Exploring Trinitarian Logic

[Ritajanice]

Remember them “ getting personal “ days.....Lord I p

Sure, fry us

fry us...LOL.

 

[face2face]

Sure, fry us

How do you like your eggs?

 

[face2face]

Tonight, I am looking at Isaiah 6

Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.” Verse 6

8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”

Very interesting!

F2F

 

[ProDeo]

How do you like your eggs?

I prefer you fry and serve us french fries with sweet mayonnaise.

Yummy....

 

[ProDeo]

Tonight, I am looking at Isaiah 6

Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a live coal in his hand, which he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7 With it he touched my mouth and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away and your sin atoned for.” Verse 6

8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”

Very interesting!

F2F

When you quote don't stop in the middle of the story, when the answer to the question is given in the next verses, thus -

Jes 6:6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar.
Jes 6:7 And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”
Jes 6:8 And I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for us?” Then I [Isaiah] said, “Here I am! Send me.”
Jes 6:9 And he said, “Go, and say to this people: “‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’

 

[Marvelloustime]

Good Night @APAK , @Johann , @amigo de christo , @Taken ,@Marvelloustime , @Lizbeth , @ProDeo

Good morning. Another day closer to the coming of the LORD. Let the Lord be praised.

 

[Johann]

I genuinely feel sorry for you, Johann. You have an abundance of man-made teachings at your disposal, but they are utterly worthless.

Self deception.

Gal 6:1 Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught doing something wrong, you who are directed by the Ruach, restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness—looking closely at yourself so you are not tempted also.
Gal 6:2 Bear one another’s burdens, and in this way you fulfill the Torah of Messiah.
Gal 6:3 For if anyone thinks he is something when he is nothing, he is fooling himself.
Gal 6:4 Rather let each one examine his own work. Then he will have pride in himself alone and not in comparison to anyone else.
Gal 6:5 For each one will carry his own load.


Jas 1:19 Know this, my dear brothers and sisters: let every person be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger—
Jas 1:20 for human anger doesn’t produce the righteousness of God.
Jas 1:21 So put away all moral filth and excess of evil and receive with humility the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deluding yourselves.
Jas 1:23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man who looks at his natural face in a mirror—
Jas 1:24 for once he looks at himself and goes away, he immediately forgets what sort of person he was.
Jas 1:25 But the one who looks intently into the perfect Torah, the Torah that gives freedom, and continues in it, not becoming a hearer who forgets but a doer who acts—he shall be blessed in what he does.
Jas 1:26 If anyone thinks he is religious and yet does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person’s religion is futile.
Jas 1:27 Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.


Rev 3:14 To the angel of Messiah’s community in Laodicea write: “Thus says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Originator of God’s creation:
Rev 3:15 I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. Oh, that you were either cold or hot!
Rev 3:16 So because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to spew you out of My mouth.
Rev 3:17 For you say, ‘I am rich, I have made myself wealthy, and I need nothing.’ But you do not know that you are miserable and pitiable and poor and blind and naked.
Rev 3:18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may be rich, and white clothes so that you may dress yourself and so the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed, and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
Rev 3:19 Those whom I love, I rebuke and discipline. Therefore, be zealous and repent.

2Co 13:3 since you are demanding proof that Messiah is speaking through me. He is not weak toward you, but powerful among you.
2Co 13:4 For He was crucified in weakness, yet He lives through the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we shall live with Him by God’s power toward you.
2Co 13:5 Test yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Examine yourselves! Or don’t you know yourselves—that Messiah Yeshua is in you? Unless of course you failed the test.

Indeed, it seems the time has come for us to part ways. This has become too personal, and I realize that I allowed you to overstep your boundaries into mine with harsh and hurtful words. Such interactions are not good for my soul.

I believe it would be beneficial to review certain members here to determine whether they are adequately equipped for online discussions regarding the Word of God.

J.

 

[Taken]

Contradicts Scripture AND the trinity doctrine (which is inherently contradictory). God cannot be:

1. A 3 member committee.
2. One member of the committee is fully God.

You are ignoring the “little by little”; “bit by bit”….Scriptural INTRODUCTION “OF” God….
AND “OF” manKIND.

