existed in eternity past before his birth in Bethlehem.

Genesis 1:1 tells us, “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” In John 1:1 we read the same words, “In the beginning.”8 John informs us in John 1:1 that in the beginning was the Word (logos) and that the Word was not only with God but was God. This Word is the one who brought all things into being at creation (John 1:3). John 1:1 teaches that the Word is eternal, the Word has had an eternal relationship with the Father, and the Word as to His nature is deity.

In his prayer in John 17:3–5 Jesus both refers to his pre-existence and uses terminology that can only be used about deity:

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

To have eternal life is to know two persons: both the Father and Jesus (see John 14:6-7; 16:3). But notice, Jesus is distinguished from the Father because Jesus is the one speaking to the Father. The personal pronouns (me, your, you) clearly show that this is one person speaking to another. In this conversation, the Son is speaking of the glory he has shared with the Father before the world was; the words “in your own presence” refer to their sharing of divine glory.9 John 17:3–5 is not an example of the “human side” praying to the “divine side” but of a divine, yet incarnate (John 1:14) person, the Son, communicating with a divine, but non-incarnate person, the Father in heaven.

Paul’s words in Philippians 2:5–8 teach not only the deity of Jesus but also the distinct personhood of the Son prior to his incarnation.10 In this passage, Paul exhorts the Philippians to have the same attitude as Christ Jesus who “existed in the form of God.”11 These words come before the verbs emptied, taking, and becoming and point to the pre-existence of the one “existing in the form of God.”12 Moreover, Jesus did not regard13 the equality he had with God the Father, in eternity past, something to be held on to. Instead he “made himself nothing”14 by doing two things: taking the form of a bond-servant and being made in the likeness of men.15 Having entered into human existence he humbled himself to death on the Cross. Because of this, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord (Philippians 2:10–11); it is only God who is to be worshipped as Lord (see Isaiah 45:23).

3: Jesus Is Creator Not Creature

Jehovah’s Witnesses believe Paul’s statement in Colossians 1:15 that the “firstborn of all creation” teaches that Jesus was a created being. However, the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ teaching resembles the view of the ancient Colossian heresy that Paul had to combat.

The Colossian false teachers advocated the idea that Jesus was the first of many other created mediators between God and men. By using the specific Greek word prōtotokos, “firstborn,” Paul rules out the idea of Jesus as a created being. “Firstborn” does not mean “first created.”

Rather, Paul uses a term that was based on the ancient designation of the authority, or pre-eminence, metaphorically given to the firstborn (Genesis. 49:3–4; Exodus 4:22). In the same way, David, the youngest of Jesse, was named “firstborn” (Psalm 89:20–27) who ruled Israel. Manasseh was born to Joseph first, but Ephraim, his younger brother, was “firstborn” due to his position as given by Jacob/Israel (Genesis 48:13–20, Jeremiah 31:9).

By describing Jesus as the “firstborn over all creation,” Paul is saying that he is the absolute ruler over all creation.
Furthermore, if Paul had wanted to describe Jesus as a created being, he could have used the Greek word protoktistos, which means “first created.”16 So why didn’t he use it? Because Paul did not believe Jesus was created. By describing Jesus as the “firstborn over all creation,” Paul is saying that he is the absolute ruler over all creation.

In fact, the evidence that Jesus is supreme over all creation comes in Colossians 1:16. Here, Paul absolutely rules out the idea that Jesus is a created being because he presents Jesus as the Creator of the entire universe which exists by his creative power (John 1:1–3; Hebrews 1:2, 8–10). The reason Jesus can “create all things” is that “in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Colossians 2:9). The Greek word for “Godhead,” theotēs, refers to “the state of being God.”17 It is only God who can create (Isaiah 42:5, 44:24, 45:18).

4: Jesus Identifies Himself as Divine
At the Feast of Tabernacles/Booths in his encounter with the Pharisees (John 8:13), Jesus told them, “I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins” (John 8:24). The Jewish people reacted to Jesus’ statement by asking him, “Who are you?” (John 8:25).

Jesus told the Jews exactly who he is: “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am” (John 8:58). This “I am” (ego eimi) statement was Jesus’ clearest example of His proclamation, “I am Yahweh,” from its background in the book of Isaiah (Isaiah 41:4; 43:10–13, 25; 46:4; 48:12; cf. John 13:19).

These are the very words (ego eimi) ) that caused the Roman soldiers to fall to the ground after they came to arrest Jesus (John 18:6). Jesus’ explicit identification of himself with Yahweh of the Old Testament is why the Jewish leaders wanted to stone him for blasphemy (see John 5:18; 10:33).

5: The Apostles Identified Jesus as Divine
Both Jesus and his apostles identified him as divine. The Apostle Peter described Jesus as “our God and Savior” (2 Peter 1:1; cf. Titus 2:13) and called on believers to “honor Christ the Lord as holy” (1 Peter 3:15).18 Jesus’ own half-brother James, who was an unbeliever at first (John 7:5), described him as “the Lord of glory” (James 2:1; cf. 1 Corinthians 2:8; Psalm 24:7–8). What man or prophet could be described in this way? The Apostle John also attributed titles to Jesus that were used only of God by describing him as the “Alpha and Omega” and the “first and the last” (Revelation 22:13; 1:8, 17–18; cf. Isaiah 44:6).

