Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Ritajanice]

So now you doubt the bodily resurrection?

1 Corinthians 15:13-15 NIV
If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God,
for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead.
But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised.

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I’m not interested in interacting with you, as you are twisting my words...there was Jesus resurrection...his human body that it was before he died, could not enter heaven.could it?
As it was a flesh body was it not?
It had to be a glorified body,,, anyway maybe @Aunty Jane can explain, she’s not confused when she posts....I’m getting more confused by the day, lol.

Stop twisting my words, then we may be able to discuss...

 

[Wrangler]

I would say where in the Bible does it say that man was created in the image of angels?

Angels are included in the meaning of Elohim. Who was God talking to when he said to make us? It could be the Angels.

 

[Ritajanice]

1 Corinthians 15:13-15 NIV
If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised.
14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God,
for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead.
But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised

The dead can’t be raised if Jesus hadn’t died and been resurrected.

My spirit has been raised from death to life...has yours?

My spirit is Alive in Christ’s he lives in my heart/ spirit.?

Yet it’s the Spirit who testifies with our spirit that we are the children of God.

So, is the Holy Spirit Christ Spirit as well ?..

 

[David in NJ]

All God's children are created being David - you're learning

Made from the dust of the earth.

Was the body for the Word made from two parents of dust?

 

[St. SteVen]

Angels are included in the meaning of Elohim. Who was God talking to when he said to make us? It could be the Angels.

Angels could have been present, but could they partner in the creation of humankind? (nope)

John 1:2-4 NIV
He was with God in the beginning.
3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.

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[Wrangler]

You obviously do not understand agency.

Agency cannot be a thing to trinitarianism.

 

[Wrangler]

the firstborn of ALL. creation”. (Col 1:15)

How could Jesus be the firstborn of all creation AND not be created, along with the rest of Creation?

 

[David in NJ]

Angels are included in the meaning of Elohim. Who was God talking to when he said to make us? It could be the Angels

TRUTH Fact #1 - Angels are created being that were created by the Word that was God = Colossians 1:16
For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

TRUTH Fact #2 - Angels are not included in the Elohim of Genesis chapter 1 = only THREE are included in Echad Elohim
In the beginning Elohim created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of Elohim was hovering over the face of the waters.
Then Elohim Said, “Let there be light”; and there was light = count to THREE

"Let Us, make man in Our image according to Our likeness" = Echad Elohim = count to THREE

TRUTH Fact #3 - GOSPEL = John 1:1-4 = count to THREE
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

 

[David in NJ]

And history shows us who did…..the very church who claimed Jesus as their Lord

History shows us RCC and Watchtower/jw = BFF

 

[Wrangler]

I focus my eyes, ears and heart on my Father God...

Is Jesus our Brother?

Yes, Jesus is our brother, which explains why he taught us to pray to God as he did, to our Father. Only siblings share a father.

Also, it is telling that Jesus did not teach us to pray to a trinitarian god. Why would that be?

 

[Ritajanice]

Short commentary.

The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Christ. Listen to Romans 8:9 & 10. Paul says, “You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.

 

[Wrangler]

Jesus was quoting Psalm 22:1.

Matthew 27:46 NIV
About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice,
“Eli, Eli,[a] lema sabachthani?” (which means
“My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

In Trinityland, God can have a God?! Right Mr Trinity (@face2face)?

More proof text Jesus is NOT God. (No verse states God the Father has a God).

 

[Ritajanice]

Yes, Jesus is our brother, which explains why he taught us to pray to God as he did, to our Father. Only siblings share a father.

Amen.

Also, it is telling that Jesus did not teach us to pray to a trinitarian god. Why would that be?

No idea?....I’m getting more confused, being on the fence, lol.

 

[Wrangler]

Angels could have been present, but could they partner in the creation of humankind? (nope)

Yes, God could have made the angels to then assist with creation. What are all these heavenly beings doing?

John 1:2-4 NIV
He This was with God in the beginning.

Houtos means this. This (God’s word) was with God in the beginning. Not the pronoun ‘he’ referring to a non-existent person.

Houtos Means Only "This" (John 6:60 & 1:2)

This is a rare exploration by me into foreign Languages. houtos is the Greek word in both verses. It means "this" in English. οὗτος - Wiktionary Determiner οὗτος • (hoûtos), f αὕτη (haútē), n τοῦτο (toûto) (medial demonstrative determiner and pronoun) this (of place) here in contrast with ὅδε...

www.christianityboard.com

It’s revealing how no trinitarian claim can hold up to scrutiny.