God - Invisible, Names, Titles, Kingdom, Throne, Creations, Makings;
Omnipotent- All Powerful
Omnipresent- All Places
Omniscience- All Knowing

Us, Our………….….Gen 1:26
I …………………..…..Gen 1:29
Spirit …………….….Gen: 1:2
Said…………….…....Gen: 1:3
My Spirit……….…..Gen. 6:3
I ”even” l….Gen 6:17
Equal……….Phil 2:6
All souls “mine”….Ezek 18:4
My Spirit in your heart…Gen 36:27
Seven Spirits OF God Rev:1:4
ARE…One ”SAME” Spirit…1 Cor 12:11

God IN Heaven….Whole…Body, Soul, Spirit…
God Anywhere….Whole…(Body, Soul, Spirit)….with multiple Names, Titles, Descriptions, Intents, Agendas, Offerings, Giving, Taking, RE-MAKING, KEEPING, Destroying, Works TO ACCOMPLISH!

Gods WORD ON Earth..Gods Son; Lord Jesus
Gods SPIRIT ON Earth..Gods Power; Christ

3 things EQUAL ONE Whole God..
3 things EQUAL ONE Whole Person.

ManKIND… 3 things = ONE Person
Natural Dust Formed Body..called MAN, mortal (Must) Die
Given a Spiritual Soul..Belongs to God
Body with Soul Called A Person.
Natural Spirit..natural hearts Truth (develops over time)….can be “RE-BORN” from Gods Seed…or Not, and Die with its Body.

If you can NOT understand…the Natural THREE PARTS Body, Soul, Spirit) of ONE MAN…
How do you Have an EXPECTATION to Understand the THREE Spiritual Parts (Body, Soul, Spirit) OF God?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Brakelite]

Because everything stated in Hebrews means nothing if he already had those things beforehand!

• Angels – Hebrews 1:4
  "Having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs."
• Moses – Hebrews 3:3-6
  "For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses... For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God."
• The High Priests – Hebrews 4:14-15
  "Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin."
• The Old Covenant – Hebrews 7:22; 8:6
  "This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant." "But as it is, Christ has obtained a ministry that is as much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better."
• The Sacrifices of the Old Covenant – Hebrews 9:11-14
  "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent... he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption."
• The Law – Hebrews 10:1-10
  "For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near."
• The Old Sacrificial System – Hebrews 10:11-14
  "And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God."
• The Tabernacle – Hebrews 9:11
  "But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, he entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation."
• The Blood of Animals – Hebrews 9:12
  "He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption."
• The Old Prophets – Hebrews 1:1-2
  "Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son..."
• The Old Priesthood (Levitical Priesthood) – Hebrews 7:11-28
  "Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?"

@Johann Again, Jesus needed to be made a Priest under a different order to enter the Heavenly Temple! He could not do so of the physical one on earth!


I just did by using most of Hebrews

God (Yahweh) will never contract His Glory - you know this to be true but you fail to acknowlegde it. Moses understood this, as did Jesus himself - the Apostle did also.

He did not live prior to his birth!

Correct, he was always the Son of God (declared) but while in the flesh Jesus knew he had to overcome it before he could ascend as the Son of God with Power.

You should conform your understanding to Romans 1 as I have

1:3 concerning his Son who was a descendant of David with reference to the flesh, 1:4 who was appointed the Son-of-God-in-power according to the Holy Spirit by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord Ro 1:3–4.

See the progression?
I know you do but how often do you ever reply with honest acknowledgement?


Christ was the creation He had in mind before the foundation of this physical heavens and earth. Which is why it can be said:

Revelation 13:8 (KJV):

"And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

The Lamb was not literally slain at that point, but God, in having/wanting a Son, understood the immense cost of granting creation free will. Knowing that sin would enter the world, He began His creative work with this plan already in mind.

Acts 2:23 "Him (Jesus), being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

If you held a better understanding of His Foreknowledge you would see the Grand Design of a Creation centred on A Beloved Son.

F2F

Such hard work for you to ignore all the scriptures that directly state, without equivocation, that all things were created by God’s Word, His Son.