The writer of the book of Hebrews also has insight into the identity of Jesus In Hebrews 1, the author identifies Jesus (the Son) as superior to any prophet (vv. 1–2), above the angels (v. 5), worthy of our worship (vv. 6–8; cf. Psalm 45:6–7), and the creator of all things who is unchangeable (vv. 2–3, 10; cf. Psalm 102:25). The author of Hebrews further states that Jesus is “seated at the right hand of the throne of God” (Hebrews 12:2; cf. Acts 2:30).

6: The Jewish Leaders Recognized Jesus’ Claim to Divinity
One of the clearest evidences of the deity of Jesus is the Jewish leaders’ reaction to Jesus’ words and actions. In Mark 2, Jesus not only heals a paralytic but also forgives his sins (Mark 2:5). This is the reason that the scribes cry blasphemy, for it is God alone who can forgive sins (Mark 2:7).19
will die in our sin (John 8:24).

J.

 

[Ritajanice]

Three days later his God resurrected him as he promised

Yes, just like we will have resurrected ,glorified bodies, like Jesus.

Also my spirit has been already resurrected, brought from dearth to life in Christ...my spirit is Alive in Christ...Praise God!

Ephesians 2

New International Version

​

Made Alive in Christ​

2 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh[a] and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christand seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved,through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

As wrangler also explains....knowledge of the word doesn’t save us from eternal damnation, only the Living Spirit can do that, my testimony/ belief.

 

[St. SteVen]

Aunty Jane said:
Jesus, for the first time, felt his Father withdraw from him in order to allow his death

I can 100% relate to Jesus here....God has never withdrawn from my spirit,

I think this is a common misunderstanding of what was happening at the crucifixion.
Father God did not turn His back on His only-begotten obedient Son.
Jesus was actually quoting Psalm 22:1 "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? ..."

But everyone listening knew the punchline found in verse 24.
"For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help." - Psalm 22:24 NIV

[

 

[Ritajanice]

Aunty Jane said:
Jesus, for the first time, felt his Father withdraw from him in order to allow his death

I think this is a common misunderstanding of what was happening at the crucifixion.
Father God did not turn His back on His only-begotten obedient Son.
Jesus was actually quoting Psalm 22:1 "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? ..."

But everyone listening knew the punchline found in verse 24.
"For he has not despised or scorned
the suffering of the afflicted one;
he has not hidden his face from him
but has listened to his cry for help." - Psalm 22:24 NIV

[

That’s your understanding of scripture...you weren’t there, no more than Aunty and I were.

We voiced what we believe, the same as you.

I know what it was like to be alienated from God, before I became Born Again.

“ Hell on earth “ it was.

Matthew 27:45-47 (also Mark 15:33-34)says: “Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani? ' that is, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Two more different interpretation of scripture.

Interpretations. This saying is taken by some as an abandonment of the Son by the Father. Another interpretation holds that at the moment when Jesus took upon himself the sins of humanity, the Father had to turn away from the Son because the Father is "of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong" (ESV)

 

[St. SteVen]

That’s your understanding of scripture...you weren’t there, no more than Aunty and I were.

The Bible footnote confirms my claim. Jesus was quoting Psalm 22:1.

Matthew 27:46 NIV
About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice,
“Eli, Eli,[a] lema sabachthani?” (which means
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[b]

Footnotes​

1. Matthew 27:46 Some manuscripts Eloi, Eloi
2. Matthew 27:46 Psalm 22:1

[

 

[Ritajanice]

The Bible footnote confirms my claim. Jesus was quoting Psalm 22:1.

Matthew 27:46 NIV
About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice,
“Eli, Eli,[a] lema sabachthani?” (which means
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).[b]

Footnotes​

1. Matthew 27:46 Some manuscripts Eloi, Eloi
2. Matthew 27:46 Psalm 22:1

[

No it doesn’t..

Matthew 27:45-47 (also Mark 15:33-34)says: “Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani? ' that is, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

Two more different interpretation of scripture.

Interpretations. This saying is taken by some as an abandonment of the Son by the Father. Another interpretation holds that at the moment when Jesus took upon himself the sins of humanity, the Father had to turn away from the Son because the Father is "of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong" (ESV)

 

[St. SteVen]

That’s your understanding of scripture...you weren’t there, no more than Aunty and I were.

God is omnipresent. He is everywhere. There is nowhere that He isn't.

[

 

[St. SteVen]

No it doesn’t..

Matthew 27:45-47 (also Mark 15:33-34)says: “Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land until the ninth hour. And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani? ' that is, 'My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?

So, you deny that Jesus was quoting Psalm 22?

Two more different interpretation of scripture.

Interpretations. This saying is taken by some as an abandonment of the Son by the Father. Another interpretation holds that at the moment when Jesus took upon himself the sins of humanity, the Father had to turn away from the Son because the Father is "of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong" (ESV)

Of course there are other interpretations.
Two of them say that God will turn His back on us, and one says he will never leave or forsake us. (Deuteronomy 31:6)

[

 

[Ritajanice]

God is omnipresent. He is everywhere. There is nowhere that He isn't.

[

You aren’t understanding what Jesus said,imo, when he said why have you forsaken me....Jesus was in the flesh when he died ..

What has Gods Spirit got to do with it?..being everywhere?

Jesus died like a human death?