 

[RLT63]

I’m not interested in interacting with you, as you are twisting my words...there was Jesus resurrection...his human body that it was before he died, could not enter heaven.could it?
As it was a flesh body was it not?
It had to be a glorified body,,, anyway maybe @Aunty Jane can explain, she’s not confused when she posts....I’m getting more confused by the day, lol.

Stop twisting my words, then we may be able to discuss...

It had to be a glorified body.
Aunty Jane will tell you that Jesus was a spirit when he was resurrected and he had no body

 

[RLT63]

Angels are included in the meaning of Elohim. Who was God talking to when he said to make us? It could be the Angels.

It could be? It could be a squirrel.
It wasn't. He said "Let us make a man " us being the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit

 

[Wrangler]

Yes, Jesus is our brother, which explains why he taught us to pray to God as he did, to our Father. Only siblings share a father.

Also, it is telling that Jesus did not teach us to pray to a trinitarian god. Why would that be?

No idea?....I’m getting more confused, being on the fence, lol.

It’s simple. The trinity is an IDOL, manmade doctrine. It’s not like Scripture is silent on the nature of God so we are left to speculate where one conjecture is as good as another! Two Scriptural facts:

1. Jesus did NOT teach us to pray to a trinitarian god.
2. Jesus did teach us to pray to the only God of Scripture, who we relate to as Father.

The reason Jesus did not teach us to pray to a trinity God but to the Father alone is because the trinity is a false god. God the Father is the only true God of the Bible. Simple.

It’s so simple, even a trinitarian can figure it out.

 

[Wrangler]

It could be? It could be a squirrel.
It wasn't. He said "Let us make a man " us being the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit

Could be. But that is beyond what Scripture actually says. So, one speculation is as good as another. Certainly not definitive.

I’m not sure why it does not bother Trinitarians that they have to read into Unitarian text, their doctrine all the time.

 

[Ritajanice]

It had to be a glorified body.
Aunty Jane will tell you that Jesus was a spirit when he was resurrected and he had no body

Here is another commentary...

The body itself was resurrected—the very same body, but in a glorified state. The wounds from His crucifixion were still visible (John 20:27). He could be touched and handled—He was not merely an apparition or a phantom (Luke 24:39).

 

[Johann]

Houtos means this. This (God’s word) was with God in the beginning. Not the pronoun ‘he’ referring to a non-existent person.

How far will you go?

The Greek Word "Houtos" (οὗτος)
Houtos is a demonstrative pronoun that can mean "this" or "he," depending on the context. Its antecedent determines how it should be understood.

In John 1:1-2, the antecedent of houtos is ho logos (ὁ λόγος), which is grammatically masculine in Greek. Therefore, houtos takes a masculine form, and its most natural translation is "he" when referring to a person.

2. Contextual Evidence in John 1
John 1:1-2 introduces ho logos as both distinct from God ("the Word was with God") and as God ("the Word was God").

The personhood of logos is implied by the use of the preposition pros (πρὸς) in "with God" (pros ton Theon), which suggests relationality, something a non-personal concept like "word" would not exhibit.

John 1:3 states, "Through him (di' autou, a personal pronoun), all things were made." The use of autou (him) confirms that logos is understood as a person, not a mere abstract concept.

John 1:4 further identifies the logos as the source of life, a role that implies personal agency.

3. Consistency with Johannine Theology

Throughout the Gospel of John, logos is clearly identified with Jesus Christ, a person. For instance:

John 1:14: "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us" (ho logos sarx egeneto), explicitly identifying the logos as Jesus.

John 1:18: "No one has seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, has made Him known."
Translating houtos as "this" rather than "he" in John 1:2 disrupts the coherence of the prologue, which develops logos as a personal, divine agent who becomes incarnate.

4. Grammatical and Semantic Challenges

If houtos were translated as "this" (referring to "God's word" as a concept), the use of masculine pronouns (di' autou in John 1:3) would become incongruous. Concepts do not take personal pronouns in Greek.

Your argument ignores the broader linguistic pattern in which houtos often functions to emphasize a specific subject (here, logos as a person).

5. Early Church Understanding

Early Christians, including those who spoke Greek natively, universally interpreted logos as a reference to the preexistent Christ. This understanding shaped the doctrine of the Trinity.

The translation "he" reflects this historical and theological understanding, not a later theological imposition.

Conclusion
The claim that houtos in John 1:2-4 means "this" rather than "he" contradicts the grammatical structure, immediate context, and broader Johannine theology. The logos is clearly presented as a divine person who existed eternally with God and became incarnate in Jesus Christ.

J.