 

[Taken]

REV
And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he ceased from all his work that creating, God had done.

Did you look up how created and made are synonyms?

BTW, the conjunction is the word between, “and.” Look that up also.

And is the conjunction!
And is revealing something about TWO different Things possessive OF ONE Thing!

Body
Soul
Spirit
Different things OF One being., be That The Invisible God without Beginning…or Created and Made manKind (IN Gods LIKENESS) with a Beginning!

You will NEVER “understand” such understanding coming FROM A MAN…
Spiritual UNDERSTANDING …comes to A MAN ONLY FROM God.



Glory to God,
Taken

 

[APAK]

Correct, best to accept the majority view of the Apostles!

2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all people. Tt 2:11.

A salvation in Christ Whom He raised from the dead!


Christ will represent Him as he did in the Flesh he will do in the Spirit!

Only created beings can contract their glory, to appear as men. Jesus can do this because he is not Yahweh God. Angels and Saints will be able to do the same as they are created beings.

Only here in this verse do we see God (Almighty) dwelling with man.

1 Corinthians 15:28 (ESV):

"When all things are subjected to him (God), then the Son himself will also be subjected to him (God) who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all."

Only when flesh is completely gone from the Earth can God truly dwell in us!

"And it shall come to pass, while My glory passeth by"

Through His angel, Yahweh proposed that there should be a full manifestation of glory as was seen in the Lord of glory at his first advent (John 1:14).

The example of Moses (Exod 33:22) combined with Pauls testimony in (1 Tim 6:16)

--------------------"That I will put you (Moses) in a clift of the rock"-----------------------------------------

The cleft in which Moses was sheltered symbolized the divine presence in its sacrificial form. This was ultimately revealed in Christ, whose person, character, and salvation alone manifest the glory of Yahweh (see John 17:5-6, 26). It is likely this glory that Moses longed to see and, in type, experienced, for he saw the invisible (Hebrews 11:27). All who look upon the Lord Jesus with the right understanding witness the glory of Yahweh and find refuge in the cleft rock (see Song 2:14).

When God said, "And will cover thee with My hand while I pass by,"

He protected Moses from the full effect of His glory, because sinful flesh cannot behold it and survive. The pure glory of Yahweh accentuates the reality of sin, revealing personal shortcomings that all, except Christ, are guilty of. Therefore, all need such a covering (Deuteronomy 33:29; Psalm 91:1-4). In Christ, who is symbolized by the cleft rock, it becomes possible to view the glory of Yahweh, though it remains partially hidden from our current perspective.

"And I will take away Mine hand, and thou shalt see My back parts"

This is literally expressed as "My back". Moses was permitted to see only as much of the divine glory as he was able to bear: the fulness is manifested in Christ (2 Cor. 4:6-7), to be revealed in the earth in due time (Eze. 43:1-2).

"But My face shall not be seen" — 20; John 1:18; I Tim. 6:16; John 4:12.

@Wrangler @APAK because they fail to see the One True Almighty God they do not know this in Exodus
33:20 But he added, “You cannot see my face, for no one can see me and live.”

This has not changed!

Why is it that Brakelite with all his musings cannot see what is plainly written in front of him?

The Lord Jesus Christ is not this GOD! This God is beyond us though he condescended through a Son He is still an unchanging God Who dwells in light unapproachable who no man can see (and live)

F2F

I agree F2F that the common underlining spiritual logic and foundation of such scripture and intent in this exchange of this post is that 'our great God' represents strictly God's agent, representing God, aka Jesus the Christ. And it is of course the his agent is the one who will eventually return the Kingdom to his Father, our great God, and not the Father himself.

Thomas's remarkable expression as in Titus (2:13) did/were the same thing using similar expressions of 'my lord and my (great) God' if you will. Jesus directly was the intended target and inferred his God at the same time; because Thomas finally realized that our great God raised him, his Son from the dead after he was fully convinced of it; he identified the true roles of each separate person. He most probably knew the impact of seeing Christ with his flesh cavities more than his brethren in the end.

@Brakelite I cannot agree with your assessment on this topic, sorry bro....

 

[Wrangler]

It is, and it will ultimately be revealed as one of the most destructive forces in the world.

Getting back to juxtaposition, I wonder how trinitarians explain how the narrative switches subject from Jesus to God. The Gospel of Luke ends with:

Jesus led them to Bethany ... And they spent all of their time in the Temple, praising God.​

In ordinary textual criticism, this indicates 2 different people. Jack led them to Bethan ... and they spent all their time praising how good Jill looked in her stunning dress. No one would claim they were praising Jack's looks.

If Jesus were God, why switch from one to the other and do it throughout the Scriptures?

 

[Taken]

The trinity is the greatest example of IDOLATRY in human history.

Exalting, Praising, Worshiping the:
Lord God Almighty…
Lord Jesus…
Father God…
Christ Almighty…

Is understood (Carnally Logically Concluded)
IN YOUR natural MIND….IS “IDOLATRY”?

Those WHO “concluded” the SAME as You…
ARE They who gathered before The ROMAN Judaea Governor Pilate AND ROMAN Emperor Tiberius SHOUTING CRUCIFY HIM”!!!

You didn’t live during those DAYS….but IF You HAD…”seems quite Apparent You would have been IN Agreement with those Shouting Crucify Him…and NOT in agreement with Those saddened THEIR Holy, Sinless, Lords “Prepared” Body, God IN the Flesh LIKENESS “AS” an Earthly man was Beaten and Nailed to a Cross.

“AS” a Human man…”IS” a Human Man…Not the Same thing.

Human body’s came from Dust of the Earth.
Jesus’ Prepared Body came From Heaven!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Wrangler]

Which is why i cannot accept the traditional creedal trinity.

Yet, you still consider yourself a trinitarian, right?

Doesn't mean however that i reject the Father, Son, and holy Spirit.

No one rejects the 2 different Beings of Jesus and his God or the attribute of God's spirit, which is holy. Scripture says explicitly and repeatedly only the Father is God. Why do you disregard this?

therefore before creation was the only begotten Son of God.

Begotten means created. Jesus being created before anything else does not make him not a creation of his God.

was the only begotten Son of God.

No-one has yet presented to me overwhelming biblical evidence that contradicts the above.

You deny the overwhelming Biblical evidence. Isn't it true that all first borns are the only child until other children come along? Jesus is the firstborn of all creation. This means like to follow. Same with first fruits.

mic drop

Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

1 Corinthians 15:23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Why would Scripture talk about Jesus being a first if he was the only? Being born of God is a point that @Ritajanice has made many times in this thread. Just dismiss or ignore it.

 

[Ritajanice]

Why would Scripture talk about Jesus being a first if he was the only? Being born of God is a point that @Ritajanice has made many times in this thread. Just dismiss or ignore it.

Not sure what you are saying here @Wrangler ?

We are Born Of God’s seed....?...how else can we be regenerated?

Mary became pregnant by the seed of God, by what other means could she become pregnant?

A Living seed grows?..the Holy Spirit is a Living seed...when planted by God in our spirit, it will start to grow?

Born Again of imperishable seed?...

Jesus was the Son Of God, we are his spirit children?...when we become Born Again,our spirit is Alive in Christ.

9But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Our spirit is in the righteousness of Christ..my words RJ.

 

[David in NJ]

Exalting, Praising, Worshiping the:
Lord God Almighty…
Lord Jesus…
Father God…
Christ Almighty…

Is understood (Carnally Logically Concluded)
IN YOUR natural MIND….IS “IDOLATRY”?

Those WHO “concluded” the SAME as You…
ARE They who gathered before The ROMAN Judaea Governor Pilate AND ROMAN Emperor Tiberius SHOUTING CRUCIFY HIM”!!!

You didn’t live during those DAYS….but IF You HAD…”seems quite Apparent You would have been IN Agreement with those Shouting Crucify Him…and NOT in agreement with Those saddened THEIR Holy, Sinless, Lords “Prepared” Body, God IN the Flesh LIKENESS “AS” an Earthly man was Beaten and Nailed to a Cross.

“AS” a Human man…”IS” a Human Man…Not the Same thing.

Human body’s came from Dust of the Earth.
Jesus’ Prepared Body came From Heaven!

Glory to God,
Taken

Exalting, Praising, Worshiping the:
Lord God Almighty…
Lord Jesus…
Father God…
Christ Almighty…

You brought GREAT JOY to my heart Today because you SEE

The Angels KNOW and therefore they sing:
HOLY HOLY HOLY
LORD GOD ALMIGHTY

 

[Wrangler]

Let's take a moment to examine John 1:30. John is a witness and he is testifying of the prophet they were expecting (v21). He says of this expected prophet

A man is coming after me who is far greater than I am​

Why denigrate God incarnate if he is merely a man, who is the expected prophet? Also, it is hugely lacking in humility for John to compare himself to God (incarnate). Sure, he says this man, this expected prophet, is greater than him but he is directly comparing one man to another man. He is not comparing a man to God incarnate as trinitarians demand 1:1 to mean.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's take a moment to examine John 1:34 in light of trinitarians demand to interpret John 1:1 imbued with trinitarian significance.
I saw this happen to Jesus, so I testify that he is the Chosen One OF God

Why add the words son OF or the Chosen One OF? Why not simply says he is God? Because he is NOT God but OF God. Language Usage. The reason you say something is yours is because it is yours. The reason you say something is OF a thing is because it is not that thing but belongs to that thing, e.g., Trump of Mar-a-Lago.

These verses show the desperation trinitarians have to impose trinitarian doctrine onto unitarian text. It's absurd to claim in the same chapter that Jesus is a man Chosen by God to be the expected prophet and God at the same time.

 

[Wrangler]

Mary became pregnant by the seed of God, by what other means could she become pregnant?

I would never presume to limit the almighty Sovereign God's creative capability.

"Seed" is a euphemism in Scripture for sperm. Some claim Mary was merely a surrogate and the seed of God never came to her egg. There is evidence to support this. Blood on Shroud of Turin Has Only 23 Chromosomes.

 

[Ritajanice]

Let's take a moment to examine John 1:30. John is a witness and he is testifying of the prophet they were expecting (v21). He says of this expected prophet

A man is coming after me who is far greater than I am​

Why denigrate God incarnate if he is merely a man, who is the expected prophet? Also, it is hugely lacking in humility for John to compare himself to God (incarnate). Sure, he says this man, this expected prophet, is greater than him but he is directly comparing one man to another man. He is not comparing a man to God incarnate as trinitarians demand 1:1 to mean.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's take a moment to examine John 1:34 in light of trinitarians demand to interpret John 1:1 imbued with trinitarian significance.
I saw this happen to Jesus, so I testify that he is the Chosen One OF God

Why add the words son OF or the Chosen One OF? Why not simply says he is God? Because he is NOT God but OF God. Language Usage. The reason you say something is yours is because it is yours. The reason you say something is OF a thing is because it is not that thing but belongs to that thing, e.g., Trump of Mar-a-Lago.

These verses show the desperation trinitarians have to impose trinitarian doctrine onto unitarian text. It's absurd to claim in the same chapter that Jesus is a man Chosen by God to be the expected prophet and God at the same time.

I don’t think anyone is desperate at proving the validity of the trinity, or the non validity of the trinity, we’re all just discussing the subject matter.

I don’t think either way can be proved, it’s just interesting to discuss from all points of view using scripture.

That’s my opinion anyway.

 

[Wrangler]

I don’t think either way can be proved

There are many proofs the trinity is false. 1st, It's not in Scripture. It's complete absence from God's revealed word is proof enough for it is not that Scripture says nothing on the subject of God's nature!

It contradicts Scripture.

P1. God is the Father (alone). John 17:1-3, 1 Cor 8:6 and every Epistle.​

P2. Jesus is not the Father.​

C. Jesus is NOT God.​

Jesus nature is not God's nature (different essences)

P1. God never dies (is eternal and unchanging). Isaiah 40:28, 1 Timothy 1:17​

P2. Jesus (was born, grew, became weary and) died.​

C. Jesus is NOT God.​